2017 F1 Constructor technical info/developmentFormula 1

[TheElbows]

Yeah, the only real problem with monetary penalties is that a team will be able to calculate whether or not they should cheat. I'm not saying the teams would do this, but if it comes down to increasing your chances to win the WDC or WMC and you can look at a rulebook and say "well, it will cost us $17,000 to do this...let's do it" then you're not really accomplishing too much.

It's the same thing you're seeing with engine swaps...once they realized there wasn't a difference between losing 10 grid spots and 65...they went all-out on "abusing" that minor rule.

 

[Jimlaad43]

Isn't docking constructors points a monetary penalty though...

 

[TenEightyOne]

Not really, its a percentage the less you make the less actual money you lose.

That amount of prize money that you might lose from losing Constructor points is x. That x is always going to be a far greater percentage of Sauber's budget than it is of Mercedes'.

Isn't docking constructors points a monetary penalty though...

In effect, yes.

 

[Carbon_6]

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/131767/mclaren-agrees-deal-to-leave-honda-for-renault

 

[Michelin Man]

Interesting, but perhaps not the surprising with all the talks that have gone on. Just leaves Honda hoping that the proposed Toro-Rosso deal can materialise, as otherwise it leaves them in a sticky situation with no one realistically wanting them (understandably). I'd really like the Toro-Rosso deal to work just to see Honda stick around, and hopefully continue to develop and actually get somewhere where they've struggled to do so in 3 years so far. But also because it could of course open the door for a potential RedBull deal down the line which would be great if it worked out.

Now it just leaves us to wonder what happens on the driver front with Alonso, but also elsewhere at Renault and what not and of course what happens with Sainz etc, etc.

 

[Jimlaad43]

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/131767/mclaren-agrees-deal-to-leave-honda-for-renault

 

[Liquid]

10 year deal. Never thought it was going to be successful.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

It'd be hilarious if they still struggle and TR get better, part of me feels McLaren could have done more with Honda to achieve something. I can't fully believe Honda was the sole issue.

 

[TenEightyOne]

It'd be hilarious if they still struggle...

That's a possibility - have they so over-compensated the chassis that they need to redesign much of the innate downforce out of it? Some F1 insiders seem to think they might have.

...and TR get better,

That's why Red Bull are doing it, at least in my opinion. If Honda improve then Red Bull have the opportunity to learn from the engine before implementing in the top team. If they don't then they've still got the Honda money coming into STR in the meantime.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

That's why Red Bull are doing it, at least in my opinion. If Honda improve then Red Bull have the opportunity to learn from the engine before implementing in the top team. If they don't then they've still got the Honda money coming into STR in the meantime.

That's why I've always felt, since it started as a rumor, that they were doing it for one of two reasons. Reason one being that they wanted to see if Honda would get better and then allow factory efforts go to RBR once proven. Or two sell the team to Honda down the line and then earn some money.

 

[Pete05]

That's why I've always felt, since it started as a rumor, that they were doing it for one of two reasons. Reason one being that they wanted to see if Honda would get better and then allow factory efforts go to RBR once proven. Or two sell the team to Honda down the line and then earn some money.

Another rumour doing the rounds is Porsche might make a bid for RBR.

That'll depend on whether the new engine formula excites them or not.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Another rumour doing the rounds is Porsche might make a bid for RBR.

That'll depend on whether the new engine formula excites them or not.

They sat in on the talks, and clearly heard something they liked so far, if it actually sticks and happens we'll see.

 

[marco89IT]

Honda's deal with Toro Rosso should be very helpful for them since STR is the only team to have used power units from 2 different engine suppliers in the V6 era. Surely they don't get the latest developments since they're not a factory team but they can still provide Honda lots of useful data and experience to learn from.
One might argue that they had the best power unit to learn from right from the start in 2014, but at the time even Mercedes was of course at an early stage of development of the newly introduced V6 power unit. Also, around mid-season they clearly stated they were not providing any update to McLaren to prevent too much leaked informations in favor of Honda.
Probably Honda already knows quite a lot about their competitor's power units through simulations, photos, tips from the paddock and other "espionage" stuff. All of this comes from the outside and it's only on paper, while Toro Rosso can provide actual on track data coming directly from race weekends and experience from people who worked and put their hands on Ferrari and Renault power units for hours. It's up to Honda to sort things out but this is indeed a big chance for them.

 

[EngieDiesel]

That's why Red Bull are doing it, at least in my opinion. If Honda improve then Red Bull have the opportunity to learn from the engine before implementing in the top team. If they don't then they've still got the Honda money coming into STR in the meantime.

Red Bull has been pretty serious about wanting to be a factory team, since the general feeling around the paddock is that you can't be a championship contender if you're running someone else's engines. Honda is no doubt going to want to repair their reputation after the debacle this year has been, and Toro Rosso is a nice quiet place to do that since they're a development team that's not expected to be chasing podiums every week like McLaren.

It really seems like Jolyon Palmer was the only one who didn't benefit from this, since Carlos Sainz moving to Renault in exchange for TR being let out of their supplier contract a year early was apparently the catalyst for this whole deal to happen.

 

[TenEightyOne]

It really seems like Jolyon Palmer was the only one who didn't benefit from this...

You could argue that he's made his own luck. If he'd shown the kind of stellar promise of Sainz Jr. then the whole situation might have been very different.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/09/14/red-bull-honda-2019-renault-end-engine-deal/

Interesting, looks like some of our ideas may come true.

