2014 Pirelli Hungarian Grand Prix

[jtv90069]

No, or was that your point?

Nope, that was my point, just pointing out the contradiction in the argument .

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

You don't seem to realize how much you compromise your argument by ignoring how much more weight(in a vaccum) a reigning 4 time WDC struggling carried than 2007 WDC struggling carries.
If WDCs struggling is the core of your argument RBR is clearly the ****tiest car in the field.

Really cause it seems like grasping at straws. The season and cars are different from last year every one is on a new slate and driving styles have to change. If the two cars were really tied as you claim to think they are then Kimi should be or should have beaten Vettel on more occassions. You want me to cut Kimi slack and talk about a spin here and spin there yet I feel if I bring up how Vettel's spin and compromising the tires earlier then what they seemed to want basically helped Kimi get ahead you'd take that wrongly too.

So it's quite confusing you don't want me to give Alonso credit for a great job in the Ferrari but you want me to give Kimi that acknowledgement since he has basically been up the hill and back through rain and snow?

Uh no it's not the core of my argument and you may want to revise your post, I'm pretty sure that isn't a word the mods would like us to use. You know AUP and all that.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Team order situation shouldn't even have happened at all, Lewis got put on a strategy that compromised the chances of him winning and only reason why Nico got close to him. They should have not asked him to move over at all given it is was their mistake that put him struggling for pace when he had new fresh Soft tyres he could have used while his competitors did not have as good option but still went for that tyre.

 

[craigatm]

Other than you finally saying you haven't seen it before that who is to know? You didn't initially come out and say it and if you did (show me) then sorry but I didn't see it. People come here commenting on the race because they've seen it, and actually know what's going on.

You have got to be kidding me? I said I didn't actually see it in my very first post about the incident...

Not gonna lie, I didn't actually see it. But I wouldn't be surprised to hear that Lewis pushed Nico off the track whenever he tried to pass; just like in Bahrain. As I said earlier, he is no saint himself.

As for the comments before that, they were about the radio incidents. And seeing as I was commenting only about how peoples reactions to radio calls seem to vary on which driver makes them, I don't see how I had to hear them either.

 

[tribolik]

I feel really gutted for Jenson because now I see (as Bruno explains it) that if that tire choice wasn't done that could have been his race win potentially.

Yeah and if my grandmother had four wheels... she could have been a race car...

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Team order situation shouldn't even have happened at all, Lewis got put on a strategy that compromised the chances of him winning and only reason why Nico got close to him. They should have not asked him to move over at all given it is was their mistake that put him struggling for pace when he had new fresh Soft tyres he could have used while his competitors did not have as good option but still went for that tyre.

How did it compromise? Lewis was put on a gambling strategy and Nico didn't have much option considering the tires he ended with were used. Thus if Lewis had let him pass (looking at this from team perspective) it could have helped Nico further and Lewis would have gained the spot back since he was never coming back to pit again.

However, now you have to take in the factor of the driver in the team, he knows that if he let's Nico past he'll have fresher tires to the end and be a viable threat to Lewis as far as race podium (or win) and WDC points go. Because at this point I doubt Lewis and Nico care about a WCC that is basically shrink wrapped for MGP.

So I see both perspectives and I think for Lewis he mad the best choice, for the team no. That's just the reality

Yeah and if my grandmother had four wheels... she could have been a race car...

Well yeah but who would driver her

 

[tribolik]

How did it compromise? Lewis was put on a gambling strategy and Nico didn't have much option considering the tires he ended with were used. Thus if Lewis had let him pass (looking at this from team perspective) it could have helped Nico further and Lewis would have gained the spot back since he was never coming back to pit again.

However, now you have to take in the factor of the driver in the team, he knows that if he let's Nico past he'll have fresher tires to the end and be a viable threat to Lewis as far as race podium (or win) and WDC points go. Because at this point I doubt Lewis and Nico care about a WDC that is basically shrink wrapped for MGP.

So I see both perspectives and I think for Lewis he mad the best choice, for the team no. That's just the reality


Well yeah but who would driver her

Probably my grandfather....

