2015 F1 Mechanics/Aero; Design predictions to win the WCC/WDC. READ FIRST POST

[prisonermonkeys]

So, only two days of running left in this season and no word on the RBR engine deal or Renault's takeover of Lotus? I presumed these things would be resolved by today.

The two issues are linked, and it seems that by resolving one, the other was in jeopardy and vice versa:

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2015/...t-takeover-of-lotus-set-for-positive-outcome/

Announcement expected some time this week.

 

[TenEightyOne]

The two issues are linked, and it seems that by resolving one, the other was in jeopardy and vice versa:

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2015/...t-takeover-of-lotus-set-for-positive-outcome/

Announcement expected some time this week.

Ah, maybe the BBC report I linked a few days ago had more truth in it than the next report on the same site (which seemed contradictory) led me to believe.

The "wrangle" with Bernie is over the prize money, I understand. Does that mean that if Renault don't get the prize money from Lotus (and I'm not sure what the barrier to that might be) that they're holding the option of abandoning F1 altogether?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The "wrangle" with Bernie is over the prize money, I understand. Does that mean that if Renault don't get the prize money from Lotus (and I'm not sure what the barrier to that might be) that they're holding the option of abandoning F1 altogether?

As I understand it, Renault feel that they should be entitled to an additional slice of the prize money because of their long-term involvement in the sport. From the sounds of things, Bernie agrees; the point of difference is that he feels contributing as an engine supplier is not the same as contributing as a full manufacturer team, and so is not willing to offer the amount Renault have asked.

I don't know what happens to Lotus' prize money. I suspect that it will go back to Bernie and CVC, then paid out to Renault as the "historical contribution" bonus that they are asking for. The rules are complex and sound a bit silly, because to draw a parallel, the FIA still consider Manor to be Marussia, even though Marussia (either the racing team or road car manufacturer) no longer exist. But they are written that way to stop people buying a team cheaply, claiming the prize money, and then shutting the team down and selling it off. When there is a change of ownership, the prize money is frozen unless you commit to compete, and you have to do so under the team's original name.

And speaking of Manor, the F1 Commission debated a name change for the team at the same time as discussing the independent engine proposal. It will now be put to the World Motor Sport Council later this month (probably this week or next).

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I have been reading up a bit more, and it seems that Bernie wasn't impressed by Renault's new deal with Red Bull - he agreed to the historical payment, but then found out that Renault intend to charge Red Bull up to £30 million for engines in 2016, which Bernie thought amounted to double-dipping. When he moved to rescind the historical payments, Renault threatened to walk away entirely. Cyril Abiteboul says he has no problem with Bernie or CVC, but has hit out at Mercedes, accusing them of trying to enforce the status quo however they can to maintain their dominance.

 

[GTPorsche]

I guess there's a connection between him trying to overcharge Red Bull, and Mercedes wanting to keep status quo?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I guess there's a connection between him trying to overcharge Red Bull, and Mercedes wanting to keep status quo?

Yes. Renault feel that it's a case of all or nothing - they either have to commit as a full works effort, or walk away entirely. The middle ground of limiting their presence to an engine supply is unsustainable. Abiteboul has pretty much accused Mercedes of trying to keep costs where they are to protect their advantage because it will be too expensive for anyone to catch up. Ironically, Toto Wolff has warned Formula 1 is looking at an arms race unless something is done about costs, but despite their power as an engine supplier, they aren't doing much to stop that arms race from being realised.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Ironically, Toto Wolff has warned Formula 1 is looking at an arms race unless something is done about costs, but despite their power as an engine supplier, they aren't doing much to stop that arms race from being realised.

They don't spend all that money to become a charity... and what they voted against was a cheaper performance-balanced engine. I think that made all the primary manufacturers too nervous, probably understandably so.

Cost-capping never works if the teams are given control of their own finances, the only way to stop that is to have fixed customer engines for all teams. I can't see that happening although I'm not sure what other answers there are to the spiralling costs of (insert current F1 tech trend here).

