2016 Formula 1 Grand Premio de MexicoFormula 1

[Samus]

I mean I can see your argument from a consistency point. However, watching the series for so long, this has always been the case, if you go off with no one around but gain an advantage you slow up a bit to restore the original gap. But you don't get penalized as if some hypothetical of "well if this was Suzuka there would be sand there...". You should punish based on the situation of course and not based on what places would be less forgiving if said move happened there.

I recall earlier this year with Canada and people cutting turn 8 or 13 can't remember which. But Nico did it at one point and slowed up to restore the gap and I think Lewis as well. The difference here is, there was an actual fight for position and so in the Kvyat situation a place and advantage was gained and never returned, which I found it strange how a driver wouldn't be aware of that. Then the Max and Seb battle, sure Max was ahead but he gained an advantage after making a mistake to stay ahead. Both situations are slightly different but result in the same issue. It's about advantages gained not potential outcomes of the mistake had it been somewhere else.

There were drivers around Hamilton though, it was L1 T1. 21 right behind him ready to pounce. The only reason he got away with it so easily is because the 2nd and 3rd placed drivers also happened to tangle. I just don't see how what he did and what Max did are really any different. They both had cars right behind them, they both went off the track at T1 and rejoined at T3 with no places lost. The only difference is Lewis was at the start of the race when they're more lenient. But as I say, how lenient can you be? Does this set the precedent that if the track allows it the car in P1 at the start can cut the first corner and always get away with it, as long as he doesn't build a gap from it?

You're right in that you can't apply the "If it was Monaco..." reasoning to every incident because drivers obviously drive differently based on the track and Hamilton certainly would've been more careful at T1 there, but the point still stands. They both left the track and prevented themselves losing time by completely cutting a corner out.

Jean-Marie Balestre wouldn't have stood for it in his day, I know that much.

I really think that it being at the start of the race and the Safety Car following it right away are the only reasons why Lewis didn't got a penalty. Of course he gained a massiv advantage, but the Safety Car immediately took this advantage away.

Yeah but can't you argue the advantage he gained is that he kept P1, and didn't lose time or places despite cutting a corner? Is that right? That is the question for me.

 

[SuperDiscoDaz]

Have Mercedes stolen the person who used to run the Lotus/Renault twitter feed

 

[United6694]

The Vettel Ric incident only happened because of Ver not giving up the place, seems harsh to give out a penalty for something which should never have happened. When you have the team on the radio to give up the place surely the jig is up

 

[Milouse]

If you look back at the Vettel Max situation, Max didn't gain anything as Vettel was still on his ass after turn 2, whereas Lewis was 10 car lengths away after his grassy trip

Obviously, the fact that the driver behind Hamilton has been hitten by crazy-Max had no impact on the gap, right?
There are no doubt that VS would have been way behind Vettel if it didn't cut, since he was out and Vettel took the chicane perfectly.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

There were drivers around Hamilton though, it was L1 T1. 21 right behind him ready to pounce. The only reason he got away with it so easily is because the 2nd and 3rd placed drivers also happened to tangle. I just don't see how what he did and what Max did are really any different. They both had cars right behind them, they both went off the track at T1 and rejoined at T3 with no places lost. The only difference is Lewis was at the start of the race when they're more lenient. But as I say, how lenient can you be? Does this set the precedent that if the track allows it the car in P1 at the start can cut the first corner and always get away with it, as long as he doesn't build a gap from it?

Yes which plays into my other post where I say that had it not been for the SC and also as you mentioned Verstappen and Nico, he'd have been penalized. Obviously it doesn't set one, cause they penalized another driver for leaving the track as well and gaining an advantage, however that was a more obvious case and did deserve it. Now the remedy for all of this would be to give Max no penalty and just analyze the times and have him restore the gap like has been done prior and in many other series.

You're right in that you can't apply the "If it was Monaco..." reasoning to every incident because drivers obviously drive differently based on the track and Hamilton certainly would've been more careful at T1 there, but the point still stands. They both left the track and prevented themselves losing time by completely cutting a corner out.

