2016 Pirelli Spanish Grand Prix

Hamilton never won the place. He never held ground long enough to claim the car's width of space. I'm not denying that Rosberg made a mistake, just pointing out that Hamilton's mistake was considerably bigger.


Hamilton had no choice but to take to the grass because there was never enough of a gap for him to hold. Rosberg would have had to have swerve back in the other direction.
He did win right to be on that part of track, Nico just left him no option as he kept on going into that direction. Surely it won't be a mistake made by Nico if Lewis is not allowed to claim the cars width of space like you say.

The following in Telegraph sort of shows what happened. If it was more like other tracks then Lewis would have still got the move done I think.

Telegraph.png
 
He did win right to be on that part of track, Nico just left him no option as he kept on going into that direction. Surely it won't be a mistake made by Nico if Lewis is not allowed to claim the cars width of space like you say.

The following in Telegraph sort of shows what happened. If it was more like other tracks then Lewis would have still got the move done I think.

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Wow! A British newspaper trying to demonize a German F1 driver, for a blameless accident. Who'd have thought? :rolleyes:

Fact of the matter, is this; Nico moved to defend, at the exact same time that Lewis moved to attack. Lewis didn't move into a gap that was closing because, as he started the manoeuvre, it wasn't closing. Watch the attached video; they moved at the exact same time. Not one second after each other, not half a second, not quarter of second, not quarter of a quarter of a second; the EXACT same time...



Had it not been for this freak circumstance, of both drivers moving sharply right simultaneously (coupled with the difference in closing speed), the accident could have been avoided. You keep saying how Nico "kept going into that direction", but it all happened so quickly (as you can see from the video above), that he had no time to stop "going into that direction".

What you also appear to be saying, is that Nico could have foreseen an aggressive attack to the inside by Lewis; and that Lewis could have foreseen an aggressive defence to the inside by Nico. Which is just ridiculous. They're racing drivers, not mind readers!
 
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The following in Telegraph sort of shows what happened.
"Sort of" is right - Hamilton was never as far alongside Rosberg as the diagram would have us believe.

A British newspaper trying to demonize a German F1 driver, for a blameless accident.
I don't think that it was a blameless accident. Rather, I think that you can hold one driver more responsible than the other, but not so much as to justify a penalty.
 
I don't think that it was a blameless accident. Rather, I think that you can hold one driver more responsible than the other, but not so much as to justify a penalty.

Thing is this; it was not an overly aggressive attempt at an overtake, by Hamilton. Because there was a cars width gap, as he started to overtake. It was aggressive, yes; but in the acceptable realms of aggressive. And the same goes for Rosberg's attempt to defend. Because Hamilton wasn't alongside at all, as he started to move...

What buggered them both is that, by some fluke, they both jinxed right simultaneously; mirroring each other, as if they were on rails. Had one moved after the other, the accident could have been avoided, as there'd have been more time to react. But the freakish, synchronic nature of their moves, along with the speed difference, left no time and space to do so.
 
Controversial to say given the ol' 'If you don't go for a gap you aren't a racing driver' spiel but Hamilton has proven plenty of times he is objectively a better racer than Rosberg so I don't think that he would have went for the gap if he knew that Rosberg was gonna defend so harshly and send him into the grass. It's not like it would have been the only chance to overtake Nico so it seems a bit...premature to try and snap at one opportunity at the very start of a GP. Lewis has shown before he's as smart as he is daring, whether that be pit strategy or otherwise.

I'm not saying Nico wouldn't better Lewis even if the collision didn't take place, I just mean Lewis is a season pro in the discipline so I doubt he jeopardized a finish to get one-up over his team-mate.

It does seem like its a racing incident where both drivers, at pretty much the same time, have chosen the same racing line for that section of the track and thus a collision ended their race.
 
Wow! A British newspaper trying to demonize a German F1 driver, for a blameless accident. Who'd have thought? :rolleyes:

Fact of the matter, is this; Nico moved to defend, at the exact same time that Lewis moved to attack. Lewis didn't move into a gap that was closing because, as he started the manoeuvre, it wasn't closing. Watch the attached video; they moved at the exact same time. Not one second after each other, not half a second, not quarter of second, not quarter of a quarter of a second; the EXACT same time...



Had it not been for this freak circumstance, of both drivers moving sharply right simultaneously (coupled with the difference in closing speed), the accident could have been avoided. You keep saying how Nico "kept going into that direction", but it all happened so quickly (as you can see from the video above), that he had no time to stop "going into that direction".

What you also appear to be saying, is that Nico could have foreseen an aggressive attack to the inside by Lewis; and that Lewis could have foreseen an aggressive defence to the inside by Nico. Which is just ridiculous. They're racing drivers, not mind readers!

