- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
How would we know?
2016 Pirelli Spanish Grand Prix
- Thread starter SVT Cobra GT
- 860 comments
- 37,203 views
How would we know?
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- United Kingdom
We won't but I think it would have potentially been a penalty for Nico for causing a collision. Stewards decision sounded like it was OK for Nico to move the way he did due to Lewis avoiding him by going off-track...
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- Hammerhead Garage
Looking at the Hamilton-Rosberg incident in a broader comtext, I cannot help but think back to the 2011 Chinese Grand Prix. That was the first race where the wheels fell off his 2011 campaign. I think that he was expecting to compete with Sebastian Vettel, but couldn't keep up, and started over-driving the car out of frustration. It's a weird little vulnerability that he has, and I think the same thing happened last night - all of the talk in the build-up to the race was that he had to win while Rosberg could afford to finish second.
So Hamilton makes one of his better starts, and seemingly has the lead into Turn 1 - but the Rosberg just drives clean around the outside; Hamilton has done everything right and it still hasn't worked out for him. And that's why I think the move to the right was symptomatic of his frustration. It's a move that made absolutely no sense. Because of Rosberg's error, Hamilton was clearly faster; he was going to be the first into Turn 4 if he kept his head. But he telegraphed the move well in advance, giving Rosberg plenty of time to move over. He didn't even try to feint to the right and then cut back across to the left. Nor did he back out when Rosberg moved to cover him off. He saw the gap and he went for it, and while that might "make him a racing driver", he didn't put any thought into it.
There was an incident in free practice for the 2011 Singapore Grand Prix where Hamilton very nearly tangled with Felipe Massa. For some reason, Hamilton made an aggressive dive down the inside in the final sector, forcing Massa to take evasive action and putting Hamilton off the racing line. It compromised both of their flying laps, and it was completely unnecessary - the smarter thing to do would be to back out and let Massa have some space. Once again, it was a case of Hamilton showing a complete lack of foresight.
The contact in Barcelona was a racing incident. But not all racing incidents are created equally; if I had to portion out the blame, most of it rests with Hamilton. This was the 2011 edition of Hamilton that we saw - losing his judgement in the heat of the moment and over-compensating when things aren't going the way that he expects them to.
So Hamilton makes one of his better starts, and seemingly has the lead into Turn 1 - but the Rosberg just drives clean around the outside; Hamilton has done everything right and it still hasn't worked out for him. And that's why I think the move to the right was symptomatic of his frustration. It's a move that made absolutely no sense. Because of Rosberg's error, Hamilton was clearly faster; he was going to be the first into Turn 4 if he kept his head. But he telegraphed the move well in advance, giving Rosberg plenty of time to move over. He didn't even try to feint to the right and then cut back across to the left. Nor did he back out when Rosberg moved to cover him off. He saw the gap and he went for it, and while that might "make him a racing driver", he didn't put any thought into it.
There was an incident in free practice for the 2011 Singapore Grand Prix where Hamilton very nearly tangled with Felipe Massa. For some reason, Hamilton made an aggressive dive down the inside in the final sector, forcing Massa to take evasive action and putting Hamilton off the racing line. It compromised both of their flying laps, and it was completely unnecessary - the smarter thing to do would be to back out and let Massa have some space. Once again, it was a case of Hamilton showing a complete lack of foresight.
The contact in Barcelona was a racing incident. But not all racing incidents are created equally; if I had to portion out the blame, most of it rests with Hamilton. This was the 2011 edition of Hamilton that we saw - losing his judgement in the heat of the moment and over-compensating when things aren't going the way that he expects them to.
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I remember Lewis winning that race.
So what is your qualification in psychology and human behaviour @prisonermonkeys and when did you personally meet him to determine what he was thinking in those moments?
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I said "started". He won, which proved that he could beat Vettel, but never kept up the momentum in subsequent races.I remember Lewis winning that race.
That's not refuting my argument by any stabdard.
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Pull the other one. If I was to think of a race from 2011 it reminded me of, it would be be the Canadian GP as similar kind of situation Lewis faced.
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
Let's see ... he won in China, finished fourth in Turkey, second in Spain, sixth in Monaco, retired in Canada, fourth in Europe, and fourth again in Britain before winning again in Germany.
For a driver looking to mount a championship challenge, that's hardly the definition of "momentum".
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- United Kingdom
I guess you could also say Malaysian GP was the first race where the wheels fell off Vettel's 2015 campaign.