Jean-Marie Balestre wouldn't have stood for it in his day, I know that much.

Yeah they both did, I don't disagree with it, I just understand the reasoning even if it's faulty on why one was punished and not the other. It could also be because it's the start of the race, but that hasn't stopped penalties flying like crazy before lap 5. I mean we had I believe 3 different investigations before lap five this race. So they weren't short on seeing who should be punished early on.

Have Mercedes stolen the person who used to run the Lotus/Renault twitter feed

Seems like it, they've had many funny tweets since last year.

 

[SuperDiscoDaz]

The Vettel Ric incident only happened because of Ver not giving up the place, seems harsh to give out a penalty for something which should never have happened. When you have the team on the radio to give up the place surely the jig is up

As I said further up the thread we need to know the time gaps at critical points to see if Max gained any time. The fact that Max didn't give up the place shouldn't negate Seb moving while braking. The audio from the radio feed could have been from after the Seb Dan incident.

 

[United6694]

As I said further up the thread we need to know the time gaps at critical points to see if Max gained any time. The fact that Max didn't give up the place shouldn't negate Seb moving while braking. The audio from the radio feed could have been from after the Seb Dan incident.

They still looked close so I couldn't say if he gained time, but he maintained an advantage i.e kept 3rd so thats why he was penalised I think. I do think it is telling that even the Red Bull pit wall told him to more or less give up 3rd

I think what Seb did was just about ok, it looked like he braked and turned same time to close the game, not brake see Ric then move to cover him

Don't know if anyone can see this:

 

[Samus]

On a totally different note, it may not have been an exciting race but boy the director was worse than ever this race. So many pointless shots of random people or people in the crowd and I do recall one point where there was actual racing going on and they cut to the Ferrari pit wall instead. Awful.

On the other hand I did like that they actually showed the incidents they were penalising, so it was clear. That was new. They really need to sort the direction out though.

 

[SuperDiscoDaz]

They still looked close so I couldn't say if he gained time, but he maintained an advantage i.e kept 3rd so thats why he was penalised I think.

If the reason for the penalty is for maintaining an advantage by going off track I have no qualms about that.

 

[andrea]

Sebastian wasn't even next to Max, still behind and then Max locked and took the "gras" way out of it. Happens a lot on other tracks (mostly curbs/tarmac) and then there are no penalties. (let alone Lewis in the 1st corner).

If Max and Sebas go side by side, under braking, than Max gains an advantage and I can see why. But now it feels because one guy is going mad, they feel they have to do something. Also curious what the FIA is going to do about the outburst, doubt they like it.........I did

Also, Vettel moved in the braking zone with DannyRic, which isn't allowed anymore.

 

[GTFan24]

Also Vettel talked to Charlie and apologized apparently.

 

[Samus]

I'm guessing FOM broadcast those messages purposely to create talking points for F1 in light of an otherwise boring race, can't see why else they'd want to air a driver verbally abusing the FIA.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

They still looked close so I couldn't say if he gained time, but he maintained an advantage i.e kept 3rd so thats why he was penalised I think. I do think it is telling that even the Red Bull pit wall told him to more or less give up 3rd

I think what Seb did was just about ok, it looked like he braked and turned same time to close the game, not brake see Ric then move to cover him

Don't know if anyone can see this:

Lovely facebook page you've linked within...

Also looking at the start of that defense Seb did move to the left and then after that began to brake, but his car was positioned in a way that it angled toward the apex and kept pinching Daniel in. This is why Daniel felt it was on purpose, but when you take into consideration the lock up as well, it's hard to say if it was on purpose or not. It's borderline really. Still doesn't change the fact that last GP we saw someone move under braking and not get a penalty.

 

[United6694]

If the reason for the penalty is for maintaining an advantage by going off track I have no qualms about that.

I *think* thats what sky said at the time

 

[RACECAR]

I honestly do wonder who the hell is in charge of the world feed. For the millionth time, WE GET IT. Celebs show up AT A F1 race. Big 🤬 Deal. Do they think everyone that watches is a massive idiot?