They didn't try demonise him, they thought steward decision seemed just about fair: Link

Nico was well aware of where Lewis was according to him and knew what he was doing. Making it such a situation that if Lewis doesn't avoid it and back out, they will crash is dangerous especially when knowing you are down on a lot of power IMO. Lewis could have had similar crash as Giovinazzi in GP2 if he never went on grass.
"Sort of" is right - Hamilton was never as far alongside Rosberg as the diagram would have us believe.
Both pictures would be classed as being on track here as he has part of one wheel on it on second picture.
 
Watching from the on board camera, it was blindingly obvious that Hamilton was faster.
Or course he was. Otherwise he wouldn't have tried to pass.... It was the unanticipated speed diference no driver could be expected to compensate for.
 
They didn't try demonise him, they thought steward decision seemed just about fair: Link

Nico was well aware of where Lewis was according to him and knew what he was doing. Making it such a situation that if Lewis doesn't avoid it and back out, they will crash is dangerous especially when knowing you are down on a lot of power IMO. Lewis could have had similar crash as Giovinazzi in GP2 if he never went on grass.

True! It seems like you're the one trying to do the demonizing instead...

You're (perhaps deliberately) misconstruing what Nico said. All he said was he was aware that Lewis was closing in on him from behind, so we went to defend the inside line. At which point, when he started that manoeuvre, Lewis wasn't alongside him. At all. Not even slightly. He had no intent, or any idea, that would cause any issues.
 
It was a great move from Rosberg. If it succeeded, Hamilton was off and he made an even bigger advantage in the championship. If it failed they were both off and the advantage stayed the same. In either case, Rosberg doesn't lose out and has shown Hamilton that he can't go past with impunity any more.

Psychological advantage to the Finn German.
 
Interesting implication there - that makes it sound like Rosberg intended to take Hamilton out of the race...
 
Or course he was. Otherwise he wouldn't have tried to pass.... It was the unanticipated speed diference no driver could be expected to compensate for.
Nico was already doing stuff on steering wheel knowing he was much slower and a strong move to the inside to block Lewis overtaking that direction which is way he compensated for mistake. He wouldn't need to defend at all if he had the right mode.
True! It seems like you're the one trying to do the demonizing instead...

You're (perhaps deliberately) misconstruing what Nico said. All he said was he was aware that Lewis was closing in on him from behind, so we went to defend the inside line. At which point, when he started that manoeuvre, Lewis wasn't alongside him. At all. Not even slightly. He had no intent, or any idea, that would cause any issues.
As Nico is fellow teammate, think it was a bit too strong what he did.

Lewis wouldn't be alongside him no matter which direction he went. If Nico went for the left, the racing line, he could still go and block the inside line afterwards. Both times Lewis won't be alongside when he changed direction. Unfortunate accident in the end, Lewis probably expected Nico to finally give him space and he will make the overtake but that didn't happen. He had small window of opportunity to brake and get out of it when alongside. It will be interesting to see how it affects future battles though, Lewis sort of picked up momentum last time in similar kind of situation for team (2014 Spa).
It was a great move from Rosberg. If it succeeded, Hamilton was off and he made an even bigger advantage in the championship. If it failed they were both off and the advantage stayed the same. In either case, Rosberg doesn't lose out and has shown Hamilton that he can't go past with impunity any more.

Psychological advantage to the Finn German.
Think psychologically helps Lewis as he didn't lose points to Nico, first time in the season that's been the case. Also next time there should be more space given in similar circumstance and Nico will know Lewis is not the kind of driver to back out of it. If Lewis backed out of it though this race or Nico still managed to continue, think Nico would have upper hand then but he didn't.
 
Drivers have to navigate slow-moving traffic all the time. Remember what Button said about Haryanto? "I know he thinks he's fast, but he isn't."
Apples and oranges. They drive the same car, not cars with widely different performances.

Oops. Double post.
 
No time for that stuff, he can't lift off otherwise he loses his speed advantage.

This is not necessarily correct. He could've backed off, get back on the driving line, and challenge Rosberg again at the next corner with a better corner exit speed. Hamilton just wanted P1 too much, and had absolutely no patience.
 
Apples and oranges.
You claim that there was an "unanticipated speed difference". I refuted that by pointing out that drivers encounter slower cars all the time. The fact that it's a different car doesn't matter.

Besides, if it was "unanticipated" as you claim, how come Hamilton was able to try and position his car for an overtake? If he had gone straight into the back of Rosberg, you would have a point.
 
What would have happened had Lewis held his line on the circuit and Nico struck him (rear wheel to front wheel/wing)? The circuit is essentially a straight there, so I'm guessing that Nico would have been the one at fault and found guilty of causing a collision. All supposition of course, but it goes some way to explain why I'm in the 60/40 in favour of Lewis camp, although neither came out of that well.

I'll admit I did laugh when it happened. Great race after that.
 
