- 2,993
- Brisbane
- jimipitbull
2015 Rolex Australian Grand Prix
- Thread starter SVT Cobra GT
- 771 comments
- 29,735 views
- 6,777
- Florida
- gtamann123
I can see that Mercedes can dominate, since they locked out the front row this race and several times last year. Rookies like Nasr or Verstappen probably won't touch them. Ferrari, Red Bull, or the other teams might be able to but it is looking to be difficult to match the W06's performance without some sort of learning curve in power delivery.
- 7,177
- Lisboa
- FLAT_TWELVE
Vettel's record (based on 4 years of driving a dominant car AND with no real inter team challenge) is meaningless against both Hamilton and Senna.
Hamilton has had brilliant wins with McLaren when his car was not dominant, and if you disregard his first championship (2008), the two other years he drove with the best car (2007 and 2014) he had a serious challenger for team mate.
So yes, we can compare Hamilton's wins with Senna's and the fact Hamilton is only 7 behind is very impressive. But take Vettel out of that equation.
- 7,177
- Lisboa
- FLAT_TWELVE
Who said anything about championships (or even victories) taken away? Vettel is 4 times WDC, and all his championships and GP victories are perfectly valid victories, I have no problem with that.
History is mostly made of stats and many times it is said, about current events, that in the future it will all be meaningless because the numbers will all that will remain. However, Grand Prix racing has by now lived long enough for us to know that sometimes history recalls more than numbers. Some drivers have become legends even with litle success. Some - more successful - drivers are only remembered when people recall stats.
So, Vettel's similar number of victories puts him (rightfully) in all the stats pages next to Hamilton and Senna. But, and this is my opinion and if you agree or not is irrelevant, Hamilton's record can be compared to Senna's. Vettel's record can't.
EDIT - On Schumacher ... It's true I rate him lower than Prost and Senna, but then again I won't dispute he has won as many WDC as them both combined.
History is mostly made of stats and many times it is said, about current events, that in the future it will all be meaningless because the numbers will all that will remain. However, Grand Prix racing has by now lived long enough for us to know that sometimes history recalls more than numbers. Some drivers have become legends even with litle success. Some - more successful - drivers are only remembered when people recall stats.
So, Vettel's similar number of victories puts him (rightfully) in all the stats pages next to Hamilton and Senna. But, and this is my opinion and if you agree or not is irrelevant, Hamilton's record can be compared to Senna's. Vettel's record can't.
EDIT - On Schumacher ... It's true I rate him lower than Prost and Senna, but then again I won't dispute he has won as many WDC as them both combined.
- 15,532
- Cairo, Egypt
- GTP_SEMS
- 5,619
- Hampshire
- Spurgy777
Well looks like Hamilton is going to be given another easy championship.
And @Hun200kmh I find it hilarious that you say Vettel's wins can't be compared to Senna's because he had a dominant car (which was still challenged quite regularly by other teams), but Hamilton's wins can be, despite the fact that he got at least a third of his wins with absolutely no competition from another team!
And @Hun200kmh I find it hilarious that you say Vettel's wins can't be compared to Senna's because he had a dominant car (which was still challenged quite regularly by other teams), but Hamilton's wins can be, despite the fact that he got at least a third of his wins with absolutely no competition from another team!
- 7,177
- Lisboa
- FLAT_TWELVE
I must correct my previous posts. Vettel's career isn't over yet and he can still do what Hamilton did after his first championship and before his second. This:
2009 - two victories
2010 - three victories
2011 - three victories
2012 - four victories
2013 - one victory
So far, Vettel has
2014 - zero victories (being merciful, I will not mention his team mate's achievements)
But I will stop this here, before some mod gets here and accuses me of thread drift.
2009 - two victories
2010 - three victories
2011 - three victories
2012 - four victories
2013 - one victory
So far, Vettel has
2014 - zero victories (being merciful, I will not mention his team mate's achievements)
But I will stop this here, before some mod gets here and accuses me of thread drift.
- 31,668
- Buckwheat City
- Dennisch
Verstoppen means "to hide"
/Dutch lesson of the day.
I have successfully dodged the news and Internet until 11 hours after the race. Only to see that snorefest. Why didn't those engines blow up during an awesome battle? Or the crash. All we got was a bunch of ****ed up pitstops. And 2 Mercs disappearing in the distance.
Vettel does look happy with his red horsie though.
- 31,668
- Buckwheat City
- Dennisch
Pretty much that!
- 3,207
How does that math work? Schumacher only won 2 championships in the clear best car.
R5
(Banned)
- 7,527
- Location, Location
It doesn't. That was hyperbole.
- 17,208
- United Kingdom
Arnie is the High point of Formula 1 so far.
A 1-2 at Australia normally dictates the winner and winning team of the championsip... I think that tells me all I need to know about F1 this year, glad I'll be busy with other series most weekends!
Also @legacyMACHINE ... Verstoppened
A 1-2 at Australia normally dictates the winner and winning team of the championsip... I think that tells me all I need to know about F1 this year, glad I'll be busy with other series most weekends!