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I think that made all the primary manufacturers too nervous, probably understandably so.

Maybe, but Abiteboul is implying that it's also hitting established manufacturers like Renault pretty hard, too. It's one thing to shoot down an independent engine supply; it's another thing entirely to maintain such a stranglehold that you make it impossible for major companies to compete.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

FIA confirms teams will get to choose two compounds out of three provided by Pirelli each weekend. Although there is no word on whether individual drivers within the same team can have different compounds.

Meanwhile, a switch to Honda power has been mooted for Sauber in 2017.

 

[AJ]

They also announced that Ferrari have been granted permission to supply a 4th customer team with a 2015 engine instead of a 2016 one.

Perhaps the biggest news to come out of today and the media seems to have missed it/forgotten how to count?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Todt and Ecclestonehave also been given greater powers to influence the regulations. I know that's likely to trigger a collective groan from the internet, but it could be a blessing in disguise - Todt in particular wants to crack down on costs spiralling out of control, but the teams have created a logjam for him. These new powers should help him make some progress.

Perhaps the biggest news to come out of today and the media seems to have missed it/forgotten how to count?

It was always going to happen. Ferrari have made it known for some time that the 2016 engine features significant updates to the 2015 design. The eleventh-hour deal with Toro Rosso meant that they would never be able to produce an additional allocation of 2016 engines in time.

 

[AJ]

Todt and Ecclestonehave also been given greater powers to influence the regulations. I know that's likely to trigger a collective groan from the internet, but it could be a blessing in disguise - Todt in particular wants to crack down on costs spiralling out of control, but the teams have created a logjam for him. These new powers should help him make some progress.


It was always going to happen. Ferrari have made it known for some time that the 2016 engine features significant updates to the 2015 design. The eleventh-hour deal with Toro Rosso meant that they would never be able to produce an additional allocation of 2016 engines in time.

Please count the number of customer teams using Ferrari PUs next year..

 

[catamount39]

Please count the number of customer teams using Ferrari PUs next year..

Haas
Sauber
Toro Rosso

Converts -
Manor GP, Mercedes

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Exactly - Ferrari are within the rules because although they pick up Toro Rosso, they lose Manor (or whatever they will be called).

 

[TenEightyOne]

They also announced that Ferrari have been granted permission to supply a 4th customer team with a 2015 engine instead of a 2016 one.

Perhaps the biggest news to come out of today and the media seems to have missed it/forgotten how to count?

Firstly, as @prisonermonkeys pointed out, Ferrari are no longer supplying "Manor". Secondly, the ruling can be superseded with an application to the FIA; rather like changing car or helmet liveries.

 

[mikeerfol]

I think what @AJ says is that there is an extra customer team besides Toro Rosso since they're talking about 4. It's got to be a mistake though...

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I think what @AJ says is that there is an extra customer team besides Toro Rosso since they're talking about 4. It's got to be a mistake though...

Ferrari's engine supply includes Ferrari. The same goes for every engine supplier - if they have a works team, that counts towards their total.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I think what @AJ says is that there is an extra customer team besides Toro Rosso since they're talking about 4. It's got to be a mistake though...

Ah, I couldn't find his source so presumed that he'd miscounted

 

[HKS racer]

Todt and Ecclestonehave also been given greater powers to influence the regulations.

Oh, I see what they did there.

Translated: "Ferrari will be defrauded in 2016 because they didn't give their 2016 PU to RBR and RBR will win 2017 championship."

Mark my words.

 

[mikeerfol]

Ferrari's engine supply includes Ferrari. The same goes for every engine supplier - if they have a works team, that counts towards their total.

Exactly. Ferrari is a works team, not a customer one.

 

[AJ]

Ferrari's engine supply includes Ferrari. The same goes for every engine supplier - if they have a works team, that counts towards their total.