 

[Peasantslayer]

@LMSCorvetteGT2 Lewis was put on the harder tyres whilst Nico had 2 shorter stints on the soft which was clearly the best option, Lewis had plenty of fresh softs but for whatever reason he was given the hards.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

You have got to be kidding me? I said I didn't actually see it in my very first post about the incident...


As for the comments before that, they were about the radio incidents. And seeing as I was commenting only about how peoples reactions to radio calls seem to vary on which driver makes them, I don't see how I had to hear them either.

Like I said just show me and I'll apologize, I am sorry for saying otherwise. I thought you I saw comments from you prior to that about today's race that didn't indicate it hence why I said what I said. Also don't take it personally I was just asking and you seem to have an attitude over internet banter.

Once again sorry, didn't mean to seem mean if that's the idea you got.

EDIT:

Wait so you did make comments before saying you haven't seen the race? If so it would still indicate to me that you were watching the race in real time thus commenting on it...now you've got me confused.

@LMSCorvetteGT2 Lewis was put on the harder tyres whilst Nico had 2 shorter stints on the soft which was clearly the best option.

I know that. Which is why I initially said he should move over for Nico if all he was going to do was hold him up and burn up his tires before going to the end. However, Lewis didn't do that and Nico just didn't have the pace as the telemetry showed so to me Lewis was in the right to not move over.

Also at the end of the day I had to realize this is a WDC they're going for they really couldn't care less about the WCC.

Probably my grandfather....

I don't want to know anything about the sir, but good back and forth

 

[Saidur_Ali]

How did it compromise? Lewis was put on a gambling strategy and Nico didn't have much option considering the tires he ended with were used. Thus if Lewis had let him pass (looking at this from team perspective) it could have helped Nico further and Lewis would have gained the spot back since he was never coming back to pit again.

However, now you have to take in the factor of the driver in the team, he knows that if he let's Nico past he'll have fresher tires to the end and be a viable threat to Lewis as far as race podium (or win) and WDC points go. Because at this point I doubt Lewis and Nico care about a WDC that is basically shrink wrapped for MGP.

So I see both perspectives and I think for Lewis he mad the best choice, for the team no. That's just the reality


Well yeah but who would driver her

You only have to look how close Nico was to Lewis before he made his final pitstop and after to see Lewis was heavily compromised. Lewis pitted few laps after Nico for Mediums instead of brand new soft tyres, the two cars that beat him were soft. Lewis had slow pace and not very good tyre life on the Mediums. The lead car which Lewis was should not have been in such a poor position of struggling to defend against Nico when he should have finished ahead of him probably by a good margin.

Lewis had the best options on tyres compared to rest of grid yet they made least use of cars pace. I do think drivers do care about WDC, maybe you are on about WCC . If Mercedes mirrored what they did for Nico with Lewis, first of all Nico would not have been held up and both would have catched Fernando at serious pace.

 

[craigatm]

Like I said just show me and I'll apologize, I am sorry for saying otherwise. I thought you I saw comments from you prior to that about today's race that didn't indicate it hence why I said what I said. Also don't take it personally I was just asking and you seem to have an attitude over internet banter.

Once again sorry, didn't mean to seem mean if that's the idea you got.

EDIT:

Wait so you did make comments before saying you haven't seen the race? If so it would still indicate to me that you were watching the race in real time thus commenting on it...now you've got me confused.

The comments I made before I said I wasn't watching in real time, were simply about how peoples reactions to drivers behaviour on the radio differ depending on the driver. Seeing as I saw detailed descriptions of the radio activity on this thread, before I posted. But even then it wasn't about the nature of the radio calls themselves; just how I felt some peoples reactions were biased. At no point did I give off the impression (or intend to give off the impression), that I was watching it in real time.

 

[Dhalism]

Really cause it seems like grasping at straws. The season and cars are different from last year every one is on a new slate and driving styles have to change. If the two cars were really tied as you claim to think they are then Kimi should be or should have beaten Vettel on more occassions. You want me to cut Kimi slack and talk about a spin here and spin there yet I feel if I bring up how Vettel's spin and compromising the tires earlier then what they seemed to want basically helped Kimi get ahead you'd take that wrongly too.