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- Hammerhead Garage
Unlike Hamilton, Vettel doesn't over-drive the car when things don't play out as expected.I guess you could also say Malaysian GP was the first race where the wheels fell off Vettel's 2015 campaign.
That was the point I was trying to make, and the point that you have largely ignored: in 2011, Hamilton got frustrated and started over-driving the car. He had proven that he could compete with Vettel, and even looked like he could fight for the title, but nothing came of it - and that's when the mistakes started creeping in.
I think the same thing is happening here. Hamilton has the car to win the title, but Rosberg has dominated the season so far. There was increasing pressure for him to perform in Barcelona - both from himself and others - and he made the same kind of mistake that he made in 2011.
Like I said, his speed was so great that he was going to be the first into Turn 4 - but he telegraphed the move early, committed to the move when he had the opportunity to feint, and didn't back out when Rosberg shut the door. The closing speed between the two of them was similar to the closing speed between Vettel and Kvyat in Russia, and consensus was that Kvyat had the opportunity to avoid contact. I don't see why this is any different.
- 1,680
- Great White North
- I_powerslide
I'm not sure what you think Hamilton should have done in that situation. By the time Rosberg started moving over Hamilton had 2 options: Either run into the back of Rosberg, or take to the grass in avoidance. Rosberg made the block too late for Hamilton to back out.
- 4,221
- Louisville, KY
- ukfan758
Last year's Mexican GP? I remember Vettel making lots of mistakes.
Source:
https://www.formula1.com/content/fo...1/vettel-nightmare-mexico-race-to-forget.html
- 6,928
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Bahrain 2015 remember Vettel making a few mistakes, second race after his victory. Mexican GP was even more eventful for him too.
Same thing happening as 2011? Think the 2016 Mercedes is much more competitive than the 2011 McLaren was. Don't think Nico has dominated the season, Lewis probably feels confident in his speed. So far in qualifying battles where he took part, he has won all of them. In the races where car is not damaged, he has looked quicker. Just needs to get a clean weekend and should be back to winning ways.
I don't think he had opportunity to feint at them speeds. I can see why Lewis did what he did and also avoiding initial collision as that is likely instinct. He would have been better off staying on track and lifting off, probably would get damaged front wing but Nico probably would have got a puncture.
- 9,554
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- catamount39
The one race of the year where a non-Mercedes wins...and I'm not able to watch it. At least I recorded it. 
- 9,401
- Western Sydney
- mustafur
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
Feint. Exit Turn 3 on the right, as he did, to force Rosberg to take the defensive line - but then cut back to the left. At this point, Rosberg is already committed to the defensive line, so Hamilton can drive around him. If he didn't pull it off in Turn 4, he would have made it in Turn 5.
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- TRL_EVOLUTION
Not sure if this has been posted before but yeah.
- 33,155
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- 9,401
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- mustafur
Regardless, no one would expect you to be in the middle in a incident involving Hamilton.
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After watching the replays a few times, I think it's a racing incedent, but it was over ambitious by Hamilton.
Rosberg is allowed to continue to turn right as he exits turn 3. He doesn't really make a distinct blocking move, he just continues to turn right.
Lewis saw the gap and went for it, which he has a right to do, but he didn't really get a significant portion of his car alongside Rosberg until he already had one wheel on the grass. I know the rules say that "any overlap" requires room to be given, but at that closing speed, the amount of time between no overlap and just a little overlap is split second.
With the angle that Rosberg was turning across the track, Hamilton drove his car into a wedge that was always going to close. If Hamilton would have got slightly more overlap half a second earlier, the move would have been on - but that's not what ended up happening.
Still, we're talking inches and fractions of seconds. It was two guys going for the same piece of road, which is bound to happen from time to time. Racing incedent in my view.
Rosberg is allowed to continue to turn right as he exits turn 3. He doesn't really make a distinct blocking move, he just continues to turn right.
Lewis saw the gap and went for it, which he has a right to do, but he didn't really get a significant portion of his car alongside Rosberg until he already had one wheel on the grass. I know the rules say that "any overlap" requires room to be given, but at that closing speed, the amount of time between no overlap and just a little overlap is split second.
With the angle that Rosberg was turning across the track, Hamilton drove his car into a wedge that was always going to close. If Hamilton would have got slightly more overlap half a second earlier, the move would have been on - but that's not what ended up happening.
