2016 Pirelli Spanish Grand Prix

[prisonermonkeys]

That's kind of how I see it. If you brake it down frame by frame, you can say this guy should have done this, and the other guy should have done that. Although Hamilton might technically have been along side, it was for barely a split second before he was in the grass.

Which is why you have to look at what each driver could have reasonably anticipated. To my mind, Hamilton should have seen a defensive move coming, and he shouldn't have assumed that he could simply out-drag Rosberg when he was off the racing line.

 

[twitcher]

Which is why you have to look at what each driver could have reasonably anticipated. To my mind, Hamilton should have seen a defensive move coming, and he shouldn't have assumed that he could simply out-drag Rosberg when he was off the racing line.

Easy enough to say from the comfort of your armchair, but fair points

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Easy enough to say from the comfort of your armchair, but fair points

Look at the gap between them halfway through Turn 3. Rosberg was clearly conscious enough of Hamilton to go on the defensive straight away, so why wasn't Hamilton conscious enough of Rosberg to anticipate a defensive move? After all, he had a far better view of Rosberg than Rosberg had of him. Or was he arrogant enough to believe that he could simply drive past Rosberg regardless of where Rosberg positioned himself?

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

If he didn't go for the gap, he wouldn't be a racing driver.


I can't believe Lauda was so quick to judge.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

If he didn't go for the gap, he wouldn't be a racing driver.

If he didn't go for the gap, he would have finished the race.

I can't believe Lauda was so quick to judge.

Knowing what we do about Niki Lauda, is it really so surprising that he would assess the situation so quickly?

 

[twitcher]

Look at the gap between them halfway through Turn 3. Rosberg was clearly conscious enough of Hamilton to go on the defensive straight away, so why wasn't Hamilton conscious enough of Rosberg to anticipate a defensive move? After all, he had a far better view of Rosberg than Rosberg had of him. Or was he arrogant enough to believe that he could simply drive past Rosberg regardless of where Rosberg positioned himself?

I don't know why Hamilton wasn't conscious enough to anticipate something Rosberg might have done. That's a question for someone more qualified than I.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

That's a question for someone more qualified than I.

That's the question that makes me believe that Hamilton is more responsible.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Knowing what we do about Niki Lauda, is it really so surprising that he would assess the situation so quickly?

I'm not sure what we know about Lauda that would change that. He's Austrian? His crash?

In his interviews he usually seemed pretty favorable to Hamilton.

 

[OutlawQuadrnt]

I don't know why Hamilton wasn't conscious enough to anticipate something Rosberg might have done. That's a question for someone more qualified than I.

I can only speak for myself but looking at it from Hamilton's onboard, with the rate of approach exiting the corner and where Rosberg was positioned on the track, I would've gone on the inside as well. There wasn't enough time to feign a move one way and go back the other way and because I was still turning for Turn 3, doing so may have spun me out anyways. I figure Rosberg would try to block inside but with Rosberg positioned roughly 3/4 of the way to the outside, my momentum should be enough to get the nose in there before he could close that gap. He will have to give me the room out of caution because of the speed differential but he doesn't. Once I'm on the grass, I'm just a passenger along for the ride.

On the flip side, I realize I made a mistake in my power mode. I try to guide the car a little closer to the middle of the track for a potential defense while I fix the settings on the wheel. The moment I finish, I realize I have to block immediately to the inside or Hamilton will get besides me. Instinctively, I commit to the move, believing Hamilton will lift out of precaution because of the speed differential but he doesn't. Not only do I end up running Hamilton off track, I'm clumsy and stay on the inside rather than move away from the potential danger that's right besides me.

 

[TenEightyOne]

That's the question that makes me believe that Hamilton is more responsible.

Hamilton's reaction was to the harvesting light, or so it appears. Rosberg's reaction was clumsy, he looked down at the wheel to switch the engine mode, then looked in the mirror, then moved. And he moved too late, it seems to me. If both drivers were more cautious they would have finished. As it is Hamilton couldn't afford to be cautious - his chances of passing Rosberg at Catalunya in an identical car were very low. Once the harvest light came on he had a golden opportunity, it seemed.