So it's quite confusing you don't want me to give Alonso credit for a great job in the Ferrari but you want me to give Kimi that acknowledgement since he has basically been up the hill and back through rain and snow?

Uh no it's not the core of my argument and you may want to revise your post, I'm pretty sure that isn't a word the mods would like us to use. You know AUP and all that.

soo super done with this nonsense. The reality of the situation is that Ferrari, RBR and Williams have all been finishing batched up, are all close in points, and are all having close wheel to wheel battles.

But of course if your only goal is to judge Alonso by an off-form Kimi, that's your right.

 

[neljack]

A few things observed from some comments.

The majority seem to agree Hamilton shouldn't have let Rosberg through. At the end of the day they still scored more points than any other team and have an insane advantage in the WCC. Let them race.

On the subject of Hamilton forcing Rosberg wide, the day that becomes penalty worthy I'll simply just give up on F1. Get a grip folks.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

You only have to look how close Nico was to Lewis before he made his final pitstop and after to see Lewis was heavily compromised. Lewis pitted few laps after Nico for Mediums instead of brand new soft tyres, the two cars that beat him were soft. Lewis had slow pace and not very good tyre life on the Mediums. The lead car which Lewis was should not have been in such a poor position of struggling to defend against Nico when he should have finished ahead of him probably by a good margin.

That's quite skewed for a few reasons. One Ric had tires that were only a few laps older than Rosberg he was going to catch those two no matter what. Second the tires Alonso were on were older than Hamilton's I think and were a softer compound. He had less grip than Lewis as the end of the race. Third, Lewis was told by race engineer to maintain a gap of 10 seconds between him and Alonso, with this in mind to prepare for Alonso to make one more stop.Meaning that Lewis would get the lead and then be able to make a gap for himself between him and the fresher tire cars but Alonso never came in. Even Ferrari weren't sure of their own move and were quite happy it worked out in the end.

If Lewis had come in for another stop it may have gone the way of Ric or he may have ended up placing off the podium, I think for what it's worth and considering where he started...

Lewis had the best options on tyres compared to rest of grid yet they made least use of cars pace. I do drivers do care about WDC, maybe you are on about WCC . If Mercedes mirrored what they did for Nico with Lewis, first of all Nico would not have been held up and both would have catched Fernando at serious pace.

I agree he did have the best option. I disagree they didn't make use of his pace, the guy was quick it was just the last 28 laps to ensure a podium that he wasn't nearly as fast as the first stint obviously.

Um I know drivers care about the WDC...what I said was that MGP wanted him to let Nico past because they probably knew he could get the win and thus increase the WCC lead. So are you saying if rolls were reversed Lewis would have driven past Rosberg without asking for him to pull over?

The comments I made before I said I wasn't watching in real time, were simply about how peoples reactions to drivers behaviour on the radio differ depending on the driver. Seeing as I saw detailed descriptions of the radio activity on this thread, before I posted. But even then it wasn't about the nature of the radio calls themselves; just how I felt some peoples reactions were biased. At no point did I give off the impression (or intend to give off the impression), that I was watching it in real time.

If you didn't intend to I understand hence why I apologized because your initial comments seemed to be in relation to me on how you yourself perceived them and thus how you didn't like the bias. Perhaps because you couldn't hear or see where it was coming from, later on you say you weren't actually watching the race so I was confused as to why comment because initially it seemed as if you were.

soo super done with this nonsense. The reality of the situation is that Ferrari, RBR and Williams have all been finishing batched up, are all close in points, and are all having close wheel to wheel battles.

But of course if your only goal is to judge Alonso by an off-form Kimi, that's your right.

No you're not done, show me where I make a comment about Williams at all in my posts, they haven't been edited since you made that claim and if they had the mods can check the original rhetoric from me. Don't make a claim and then back out of it when you can't substantiate it because you lack the ability to properly counter argue.

I'm not standing up for Alonso the reality is he did a great drive in a not so great car, on tires that shouldn't have lasted as long as they did. The RBR is getting close to a 100 points ahead of Ferrari, that isn't close. The fight for third however is quite close with three merc powered teams on the heels of Ferrari one of them only 7 points behind, the other two are 44 and 45. Which is why I say McLaren have a better chance of catching Ferrari than Ferrari do of RBR.