Still, we're talking inches and fractions of seconds. It was two guys going for the same piece of road, which is bound to happen from time to time. Racing incedent in my view.
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No time for that stuff, he can't lift off otherwise he loses his speed advantage. Once deciding right, he had to stick with it or back off. He saw Nico was more to left at point, Nico seems to see Lewis going for inside and tries and shuts the door on him even when Lewis has part of car alongside his. I think it is Nico's fault more as he is forcing Lewis to take avoiding action. If Lewis didn't, it would be Nico driving his car into Lewis and causing a collision. Nico said he was well aware of where Lewis was so really aggressive by him trying to block off inside in such a manner while travelling a lot slower, made it really hard for Lewis to react.
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- GTP_Orido
Anyone can find the video of Sainz vs Vettel down the main straight ( to turn 1 ) ? I think Sainz did similar move to Rosberg, but Vettel managed to pass cleanly.
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- Hammerhead Garage
Regardless of who was involved, the burden of responsibility rests with the attacking deiver by default. When Ricciardo dive-bombed Vettel, it was his duty to make sure that the pass was completed cleanly. The same applies here.
Yeah, this wouldn't have been a problem if we were talking about the best drivers in the world.
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- Hammerhead Garage
But for how long?
If you look at the crash in GP2, Antonio Giovinazzi was clearly alongside Sean Gelael before Gelael moved over. More to the point, Giovinazzi was there long enough for his presence to register with Gelael. But in this case, Hamilton starts drawing alongside Rosberg as the gap is closing, and then he's off. It's a blink-and-you-miss-it moment.
The question is not "did Hamilton draw alongside Rosberg?", but rather "could Hamilton hold that position?". If the standard for a pass being legitimate is simply drawing alongside another driver, we're going to see a lot more accidents because drivers will dive for a gap that is already closing.
Like I said, the onus is - as it always has been - on the attacking driver to execute a pass cleanly. Like Niki Lauda said, Rosberg was leading, so he had the right to pick his line. He might have been slow out of Turn 3, and he might have been slow to react, but Hamilton should have recognised the closing speeds and anticipated a defensive move - and he was in a better position to do something about it.
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Having seen the video, it looks more and more like a racing incident. Rosberg is simply following a line he's decided upon on corner exit, while Hamilton dives into a closing gap.
One telling part here is that Hamilton is on the outside of Rosberg mid-corner and on exit. On exit, Rosberg puts his car in the middle of the track to cover his options, and Hamilton cuts across his rear going for a gap that's closing.
From 2:13 in that video from Sky, however, you can see that everything is over within a fraction of a second... after Hamilton had committed to that move, neither driver really had the time to avoid the incident.
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Still, I'd say it's a very risky move that Hamilton tried. He knew he had the power, and with Nico taking a compromised line, he could have gotten a run up on the outside for a better exit through Turn 4. He saw Nico down on power, saw him compromise his line (EDIT: or simply forget about the line altogether while fiddling with his wheel), and in that split second, decided to overtake him right then and there.
Not that Nico is totally blameless. He knew he was down on power, and any aggressive defense you play in that situation, given the difference in speed, tends to be dangerous. But he did nothing illegal. He started his defensive move before there was an overlap.
In the end, Hamilton is the driver with more options. Collide. Evade. Slow.Down. He could have picked the last option, but he simply didn't want to give up the overtake once he'd committed.
One telling part here is that Hamilton is on the outside of Rosberg mid-corner and on exit. On exit, Rosberg puts his car in the middle of the track to cover his options, and Hamilton cuts across his rear going for a gap that's closing.
From 2:13 in that video from Sky, however, you can see that everything is over within a fraction of a second... after Hamilton had committed to that move, neither driver really had the time to avoid the incident.
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Still, I'd say it's a very risky move that Hamilton tried. He knew he had the power, and with Nico taking a compromised line, he could have gotten a run up on the outside for a better exit through Turn 4. He saw Nico down on power, saw him compromise his line (EDIT: or simply forget about the line altogether while fiddling with his wheel), and in that split second, decided to overtake him right then and there.
Not that Nico is totally blameless. He knew he was down on power, and any aggressive defense you play in that situation, given the difference in speed, tends to be dangerous. But he did nothing illegal. He started his defensive move before there was an overlap.
In the end, Hamilton is the driver with more options. Collide. Evade. Slow.Down. He could have picked the last option, but he simply didn't want to give up the overtake once he'd committed.
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