2015 TUDOR United Sportscar Championship

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Stanceworks' 24 Hours of Daytona photos:

http://www.stanceworks.com/2015/02/refining-endurance-the-2015-rolex-24-hours-of-daytona/

bmw-team-rll-daytona-24-rolex-2015-title.jpg
 
I wouldn't mingle them personally, because those teams that DO want to run in both the NAEC and TUSC should be able to do so. Although GTO and LMP3 could always do stand alone races without GT3 (possibly adding Yokohama GT3 Cup cars).

Lone Star at Le Mans would also make more sense to be a TUSC "sprint" race rather than an endurance event. That way the Prototype and GTLM teams can race in the WEC event should they want to.

I believe at least one of the TUSC races should also be a 6 hour race to test mettle and endurance of the GTO and LMP3 teams.
I think splitting won't help it personally. If they did just endurance races only pretty much what the ELMS does and have not very many rounds, it may be cool.

Add a 6 hour at Laguna Seca and another at VIR to the Patron cup and make it the entire season.
 
So, after combining two sports cars series (Grand-Am & ALMS) you now want to split them up? Ask INDY car how well that worked out for them. Sorry, I just don't think this is a good idea at all. Lets wait and see if we can support one series in this country first. When we get to the point where we have too many cars to fit on the track, too many sponsors to fit on the cars and too many fans packing the stands...we can talk :sly:

Well I'm glad you read my post and ignored my justification for the split, I do appreciate that.

What were ALMS and Grand-Am? They were sportscar series that each had a marquee prestigious endurance event (that marked the beginning of the season in Florida) with a second slightly less recognized but still no doubt exciting endurance event with a range of other sportscar races in between them. They each were led by prototypes and accompanied by GT's. Their calendars tended to stretch from 10-12 events depending on the season. They ran on everything from rovals to street courses in addition to traditional road courses. The only thing that distinguished the two were the types of cars they used and the rules, as well as their owners of the series'.

The biggest complaint so far in TUSC has been the hours they have to run. PWC is attractive because their entire season is shorter than the Daytona 24 Hours. And the NAEC is already established, so it's easy for teams to commit to that, but to run in the entire TUSC, you're forced to do the NAEC events as well.

On top of that, IMSA (and Grand-Am before them) have continued to show (albeit quietly) interest in Class 1 cars. So even if they don't split up TUSC, they're still likely to create a high profile second series anyways. But I don't think Class 1 is big enough to stand alone in America, and with the Gran Turismo generation of age, I don't see why IMSA shouldn't consider trying to create an American Super GT-style series instead, but throwing in the LMP3's to help market them as "The Fastest GT cars in the world". I believe the manufacturers would enjoy knowing their cars were out there beating prototypes (even if they are the baby ones).

If you look at almost every sportscar and GT series around the world, their seasons are typically averaging around 6 events (note I said average, which means more or less), yet America's bigger-is-better mentality asks teams to run double that, plus endurance events all in a single season. I just don't see that being viable in the long term. Thus my suggestion to break them into two series now and be proactive, rather than start cutting things out and being re-active later on.

Additionally, this allows the series to reach out and keep sportscar racing in markets they can't reach if they're limited to a 12-race schedule. Since they can't add any more without either seriously testing the loyalty of the teams that race in their series or... hey look at that, splitting up the races. *coughs* VIR, Kansas, Laguna Seca (yes, I know they merged for this year... I wonder why?) *coughs*


Good points...how about this then?

NAEC (sort of in order):
Rolex 24 @ Daytona
12 Hours of Sebring
6 Hours of Laguna Seca
6 Hours of Watkins Glen
6 Hours of TBD
Petite Le Mans (10 hours roughly)

TUSC (not in order): -
Long Beach
Laguna Seca
Road America
VIR
Lime Rock
Lone Star Le Mans @ COTA
Sonoma
Road Atlanta
Mosport
---------------------------------------------------------------
Honestly though I think your idea would be good as the budgets for teams could be easier to manage as you have the sprint series and an endurance series.

Remember that an event at a track is decided by the promoter. I'd like to see the 6 Hours of Laguna return, and that's why I recommended it, as it's been around before. But ultimately, any other events added will be if a track or promoter wants to add them. And that will only happen if teams and the series want to add a sixth event.


And TUSC races should still be around the length they are currently, in the 2 1/2 hour mark (2 hours for street races). It is still very much endurance-style racing and should focus on not trying to be or compete with PWC. Offer more track time than PWC can. And as stated above, the 4-6 hour endurance event they run will be decided by a promoter in coordination with the series. (If I were a beggar and a chooser, though, I'd love to see the Barber 1000km run the same weekend as IndyCar.)