 

[Dhalism]

No you're not done

Ohohoho

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Ohohoho

You misquoted me so either you retract the claim you made and apologize or show me this quote. But don't misquote me and then run away as if that's okay to do.

 

[Dhalism]

You misquoted me so either you retract the claim you made and apologize or show me this quote. But don't misquote me and then run away as if that's okay to do.

you misquoted me in about every single post you made. I demand a meet at noon under the clocktower.
Grow up.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

That's quite skewed for a few reasons. One Ric had tires that were only a few laps older than Rosberg he was going to catch those two no matter what. Second the tires Alonso were on were older than Hamilton's I think and were a softer compound. He had less grip than Lewis as the end of the race. Third, Lewis was told by race engineer to maintain a gap of 10 seconds between him and Alonso, with this in mind to prepare for Alonso to make one more stop.Meaning that Lewis would get the lead and then be able to make a gap for himself between him and the fresher tire cars but Alonso never came in. Even Ferrari weren't sure of their own move and were quite happy it worked out in the end.

If Lewis had come in for another stop it may have gone the way of Ric or he may have ended up placing off the podium, I think for what it's worth and considering where he started...



I agree he did have the best option. I disagree they didn't make use of his pace, the guy was quick it was just the last 28 laps to ensure a podium that he wasn't nearly as fast as the first stint obviously.

Um I know drivers care about the WDC...what I said was that MGP wanted him to let Nico past because they probably knew he could get the win and thus increase the WCC lead. So are you saying if rolls were reversed Lewis would have driven past Rosberg without asking for him to pull over?

Look how close Nico finished to Fernando in the end. Lewis only threat was Nico for podium, Lewis would have something like 7 laps or more fresher Soft tyres than Nico and a good gap to Nico so it would be have been easy pickings for Lewis if they went with Softs for Lewis to overtake Fernando like Daniel managed. Lewis did his fastest lap on heavily used Soft tyres and with a lot of fuel onboard, quite telling he did not manage to beat that lap time in the race. That shows how compromised he was in the end that Nico was a threat to Lewis and Lewis struggling to beat a Ferrari on pace. They could even have recovered the situation by asking Lewis to pit again for Soft tyres as rate Mercedes came back at Fernando with Nico, they both would likely finished ahead of Fernando.

You said drivers don't care about WDC in your post hence why I mentioned it.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

you misquoted me in about every single post you made. I demand a meet at noon under the clocktower.
Grow up.

How did I misquote you? Show me like @OctopusPine did and I'll apologize. However, not getting your point across correctly and saying two different things like you did is entirely your fault and not the same as misquoting

The fact that you didn't want to clear it up or anything is just back out tells me perhaps you didn't have a complete thought on the matter or something else, it has nothing to do with growing up but intellectual respect. If I did misquote you then show me and I will happily apologize.

 

[Roflwaffle]

WTF does this have to do with Formula 1?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Look how close Nico finished to Fernando in the end. Lewis only threat was Nico for podium, Lewis would have something like 7 laps or more fresher Soft tyres than Nico and a good gap to Nico so it would be have been easy pickings for Lewis if they went with Softs for Lewis to overtake Fernando like Daniel managed. Lewis did his fastest lap on heavily used Soft tyres and with a lot of fuel onboard, quite telling he did not manage to beat that lap time in the race. That shows how compromised he was in the end that Nico was a threat to Lewis and Lewis struggling to beat a Ferrari on pace. They could even have recovered the situation by asking Lewis to pit again for Soft tyres as rate Mercedes came back at Fernando with Nico, they both would likely finished ahead of Fernando.

You said drivers don't care about WDC in your post hence why I mentioned it.

I agree, in the end it was always going to be Nico if he had as fresh of tires as him. I can't deny that. However, we don't know if he would have been able to catch and pass Ric for the win had Alonso stayed out like he did and Lewis came in.

Also Nico finished close because Fernando was at times 4 seconds slower a lap than Rosberg. Also I think it was easy for Daniel to pass Alonso because in that moment I think Alonso was content with just the podium finish and the only way to have that happen was to let Ric by and not fight him in such a weak state to where Lewis and then eventually Nico would pass him.