 

[Jimlaad43]

None of the move from Hamilton was "desperation" or whatever some of you have been trying to derail him by, it's an opportunistic racing instinct move that Rosberg or anyone else on the grid would have tried. If you're 17kph faster than someone on the exit of a corner, you go for the space - fact. Rosberg just defended robustly and it all went a bit wrong. There's no real psychological disaster to glean from this in either driver except disappointment that they were both equally at fault for something.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I'm not sure what we know about Lauda that would change that.

His fastidious, disciplined approach. He blamed Hamilton because the onus is on the attacking driver to pass cleanly. I'm betting that he saw Hamilton's move as ill-conceived and poorly-executed.

As it is Hamilton couldn't afford to be cautious - his chances of passing Rosberg at Catalunya in an identical car were very low. Once the harvest light came on he had a golden opportunity, it seemed.

I'm not denying that Hamilton had the opportunity. Like I said, he had the speed to get ahead at Turn 4. But given the closing speeds, a defensive move was the only move available to Rosberg, and Hamilton should have seen it coming.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Rosberg is not at fault IMO, he's in front and did a legal defensive move. If Hamilton sliding didn't took out Rosberg, it will be different story.

Rosberg should have swerved to the left when he saw Hamilton went into the grass just in case.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Rosberg should have swerved to the left when he saw Hamilton went into the grass just in case.

By that point, he had probably expected Hamilton to have backed off - an understandable assumption.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Regardless of who was involved, the burden of responsibility rests with the attacking deiver by default. When Ricciardo dive-bombed Vettel, it was his duty to make sure that the pass was completed cleanly. The same applies here.


Yeah, this wouldn't have been a problem if we were talking about the best drivers in the world.

Not in this case IMO. Lewis has car alongside, it is Nico that is forcing Lewis to take avoiding action. Daniel would likely have been done for overtake if Sebastian never took avoiding action, I think similar case here that if Lewis did not take avoiding action, Nico would have been penalised. Reminds me a bit of football, if player tries and avoids challenge in penalty box, he probably won't get penalty kick but if he doesn't he likely will.

Like you said blink-and-you-miss-it moment, he went for a gap and was in that gap and still Nico tried closing the door and going by way Nico eased steering, I think he was well aware of situation like he said. I think Lewis would have expected to be given some room like most drivers tend to give especially when against teammate. I think personally Nico is probably the most aggressive driver on the grid when it comes to shutting the door, he knows he can get away with it as long as he starts turning before car is alongside but quite dangerous to do and this time it resulted in him going out the race. Whichever way Lewis went for, Nico would try shutting the door so Lewis backs off throttle. If Lewis went left probably less chance of getting alongside before being forced off-track but unlike inside there is chance of making overtake off-track. Could do then something similar to his Bahrain 2012 overtake on Nico.

 

[dopedog]

Suddenly (according to the LH fanclub) a driver in front isn't allowed to block the one behind....even though this has been part of racing since the beginning...

Barca is a proper old racing track it unlike the new ones doesn't have loads of run off, it has grass, this is why the crash happened, look at other tracks and drivers have been doing those moves and just using the run off.... this is why all tracks should be lined by grass or in the middle east tracks lined by slippy astro turf.. drivers think they can just come off track limits far to easy.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Lewis has car alongside, it is Nico that is forcing Lewis to take avoiding action.

Hamilton has his front wing alongside Rosberg's rear wheels for a second before he ran out of road. That's hardly a case of winning the right to fight for the position. Rosberg's move was obviously intended to shut the door entirely, and it's reasonable to assume that Hamilton would not have bern able to hold that position.

Like I said, if the minimum standard is getting the front wing alongside the rear wheels, we're going to see a lot more accidents as drivers lunge for gaps that aren't there on the grounds that if they can hold it for a moment, it's theirs.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Hamilton has his front wing alongside Rosberg's rear wheels for a second before he ran out of road. That's hardly a case of winning the right to fight for the position. Rosberg's move was obviously intended to shut the door entirely, and it's reasonable to assume that Hamilton would not have bern able to hold that position.