Whist that could be one interpretation, it is not the one that jumps off the page, particularly given the current situation.

With the FIA you always have to go back to the original French;

une quatrième équipe cliente

My understanding is that that Ferrari's terms that were presented to RBT in the Autumn were a 2015 PU for RBR and a 2016 PU for STR.

The state of play is that RBR has compromised on the RB12's chassis to allow for either what seems now to be the 1st preference, a 2016 Spec, TAG badged and MI breathed (see CH's "Ron Dennis will be very annoyed" comment), Renault Sport PU.

Or a 2015 spec Ferrari PU, this is clear not desired but DM made it clear that keeping everyone employed in the short term (any not paying fines to BCE) was a priority.

It seems to me that this ruling has been requested in the event that Renault Sport decide not to continue into 2016.

As it stands Ferrari will be supplying the same number of teams with PUs as 2015, and if this was just about being able to sell old engines there would be no need to make any reference or stipulation to a '4th' team.



Sauce - http://www.fia.com/news/fia-announces-world-motor-sport-council-decisions-0

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Everyone's favourite journalist, Renault Confirmed is writing for Autosport again - they're convinced that the deal to buy Lotus is done.

Meanwhile, Red Bull have dropped a hint that their new engines will be rebadged as TAG.

My understanding is that that Ferrari's terms that were presented to RBT in the Autumn were a 2015 PU for RBR and a 2016 PU for STR.

Which was months ago, and required the deal to be finalised immediately, else they ran the risk of running out of time to manufact the extra 2016 engines.

 

[AJ]

Which was months ago, and required the deal to be finalised immediately, else they ran the risk of running out of time to manufact the extra 2016 engines.

That only makes sense if they have surplus 2015 engines lying around. They are still going to have to make extra engines, regardless of spec.





Disclamer - My previous post was written without knowledge of today's Autosport online headlines.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

That only makes sense if they have surplus 2015 engines lying around. They are still going to have to make extra engines, regardless of spec.

It's a different manufacturing process. They still have the means to produce 2015 engines alongside 2016 engines.

My previous post was written without knowledge of today's Autosport online headlines.

Mine, too. Stupid French journalists.

 

[NW48]

So it's official. Red Bull will use rebranded TAG Heuer Renault engines for 2016.

So there was a bit more behind TAG Heuer's move from McLaren to Red Bull after all...

 

[TenEightyOne]

Interesting. The timing of the engine announcement suggests that there was truth in the rumours that RBR couldn't confirm their "Renault" deal until Renault themselves had ironed out the Bernie-niggles with the Lotus purchase.

The deal's for one year only... now we can start speculating for 2017

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Has anyone mentioned that engine manufacturers will get more tokens to use for the next four seasons?

Previously there would've been just 25 tokens for next year, then dwindling down each year from 20, 15 and to 3 tokens in 2019. The amendment to the regulations now gives manufacturers 32 for 2016, then 25, 20 and 15 for the following three seasons.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Has anyone mentioned that engine manufacturers will get more tokens to use for the next four seasons?

Previously there would've been just 25 tokens for next year, then dwindling down each year from 20, 15 and to 3 tokens in 2019. The amendment to the regulations now gives manufacturers 32 for 2016, then 25, 20 and 15 for the following three seasons.

I think it was in one of the links a few posts ago. There were also be better token arrangements for new PU manufacturers. It remains to be seen whether Tag Heuer will be able to gain any benefit from that.

 

[Barra333]

It remains to be seen whether Tag Heuer will be able to gain any benefit from that.

I'm sure their long history of manufacturing car engines will put them in a strong position

 

[TenEightyOne]

I'm sure their long history of manufacturing car engines will put them in a strong position

Sadly the relationship between the (sometimes) awesome engine of the mid-eighties and the current Tag Heuer is in name only... and their history of "developing" the current Renault lump is, well, it's what's brought us to this point