As for the Turn 1 incident, it can be argued that an advantage was gained by Hamilton going off (Unintentionally as the car simply didn't turn even with the wheel at full lock) but at the same time, Rosberg also got an advantage (also unintentionally as it was through sheer force of being verstappen'd) so maybe that's why they didn't give the penalty to him or Rosberg? In that case, does the gain Rosberg gets negates the advantage Hamilton got?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Sebastian wasn't even next to Max, still behind and then Max locked and took the "gras" way out of it. Happens a lot on other tracks (mostly curbs/tarmac) and then there are no penalties. (let alone Lewis in the 1st corner).

If Max and Sebas go side by side, under braking, than Max gains an advantage and I can see why. But now it feels because one guy is going mad, they feel they have to do something. Also curious what the FIA is going to do about the outburst, doubt they like it.........I did

Also, Vettel moved in the braking zone with DannyRic, which isn't allowed anymore.

I don't necessarily see it as becasue one guy got made, more so because they already had given penalties for leaving the track and maintaining or gaining an advantage. To be honest I was quite surprised they were able to come to a conclusion before the podium ceremony, so in light of that I think you and @Samus may have a point on why the FIA gave this penalty. I'd like to think they're impartial to that sort of thing but...

As for the Danny v Seb crap, look at my previous post.

 

[United6694]

Lovely facebook page you've linked within...

Also looking at the start of that defense Seb did move to the left and then after that began to brake, but his car was positioned in a way that it angled toward the apex and kept pinching Daniel in. This is why Daniel felt it was on purpose, but when you take into consideration the lock up as well, it's hard to say if it was on purpose or not. It's borderline really. Still doesn't change the fact that last GP we saw someone move under braking and not get a penalty.

I don't follow the page, I saw it and thought it was worth posting, the group name is unfortunate but I posted it for any discussion about it, not the page name...

At the very least I don't think Seb was as obvious as Max has been about it in the past in regards to changing position in the braking zone, it's tough to call.

Mad props to Seb and Dan for the way they controlled the cars though

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I don't follow the page, I saw it and thought it was worth posting, the group name is unfortunate but I posted it for any discussion about it, not the page name...

At the very least I don't think Seb was as obvious as Max has been about it in the past in regards to changing position in the braking zone, it's tough to call.

Mad props to Seb and Dan for the way they controlled the cars though

Yeah I understand, just quite toxic when people set up dedications to supposedly despise others. As for the rest of your post I agree obviously.

 

[United6694]

Yeah I understand, just quite toxic when people set up dedications to like that because they supposedly despise others. As for the rest of your post I agree obviously.

I know, there is loads of it going on, even on stories from BBC/Sky, the comment section seems to be a back and forth between pro Ham and pro Ros supporters

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I know, there is loads of it going on, even on stories from BBC/Sky, the comment section seems to be a back and forth between pro Ham and pro Ros supporters

That's been the case since 2014 sadly, I just get my news from various sources in regard to F1 and since it's most technical stuff that I care about (cars themselves), I skip over BBC/Sky ninety percent of the time.

 

[DQuaN]

Vettel and Ric have just been summoned to the stewards. Vettel apparently driving "dangerously or erratically".

It's not over yet!

 

[spyrrari]

sure there are people pro and anti....there has always been,and always will be....good!


But guys,there is 1 new hero on the rise....

you like him or not,you think he is dangerous or not,you think he shakes up the boring f1 field or.....yes he does!!

as biased as i am...wow,how many people are watching f1 more since Max is making the field think again....


This race again...the only driver to attack... ?


i know many of you are going to attack me for saying this,but Max will be champion...he will be!!

why?

because he attacks all the time...all the time!!!!!


so,he was kicked of the podium,because the whyning german (honestly) vettel boy again did not manage to do an overtake properly....
yes,max should have given the place back...but vettel should have made a proper overtake...

bla bla bla...

just my 2 cents!





Spy.

 

[mustafur]

This race again...the only driver to attack... ?

What Race were you watching?