Like I said, if the minimum standard is getting the front wing alongside the rear wheels, we're going to see a lot more accidents as drivers lunge for gaps that aren't there on the grounds that if they can hold it for a moment, it's theirs.

This is on a straight where most cars are to the left. Lewis is entitled to stay on track, it will be Nico that is driving straight into Lewis. He had his left front wheel alongside Nico's right rear tyre.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Anyone watched how Sainz did similar move like Rosberg against Vettel on the braking zone of turn 1 ? Rosberg was unlucky that Hamilton slid into him, if he had gone to the left earlier, Rosberg might have had avoided collision.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

He had his left front wheel alongside Nico's right rear tyre.

Again, for all of a second - and since Rosberg never changed his line, the gap was always closing. Hamilton can't drive into that and then claim he had the right to a car's width.

 

[_Springy_]

Having seen the video, it looks more and more like a racing incident. Rosberg is simply following a line he's decided upon on corner exit, while Hamilton dives into a closing gap.

One telling part here is that Hamilton is on the outside of Rosberg mid-corner and on exit. On exit, Rosberg puts his car in the middle of the track to cover his options, and Hamilton cuts across his rear going for a gap that's closing.

From 2:13 in that video from Sky, however, you can see that everything is over within a fraction of a second... after Hamilton had committed to that move, neither driver really had the time to avoid the incident.

This! 👍

I really can't remember ever having seen such a freak accident in Formula One before. And I call it a freak accident because both drivers moved right, at the exact same time. Had Rosberg moved right to defend aggressively, just after Hamilton moved to overtake, or had Lewis gone for a gap that Nico had already started moving to close, then you could definitely blame one or the other.

But under a freak set of circumstances, they moved sharply to the right at the very same moment. So it can't be called either way, really. It was simply a racing incident; rotten luck for the both of them. On another note it should be mentioned that as they started to move, Hamilton was not alongside Rosberg, at all. It was only just before he took to the grass, that he had a fraction of his front wing, alongside Nico's rear-right wheel.

 

[ScottPuss20]

Am I the only one who thinks this race was rigged?

 

[Jimlaad43]

Am I the only one who thinks this race was rigged?

Maybe by Red Bull in that they expected their lead car to make three overtakes on a track you can't overtake on.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Am I the only one who thinks this race was rigged?

Yes.

 

[Akmuq]

Am I the only one who thinks this race was rigged?

Yes.


Edit: Tree'd

 

[Touring Mars]

Am I the only one who thinks this race was rigged?

I'm guessing not, but you'd be in a very small minority.

If it was rigged, it would have had to be a masterpiece of choreography by at least three professional and massively competitive teams, none of whom have any reason whatsoever to collude.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Again, for all of a second - and since Rosberg never changed his line, the gap was always closing. Hamilton can't drive into that and then claim he had the right to a car's width.

He already drove into it and well entitled to do so. Nico did ease off steering, it was a line that was going to take him into another car on track. It would have looked much worse for Nico if Lewis didn't take to the grass.

 

[Jimlaad43]

From the onboard, Nico turns right, but the whole time Lewis is very close, his wheel is ever so slightly to the left.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Nico did ease off steering, it was a line that was going to take him into another car on track.

Hamilton never won the place. He never held ground long enough to claim the car's width of space. I'm not denying that Rosberg made a mistake, just pointing out that Hamilton's mistake was considerably bigger.

It would have looked much worse for Nico if Lewis didn't take to the grass.

Hamilton had no choice but to take to the grass because there was never enough of a gap for him to hold. Rosberg would have had to have swerve back in the other direction.

If it was rigged, it would have had to be a masterpiece of choreography by at least three professional and massively competitive teams, none of whom have any reason whatsoever to collude.

I think he means rigged by Red Bull once Verstappen was in a position to win.

 

[_Springy_]

Hamilton never won the place. He never held ground long enough to claim the car's width of space. I'm not denying that Rosberg made a mistake, just pointing out that Hamilton's mistake was considerably bigger.

They both made the exact same mistake at the exact same time; I fail to see how one can be more at blame than the other here. Although I'd not really apportion blame at all, as it really was just a freak set of circumstances, and a misjudgement by both, that led to a collision. You know the saying, soot happens? 👍