If Lewis had gone in he would be the one having to claw from back where Nico was also to try and get first and I doubt he would have beaten Ric and Rosberg even if his tires would have been slightly fresher. I still see him finishing where he did. And if that is the case then what's the point damned if they do and damned if they don't.

No I said the drivers don't care about WCC (ah I see I fixed it since it was a typo). Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I agree, in the end it was always going to be Nico if he had as fresh of tires as him. I can't deny that. However, we don't know if he would have been able to catch and pass Ric for the win had Alonso stayed out like he did and Lewis came in.

Also Nico finished close because Fernando was at times 4 seconds slower a lap than Rosberg. Also I think it was easy for Daniel to pass Alonso because in that moment I think Alonso was content with just the podium finish and the only way to have that happen was to let Ric by and not fight him in such a weak state to where Lewis and then eventually Nico would pass him.

If Lewis had gone in he would be the one having to claw from back where Nico was also to try and get first and I doubt he would have beaten Ric and Rosberg even if his tires would have been slightly fresher. I still see him finishing where he did. And if that is the case then what's the point damned if they do and damned if they don't.

No I said the drivers don't care about WCC (ah I see I fixed it since it was a typo). Thanks for pointing that out.

Daniel would have been hard to beat as Lewis was only reason why he was getting held up for so long but Fernando would have been easier for Lewis I imagine as if he managed to get track position with Softs, he would be on fresher tyres than Fernando till the end even if he never pitted again with the far superior car.

Daniel simply overtaked Fernando easily due to grip advantage as well as DRS that there was no hope for Fernando to hold such a pace advantage off. Lewis was very slow on Mediums, slower than his used Soft pace so that allowed Fernando to stay ahead of him.

Why would he have to claw back to where Nico was as he would be ahead on same strategy as Nico.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Daniel would have been hard to beat as Lewis was only reason why he was getting held up for so long but Fernando would have been easier for Lewis I imagine as if he managed to get track position with Softs, he would be on fresher tyres than Fernando till the end even if he never pitted again with the far superior car.

Yeah I said that in my last post.

Daniel simply overtaked Fernando easily due to grip advantage as well as DRS that there was no hope for Fernando to hold such a pace advantage off. Lewis was very slow on Mediums, slower than his used Soft pace so that allowed Fernando to stay ahead of him.

Well Fernando stayed ahead because they both had bad grip and it is easy to defend in Belgium because there isn't many passing opportunities, also I think Lewis was more concerned with the threat of Nico.

Why would he have to claw back to where Nico was as he would be ahead on same strategy as Nico.

How would he have been ahead? If he pitted he would have ended up behind Nico and thus still finished third, look at where Nico ended up after that pit stop and being right behind Lewis before pitting.

 

[MUSC4EVER]

Absolutely brilliant race! 👍👍👍

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Yeah I said that in my last post.



Well Fernando stayed ahead because they both had bad grip and it is easy to defend in Belgium because there isn't many passing opportunities, also I think Lewis was more concerned with the thread of Nico.



How would he have been ahead? If he pitted he would have ended up behind Nico and thus still finished third, look at where Nico ended up after that pit stop and being right behind Lewis before pitting.

I don't see you say that in your last post, Lewis would have just finished where he was which seems what you were saying.

It is in Hungary the race. Lewis could have good grip, team compromised him which is the point. Nico was not going to be a threat if Lewis was put on Softs like him.

Let me think, Lewis would have been on much newer tyres than Nico with a healthy margin, if Nico decides to not stop again, Lewis will have benefit of newer tyres and gap to Nico to hold him off, if Nico decides to pit again, Lewis can decide to pit first on new tyres again and open up a bigger advantage to him.

 

[jtv90069]

Their respective pace at the end doesn't matter, after 17 or so laps Rosberg was 5th and Hamilton 7th, yet Hamilton finished ahead of Rosberg so how is it a worse strategy? Could have, should have, doesn't change what happened and it's all speculation.

 

[Nooboogering]

A few things observed from some comments.

The majority seem to agree Hamilton shouldn't have let Rosberg through. At the end of the day they still scored more points than any other team and have an insane advantage in the WCC. Let them race.