Think of it like this:

Pirelli World Challenge = Blancpain Sprint Series (just with one driver instead of two)
TUSC = Blancpain Endurance Series (though with more races instead of a 24h race, and with prototypes!)
NAEC = WEC meets 24h Series
 
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Well I'm glad you read my post and ignored my justification for the split, I do appreciate that.

What makes you think I ignored your justifications for the split, just because I didn't write a full page, point by point rebuttal? I simply do not agree with you that making more smaller series with shorter seasons and even more classes than we have now is the way forward.
 
What makes you think I ignored your justifications for the split, just because I didn't write a full page, point by point rebuttal? I simply do not agree with you that making more smaller series with shorter seasons and even more classes than we have now is the way forward.
No, it was more the issue that you equated separating the two series would create the same issues we had when ALMS and Grand-Am were competing against each other.
 
No, it was more the issue that you equated separating the two series would create the same issues we had when ALMS and Grand-Am were competing against each other.

Well, it didn't work when we had Grand-Am and the ALMS the first time did it? Yes, I know it would be different, but it is still two smaller, shorter series and it has already proven not to be viable. Then there is the example of the INDYCAR split, something they still have not recovered from. The biggest problems they have now is their 7 month off-season, the fans can't stand it, teams can't operate with it, sponsors are threatening to leave and they can't get a decent tv contract.

In addition to that there is the money issue, it's always about the money. With a shorter series you would need to increase the purse in each race in order for the teams to be able to run. To increase the purse you need sponsors, to get sponsors you need airtime, to get the airtime you need to be on track and on the tele often enough for people not to forget that you exist (see INDYCAR).

Like I said, when we have too many cars to fit on the track, too many sponsors to fit on the cars and the networks ringing the phone off the wall at IMSA wanting to cover the series, then we might want to consider splitting/expanding etc. I just don't think we are at a point right now for this to be a viable, long term solution. In my opinion we should do exactly what IMSA is doing now, try to build a strong series. Not saying I agree with every decision they make, just the direction they are going.
 
Well, it didn't work when we had Grand-Am and the ALMS the first time did it? Yes, I know it would be different, but it is still two smaller, shorter series and it has already proven not to be viable. Then there is the example of the INDYCAR split, something they still have not recovered from. The biggest problems they have now is their 7 month off-season, the fans can't stand it, teams can't operate with it, sponsors are threatening to leave and they can't get a decent tv contract.

Once again, comparing twenty two races run by two different organizations with completely different machinery against what I sugggest should be fourteen to fifteen races with at least one class in common (and the possibility for more sharing as well, if teams and the series decided it) is nothing alike. Funny, too, how I know all about the issues with open wheel racing and yet I still suggested this.


In addition to that there is the money issue, it's always about the money. With a shorter series you would need to increase the purse in each race in order for the teams to be able to run. To increase the purse you need sponsors, to get sponsors you need airtime, to get the airtime you need to be on track and on the tele often enough for people not to forget that you exist (see INDYCAR).

It is about the money, you're absolutely right!

Take a moment to read this to understand how money works in sports car racing: Dark $ecrets - The Realities of Professional Road Racing

I'm with you on the length issue, there's still racing going on from January to October, if not even more now. And instead of two series trying to compete for TV audiences, it's one series that can share a TV package and even strengthen it. It would be a series where manufacturers could throw money at it because one of the top classes are cars that happen to look a lot like the ones they sell in the show room, rather than prototypes that look nothing like what they sell.

Like I said, when we have too many cars to fit on the track, too many sponsors to fit on the cars and the networks ringing the phone off the wall at IMSA wanting to cover the series, then we might want to consider splitting/expanding etc. I just don't think we are at a point right now for this to be a viable, long term solution. In my opinion we should do exactly what IMSA is doing now, try to build a strong series. Not saying I agree with every decision they make, just the direction they are going.

That will never happen, purely because there's no room to grow anymore. In it's first season out, they were turning cars away and that pissed a lot of teams off. Especially prospective PC teams, a class that was originally projected to have 14-15 cars was capped at 10, and only had 8 this season.

The only growth they experienced this year were European teams who came over to do the NAEC (if not just Daytona and Sebring), teams expanding to do the NAEC (Riley-Vipers, TRG-AMR), and teams joining to do the NAEC (RG Racing, the only new team I can think of off the top of my head). They also lost several full time teams, and guess which rounds they decided to run in their new part-time schedules? That's right, the NAEC ones (and Flying Lizard is questionable to even do all of those).