 

[Liquid]

10 quid says that Honda start building good engines next year. Just McLaren's luck.

 

[Flex0r]

Very interesting indeed.

 

[shoemaker]

This is the start of a chain reaction that will see Porsche eventually buy the Red bull team. I think it would be great to have them in F1. Perhaps Porsche will supply engines in the meantime, they certainly know how to make a good hybrid engine.

 

[Jimlaad43]

Verstappen: My reliability can't get any worse

lol

 

[Touring Mars]

I'm certainly no expert, but have Red Bull been watching F1 for the last three years?

I would have thought a couple of seasons of development of Toro Rosso-Honda would be a smart before switching the main team to Honda as well - it's been a disaster for McLaren, and if anything it's even worse now than it was at the start of the whole debacle.

McLaren switching to Renault is very exciting - it's been very hard to see such a great time laid so (s)low.

10 quid says that Honda start building good engines next year. Just McLaren's luck.

I'll take that bet if you're serious! (At least, I would be willing to bet Red Bull-Honda or Toro Rosso-Honda will not finish in the top 3 constructors next year!)

 

[Dennisch]

Give Porsche the opportunity to build a flat 6.

*Cries of joy are heard across the world.*

 

[TenEightyOne]

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/09/14/red-bull-honda-2019-renault-end-engine-deal/

Interesting, looks like some of our ideas may come true.

It reads as though Renault have ended the deal, not Red Bull Racing? I guess if Honda are going to come back strong in the next few seasons Renault don't want it to be at their expense.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

It reads as though Renault have ended the deal, not Red Bull Racing? I guess if Honda are going to come back strong in the next few seasons Renault don't want it to be at their expense.

I suppose, it's a weird set of events going on at that end with engine manufactures.

I'm certainly no expert, but have Red Bull been watching F1 for the last three years?

I would have thought a couple of seasons of development of Toro Rosso-Honda would be a smart before switching the main team to Honda as well - it's been a disaster for McLaren, and if anything it's even worse now than it was at the start of the whole debacle.

McLaren switching to Renault is very exciting - it's been very hard to see such a great time laid so (s)low.


I'll take that bet if you're serious! (At least, I would be willing to bet Red Bull-Honda or Toro Rosso-Honda will not finish in the top 3 constructors next year!)

That's not fair TR haven't ever finished in the top 3

 

[TenEightyOne]

A little more (just well-known background, really) on the split in this BBC article, it points out that in theory Renault may be compelled to supply Red Bull under the "no engine supplier" rule but that this is unlikely given that their junior team now have a Honda supply and that Honda has legal capacity to supply RBR.

 

[BrainsBush]

It reads as though Renault have ended the deal, not Red Bull Racing? I guess if Honda are going to come back strong in the next few seasons Renault don't want it to be at their expense.

Yes Renault has confirmed to RedBull Racing (and not vice versa) they will not deliver engines anymore (2018)

 

[Carbon_6]

Perhaps Renault are seeing this as unofficial payback for the last 3 years of treatment by Red Bull.

Can't be doing them any good either that pace-wise they're behind what is effectively one of their customers.

 

[EngieDiesel]

It reads as though Renault have ended the deal, not Red Bull Racing? I guess if Honda are going to come back strong in the next few seasons Renault don't want it to be at their expense.

Perhaps Renault are seeing this as unofficial payback for the last 3 years of treatment by Red Bull.

Can't be doing them any good either that pace-wise they're behind what is effectively one of their customers.

There's nothing malicious about it, that article is quite honestly written rather poorly and makes it sound like RBR is on the verge of collapsing.

From what's been said, in exchange for Toro Rosso releasing Carlos Sainz to move to Renault, Renault agreed to let Toro Rosso out of their supplier agreement a year early so Honda could move in. They didn't want to supply four teams because they felt stretching their resources that thin would compromise the factory team's ability to get caught up properly. Also, RBR's contract with Renault was set to end after 2018 anyway, this is just confirming that RBR isn't going to re-up with them after next year.

 

[TenEightyOne]

There's nothing malicious about it, that article is quite honestly written rather poorly and makes it sound like RBR is on the verge of collapsing.

I didn't read that into it at all - what makes you say that?

From what's been said, in exchange for Toro Rosso releasing Carlos Sainz to move to Renault, Renault agreed to let Toro Rosso out of their supplier agreement a year early so Honda could move in.

Agreed, we've known that for some time. STR get the Honda money and RBR get a new option.

Also, RBR's contract with Renault was set to end after 2018 anyway, this is just confirming that RBR isn't going to re-up with them after next year.

Last time the contract was made was after Red Bull had cancelled it. Renault agreed to new talks and so the 2017/18 agreement was reached. What seems to be happening now is that Renault are not giving RBR the option to renew, they're walking away from the time.

Considering how RBR have treated them I'm not really surprised. Even now it's a TAG when it's doing well and a Renault when it breaks.

 

[Peter.]

Will be funny if the works Renault team has both their suppliers faster than them next year. Shame cause I want them to succeed but they don't have the personnel, whether it be driver or staff, to reach mid 2000's form.

I feel pity for Honda though, as well as frustration. Somewhere between wanting them to succeed amidst all the adversity, and being infuriated at how terrible they have been and how they have wasted McLaren and Alonso's time. McLaren can't even worry about just building a good car when every week they're trying to stop the engine from eating itself. If this move at least frees up Sainz to have a career outside of being a paperweight in Red Bull's driver programme, I will be happy.