 

[TiZzla]

I love how biased the Sky F1 commentators are, Lewis takes a MASSIVE shortcut after a huge lockup and they don't even mention it and only focus on Rosberg taking a tiny little cut after being pushed off the road. Then later Verstappen does exactly the same shortcut as Ham and they are all like "He has to get a penalty for that".

That was a really bad race, Vettel needs to calm the hell down he sounds like a child. Telling the race director to F&*% off over public radio how is that acceptable? And the rushed decision to give him the podium after the race despite there being multiple post race issues to be resolved.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

What Race were you watching?

Yeah as far as I can tell Perez was like the white on the Williams paint, while chasing the and trying to gain position. Daniel did the most attacking all race I think, Jenson was fighting. I'm with you I think the nationalism has him blinded.

 

[andrea]

Verstappen also received a penalty point on his license for cutting the track.

Are they going to give Lewis one too?

 

[H20HYBRID_GT]

The problem I'm seeing is the inconsequential ruling by the FIA, what Verstappen did in Spa with Raikonnen for example didn't need a new rule, it was dangerous driving and that's always been not allowed. But no, they let it slip time and time again and then even went and invented the "Verstappen rule" it's just silly.
Best thing is now Vettel being accused of breaking said rule, when what he did was something completely different. Yes, he closed the door on Ricardo, but that's it, it's not even remotely comparable with what Verstappen is doing the whole season already. Main difference, it wasn't dangerous and it couldn't have killed anyone. Verstappen doesn't care. I think even in the case of him killing someone, he'll still be all "it wasn't my fault"... Something about him just strikes me the wrong way, it's not determination, it's more like insanity tbh. Did you see the stare when he saw he got penalized, just completely irrational.

Yeah, he's fast, but there's more to being a good race driver than that.

Also, if that rule now gets applied to basically any defending move then it means defending is not allowed at all anymore? That's simply ridiculous.
I also think this Whiting guy should go, the selective ruling gets more ridiculous almost every race.


I also dislike this national bias, I'm pretty sure if Verstappen was a Russian or American or whatever, but not a Dutchman you'd see things a little different and clearer. But that's just how it is. I'm not like this, I just like great drivers with some personality, I don't care where they come from, I like Alonso, I like Ricardo, I like Vettel I even like Hamilton, I think he's really pretty cool and a fighter. Something I still think Rosberg is not for example, I still like the guy, and I'm aware he can still get WDC, but I think he just doesn't have it, although he'd also kinda deserve it, because, well, he's at least really trying and Hamilton is a tough opponent for sure.

Anyways, I got it with Verstappen, he's unfair, he's not very smart, and most importantly he's really kinda creepy and unsympathetic. He looks like a mad man and someone should do something about it.

On the other hand, I agree, he makes it all a little more exciting, I just wish he would be smarter about it.

 

[LogiForce]

Verstappen also received a penalty point on his license for cutting the track on top of his 5 second penalty.

What a joke.

FIA Mafia I tell you. Yet Bernie Ecclestone stands behind Verstappen as he thinks Verstappen is what the sport needs, so the corruption resides within the core of the FIA it seems.

Well, one thing is for sure... Verstappen is the next Senna, cause he's surely shaking up the sport. Besides, even Senna's manager Joaquin ‘Jo’ Ramirez thinks so, he even says that while the temperament of the Dutch chap is similar to young Lewis Hamilton, Max his driving style looks a lot more like Ayrton's.

While the sport is rotten and has become boring thereof, and I hadn't watched the sport for more than 10 years now... I am actually watching it again because Max is shaking things up. There actually is a racing driver again within the sport... I love it!

 

[Dennisch]

Verstappen also received a penalty point on his license for cutting the track.

Are they going to give Lewis one too?

Now that's just ********. What a ridiculous joke. ****heads. Blegh.

 

[FutureF1]

in yet another twist, Ricciardo inherits 3rd

Also Marko calling his original golden boy unworthy of being a 4-time champion.. Oh how the wheels are coming off Vettels 2016 campaign...