You're suggesting they wait until everyone suddenly wises up and see's what a great party they're throwing to make it even better. I'm telling you that the party is so new, nobody realizes it's already dying.
 
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You're suggesting they wait until everyone suddenly wises up and see's what a great party they're throwing to make it even better. I'm telling you that the party is so new, nobody realizes it's already dying.

I suppose this is where our real difference in opinion is then. You are ready to throw in the towel after one season and one race and I am not. I see a great deal of progress form last years Daytona and this years and look forward to more to come. The huge problems IMSA took on in combining the two very diverse series are well known and there are more coming. The GT-3 cars (2016?) and new (for 2017?) LMP cars, talk about trying to hit a moving target! Given the initial huge task IMSA took on as well as all the coming changes I think 4-5 years is a good time frame for letting it all shake out. Just out of curiosity, if you were in charge and implemented your plan, what would you say is a good time frame for deciding if it was working or not?
 
Next year with FIA spec GT3 cars in GTD (finally thank God...best racing platform in the world) we'll really find out the attendance numbers for GTD...I still think LMPC should be lower than TUSCC to add 10 more GTD cars instead but oh well.
 
I suppose this is where our real difference in opinion is then. You are ready to throw in the towel after one season and one race and I am not. I see a great deal of progress form last years Daytona and this years and look forward to more to come. The huge problems IMSA took on in combining the two very diverse series are well known and there are more coming. The GT-3 cars (2016?) and new (for 2017?) LMP cars, talk about trying to hit a moving target! Given the initial huge task IMSA took on as well as all the coming changes I think 4-5 years is a good time frame for letting it all shake out. Just out of curiosity, if you were in charge and implemented your plan, what would you say is a good time frame for deciding if it was working or not?

I realize I have been sounding hyper-critical of what IMSA has done, and the goals they set and the results they have gotten have gone well, for sure. If I was in charge, I'd be evaluating where the series stood at the end of this season, and would talk to my team owners and track promoters about the eventual inclusion of those GT3 and P2 cars that will likely be coming in the next couple of years (as well as Class 1) and seeing what their thoughts are.

If I have Prototype teams telling me they won't be investing in new Prototypes, or manufacturers like Chevrolet telling me they won't be continuing their P programs, then I'd consider shuffling things up for 2018 to make the programs more accessible and attractive to privateer's and European teams.

I'd evaluate the health of GTLM and the factory participation, check to see if there's any interest in an AM class for that spec, I'd check interest for Pro and Am teams in the new GT3 cars, and I'd see how many manufacturers and teams would be willing to run Class 1, and whether they'd want to be the top class, the second class, or their own series altogether, and if there's enough and support for that to work.

I'd want to float the idea now, before teams purchase new GT3 machinery, to get feedback on what their budgets would be and if it'd be something they'd want to do.
 
While I feel like I'm gonna continue talking to myself about this subject, I decided to crunch some numbers.

Combining the four rounds of the NAEC, the total hours of race time (not counting practice and qualifying) is 52 hours.

Remember that those are the four biggest races of the series as well, and on top of that, they're all on the east coast, which makes team logistics a dream, especially those teams running in Europe.

And when the other 8 races only total 16.8 hours combined, it makes it easy for a team to drop those races, especially when they have to trek all over the country and file a mountain of paperwork just to go to Canada alone.

I decided to crunch numbers to see who runs the longest, since so many of the races are split up:

Prototype: 10 Events / 64.6 Hours / 12.4 (Non-NAEC)
Prototype Challenge: 10 Events / 65 Hours / 13
GT LM: 10 Events / 63.4 Hours / 11.4
GT D : 10 Events / 65 Hours / 13

For comparison:
PWC GT/GT-A : 11 Events / 14 Hours

I also have my doubts over the life of the Prototype class once the DP's are phased out to be perfectly honest.
 
To me it looks like the FIA/ACO have handed the P2 class to IMSA so they can have a "premier" class without spending any real money.

Not really since IMSA would still allow engine competition under the proposal.
 
It's not open competition like CART was in the 90's, they will still have to comply with a very narrow set of rules and cost containment.
 
Not sure if I like this....
Well look at this way from the IMSA side only, they will now have a premier class what can race at Le Mans and enough "diversity" to be considered unique. GM can still have it's illusion of being a real prototype constructor, Dinan can still supply engines,and Mazda can do something that actually works.

Capping the chassis to four brands seems extreme but with so many choices who is actually making money? If they split the constructors between P2 and P3 cars then it ensure that some people sell more than 2 cars before going broke.
 
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