They're both idiots. One drives on the grass and the other doesn't know where the racing line is. Instead of chalking this up to "racing incident", how about "this is a perfect example of what not to do"?

The race is not won on the first lap.

It was a great move from Rosberg. If it succeeded, Hamilton was off and he made an even bigger advantage in the championship. If it failed they were both off and the advantage stayed the same. In either case, Rosberg doesn't lose out and has shown Hamilton that he can't go past with impunity any more.

Psychological advantage to the Finn German.

Eh, umpteen more races to go in the championship.
 
Interesting implication there - that makes it sound like Rosberg intended to take Hamilton out of the race...
I don't think he intended for Hamilton to have a race-ending crash - but nor do I think he'd have been particularly bothered if he had (which takes us back to the psychopathy of racing drivers).

I think he intended to slam the door on Hamilton so hard that there would be no doubt who is the championship leader and number 1 driver now.

And it's about time. Rosberg has never had that willingness to put his car in the way and Hamilton has been exploiting it. Since Spa in 2013, Rosberg has been the number 2 driver in his own head. With Hamilton's head elsewhere, Rosberg has built the lead and the confidence - and now he's driving like a champion.
 
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You claim that there was an "unanticipated speed difference". I refuted that by pointing out that drivers encounter slower cars all the time. The fact that it's a different car doesn't matter.

Besides, if it was "unanticipated" as you claim, how come Hamilton was able to try and position his car for an overtake? If he had gone straight into the back of Rosberg, you would have a point.
If it wasn't unanticipated why did he go on the grass?

I pointed out it was different from the point you made because they have the same car therefore the same performance. Unlike the example you made where the cars have different performance which would have to be accounted for. Apples and oranges.
 
If it wasn't unanticipated why did he go on the grass?
Because he didn't anticipate the defensive move from Rosberg. He knew the difference in speed was there; he just didn't think that Rosberg would move over. That's why I think Hamilton was more responsible than Rosberg - from Rosberg's position, the lack of speed meant that a defensive move was the only move available. Hamilton should have been able to anticipate it.
 
How I wished Hamilton just crash and didn't took anyone with him, less debate ? :D

Not really, certain members look for any excuse to talk about him. Instead of talking about the crash it would be about how stupid Hamilton was, how he could have ruined Rosbergs race and so on.

It's like If Sky talk about him constantly, it's mentioned. If they don't talk about him, it's still mentioned.
 
As Nico is fellow teammate, think it was a bit too strong what he did.

Lewis wouldn't be alongside him no matter which direction he went. If Nico went for the left, the racing line, he could still go and block the inside line afterwards. Both times Lewis won't be alongside when he changed direction. Unfortunate accident in the end, Lewis probably expected Nico to finally give him space and he will make the overtake but that didn't happen. He had small window of opportunity to brake and get out of it when alongside. It will be interesting to see how it affects future battles though, Lewis sort of picked up momentum last time in similar kind of situation for team (2014 Spa).

How can I explain this to you as simply as possible? It wasn't an overly aggressive move by Nico, because Lewis wasn't down his inside, when he started to move over. So he didn't cut Lewis up. Just like it wasn't an overly aggressive attempt at an overtake by Lewis, as there was indeed a gap there, when he started to move over.

Nico definitely knew of the speed differential, but was unaware that is was large enough, to be a potential danger. I'm not sure if you realise this, but it's hard to judge the closing speed between you and another car, when you're the car in front. Nico expected Lewis to anticipate his defensive move, as it's common practice to defend the inside, in that situation. Lewis didn't expect Nico to put up much of a fight, because he was travelling far more slowly.

The final nail in the coffin, was that they both made their moves simultaneously. How many more times do I have to explain this? It's not as if Nico saw Lewis starting to overtake, and then made a rash move to cut him up, and block him off; like you're trying to insinuate.

They both, by freak coincidence, dived to the right at the EXACT same time, both thinking they were covering each other off; only to find themselves both going for the same piece of tarmac, and crashing into each other instead. That's why I have been, and will keep calling it, a freak accident. You can't really blame either driver for that one.
 
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They both, by freak coincidence, dived to the right at the EXACT same time, both thinking they were covering each other off; only to find themselves both going for the same peace of tarmac, and crashing into each other instead. That's why I have been, and will keep calling it, a freak accident. You can't really blame either driver for that one.

Indeed and if Rosberg had been at full speed Hamilton wouldn't have caught him quite so rapidly and might have had chance to change his trajectory.

It was a mixture of unfortunate events with no party to ultimately blame.
 
Indeed and if Rosberg had been at full speed Hamilton wouldn't have caught him quite so rapidly and might have had chance to change his trajectory.
If Rosberg was at full speed, Hamilton wouldn't have gotten a run on him. Rosberg was several car lengths ahead through Turn 3.
 
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