Also @legacyMACHINE ... Verstoppened
R5
(Banned)
- 7,527
- Location, Location
This is gonna be the thing when he retires, I feel itAlso @legacyMACHINE ... Verstoppened
- 19,669
- Alabamamania
1982 San Marino GP had 14, due to many British teams skipping the event out of protest.
I think the 1969 French Grand Prix had only 13 starters, of which Ferrari skipped...But not out of protest, but because they were going through one of their weak spells. There's a couple events from the early-1950s with small grids and just three constructors (including privateers).
I think it depends on whether people regard Mark Webber as a great driver or not; if he's great, then Vettel had a lot of explaining to do when he lost, or had a weak teammate when he won...talk about painting the fellow into the corner!*
I think history and time is going to view Webber like a Rubens Barrichello, or going further back...like Gerhard Berger, Clay Reggazzoni, or Patrick Depailler; the likable number two driver who didn't offend but not the image of "the sore loser".
Maybe not quite like Ronnie Peterson, Jacky Ickx, Stirling Moss, Jean Alesi, or Gilles Villeneuve; trying to fend for championships on their own, having that spark or skill which made them fearsome on the track...but not quite arriving at the championship. There's the chance that a stirring sports-car career could vault Webber into that category, in my opinion; Ickx had a bit of a "I don't really want to be here"-ending to his F1 career, but was a sports-prototype ace against a lot of then-current F1 drivers.
I think I'm starting to make an F1 Tropes out this, but I like to judge** each on their own merits and take in stats later on, in a bit of a 60/40 share.
* Or on the straight, like the 2010 Turkish GP.
** Not the Biblical judging thing, just a sort of fun F1 reverie.
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Dotini
(Banned)
- 15,742
- Seattle
- CR80_Shifty
Yeah, we were just discussing San Marino '82 in the trivia thread:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/motorsports-trivia-thread.51680/page-105#post-10539015
At France, 1969, Ferrari were in attendance with Amon. However, the BRM team were missing while undergoing convulsions in Bourne over Tony Rudd leaving, and Jack Brabham sat out the event with an injured ankle. My belief is that during this time F1 was building the foundations of a long and sound formula based on Cosworth, Hewland and Goodyear.
- 51,218
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
Oops. I picked the wrong "Dane". 
http://m.speedcafe.com/2015/03/16/red-bull-threatens-to-quit-f1-over-engines/
http://m.speedcafe.com/2015/03/16/red-bull-threatens-to-quit-f1-over-engines/
- 3,264
- Salt Lake City,
2014 was easy? I thought he was down by 25+ points TWICE last year?
not easy to make up if your car 1-2's every race. That means he had to win 4 times in a row, twice in a year. Rosberg is no slouch, proven by beating Shumacher and taking all those poles last year!
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- 5,619
- Hampshire
- Spurgy777
2014 was easy? I thought he was down by 25+ points TWICE last year?
He didn't have to at all, they had an equal amount of DNFs/non points finishes, and Rosberg had one on the double points race.
Rosberg isn't slow, but he's not exactly a top driver, and at the very least Hamilton didn't have a hard time beating him considering he beat him 9 times and only lost to him 4 times.
You also seem to be missing the fact that he had virtually zero competition from every other driver on the grid all season, as far as F1 championships go, that's pretty easy.
- 13,890
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- Neomone
Lol. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. It's not the FIA's fault that Renault can't build a decent engine.
If they can find somewhere that Mercedes have bent the rules a bit too far and can rein them in some, then all well and good. But as long as Red Bull are threatening to quit but not actually fielding specific complaints, it just comes off as Horner throwing his toys out of the pram.
He may recall that when Red Bull was dominant, they were attacked for specific components that were considered to be borderline in terms of their adherence to the rules, like their TC engine maps and the flexi-wings. That was the method other teams used to try to reduce RB dominance, not random threats of taking their toys and going home.
If Red Bull wants Mercedes to get the same treatment, then they're going to need to find some way in which the Mercedes at least attempts to violate the spirit of the rules.
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- Western Sydney
- mustafur
That is the problem though and they have a point, it would be okay if the Aero Rules where more free to allow non Factory teams a chance to have some control over their destiny but they are at the strictest they have ever been, and basically every Innovation Redbull has came up with and other Teams in the Aero department has been banned the following year, where as Engines haven't had the same treatment.
Not to mention Engines can't be properly developed during the season and the fact being on the backfoot is going to be near permanent.
As the Regulations stand right now if Mercedes don't maintain their Advantage over everyone until they are changed then they did an exceptionally poor job, as everything in the Engine regulations favors them keeping their advantage.
Ferrari and Williams are actually further behind then last year and people think they have improved HA!
Fact is unless your a Factory team you will not win in the current regulations as having a Bespoke PU for your car is a massive advantage, and the only reason why Williams are where they are is because they have the best PU and that allows them to be at Ferrari's level, but the PU is not designed for their Chassis like Mercedes so the deficit is still massive.