On the subject of Hamilton forcing Rosberg wide, the day that becomes penalty worthy I'll simply just give up on F1. Get a grip folks.

Hamilton watching Senna video's as a child sure had an impact on him.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I don't see you say that in your last post, Lewis would have just finished where he was which seems what you were saying.

If Lewis had gone in he would be the one having to claw from back where Nico was also to try and get first and I doubt he would have beaten Ric and Rosberg even if his tires would have been slightly fresher. I still see him finishing where he did. And if that is the case then what's the point damned if they do and damned if they don't.

That's where cause it most likely have been Ric-Ros-Ham as the finishing order for Podium. Once again MGP thought they were giving him the best chance at winning because they seemed to believe Alonso wouldn't try such a long stint on the softest compound tire for this weekend. Even if he did try they probably thought Lewis would be faster and have better grip in the long run but that too didn't work out.

It is in Hungary the race. Lewis could have good grip, team compromised him which is the point. Nico was not going to be a threat if Lewis was put on Softs like him.[/quote]

Sorry I got it mixed up with the 24h race I was watching along side this one. Still the point stands the Hungaroring doesn't give much passing areas. Also I know what your "point" is, but I still don't see how they compromised him. If they put him on softs he would have still finished third due to Daniel and Nico making earlier pit stops than him. Fernando would have had to defend against all three that were significantly faster. Those three would be on various grip levels that wouldn't be too far apart and you'd have gotten a Vergne-Rosberg-Vettel-Hamilton stalemate.

Let me think, Lewis would have been on much newer tyres than Nico with a healthy margin, if Nico decides to not stop again, Lewis will have benefit of newer tyres and gap to Nico to hold him off, if Nico decides to pit again, Lewis can decide to pit first on new tyres again and open up a bigger advantage to him.

...what? Why would Nico stop for a third or fourth time? This entire hypothetical makes no sense I'm afraid that's just not how it works. And I've already explained why before this.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Their respective pace at the end doesn't matter, after 17 or so laps Rosberg was 5th and Hamilton 7th, yet Hamilton finished ahead of Rosberg so how is it a worse strategy? Could have, should have, doesn't change what happened and it's all speculation.

Hamilton made his strategy when Vettel span due to pressure being put on him and overtaking Vergne which Rosberg didn't manage to do hence pitting. Then Lewis became the lead car as he had a pit stop on Rosberg and track position. What did they do, put him on medium tyres, only reason why Rosberg got close as Hamilton would have been something like on potentially more than 7 laps fresher soft tyres with track position over Rosberg and margin to him.

That's where cause it most likely have been Ric-Ros-Ham as the finishing order for Podium. Once again MGP thought they were giving him the best chance at winning because they seemed to believe Alonso wouldn't try such a long stint on the softest compound tire for this weekend. Even if he did try they probably thought Lewis would be faster and have better grip in the long run but that too didn't work out.

It is in Hungary the race. Lewis could have good grip, team compromised him which is the point. Nico was not going to be a threat if Lewis was put on Softs like him.

Sorry I got it mixed up with the 24h race I was watching along side this one. Still the point stands the Hungaroring doesn't give much passing areas. Also I know what your "point" is, but I still don't see how they compromised him. If they put him on softs he would have still finished third due to Daniel and Nico making earlier pit stops than him. Fernando would have had to defend against all three that were significantly faster. Those three would be on various grip levels that wouldn't be too far apart and you'd have gotten a Vergne-Rosberg-Vettel-Hamilton stalemate.



...what? Why would Nico stop for a third or fourth time? This entire hypothetical makes no sense I'm afraid that's just not how it works. And I've already explained why before this.

Again Lewis would have track position and better tyres than Rosberg so Nico would have to overtake Lewis on track with older tyres to finish ahead.

He pitted after I agree than Nico, but he came out ahead which is whole point, he would be on much fresher tyres than Nico and with track position. Only way Nico would finish ahead is if he could overtake Lewis while on older tyres.

 

[grrlpurple]

Fantastic race and a second race in a row where Lewis had dreadful qualifying luck but flew through the pack from the back with a damaged wing from the start of the race... wow