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2017 General WEC/ELMS/AsLMS Discussion ThreadSports Cars
- Thread starter IforceV8
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- catamount39
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I did not mean the Z4. The M3 did have a racing engine based on the production one found in the road model. It received technical waivers on suspension and the amount of power it could produce from what I understand, but it was still built to ACO regulations.If you mean the Z4, well the obvious one is a racing engine V8 in a car that has no V8.The M3 was the same deal I believe, a racing sourced V8 that didn't resemble the road cars engine (even though the M3 did have a V8).
If receiving technical waivers excludes a car from identifying with certain regulations, then the Ferrari 458 (and maybe the 488, not sure) is/was the only car that was built to ACO regs by the letter, as it received no waivers. According to Giuseppe Risi anyways.
By comparison, the Z4 and M6 were clearly built as GT3 cars first and foremost, only to be adapted into GTE/GTLM classes for regional competition. So unless he would like to elaborate on how GT2 regulations are not the ACO's, or provide a source on BMW's car being built to different regulations, while elaborating further on why BMW did not return to Le Mans, I'm not convinced.
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You assume I havent already looked, quiye incorrectly I might add.
You want to make an argument then its on you to provide the burden of proof. I'm not going to waste more of my time coming to abother conclusion based on what I've found.
My statement was that the M3 was built to ACO regulations and from what I read, it has been. Technical waivers? Yes. But not because it was a car built for a wholly separate set of rules, rather it was a car that was (in production form) in an entirely different segment made by a manufacturer that didnt have an alternative to use.
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If you've looked it up then you'll know the reasons why 👍 I suspect you've also looked at the ACO rules from the time aswell and know which rules it didn't adhere to
Also I didn't start an argument I stated a fact I think you'll find its you that's trying to start the argument when you allegedly already know the answer
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Thanks for reminding me why I had you ignored.If you've looked it up then you'll know the reasons why 👍 I suspect you've also looked at the ACO rules from the time aswell and know which rules it didn't adhere to
Also I didn't start an argument I stated a fact I think you'll find its you that's trying to start the argument when you allegedly already know the answer
Edit: I was hoping to be enlightened about something which you seemed to know more than me about. I asked for more information on the subject and you were not willing to comply. So there was no argument.
As you have done nothing to support your "fact" however, its laughable to consider it in such terms. So I ask again, please provide a source or I dare say I will have to report you for posting misleading or inaccurate information as outline by the AUP. You stated the "fact" and thus it is on you to provide the burden of proof.
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You mean this when BMW Motorsport admitted it wasn't built to ACO spec?
http://autoweek.com/article/alms/bmw-plans-changes-m3-le-mans
- 44,185
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- Furinkazen_54
Following on i've gone to google and found out:
~IMSA told BMW the cars rear suspension had to be adjusted (Bill Auberlen himself confirmed it)
~Rear wing flouting ACO regs based on wing / roof clearance.
~Engine output different.
~Restrictor size different.
~Front diffuser larger than ACO regulations.
~Engine in a different location to stock...
~IMSA told BMW the cars rear suspension had to be adjusted (Bill Auberlen himself confirmed it)
~Rear wing flouting ACO regs based on wing / roof clearance.
~Engine output different.
~Restrictor size different.
~Front diffuser larger than ACO regulations.
~Engine in a different location to stock...
- 35,208
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Well, the GT rules were going to change anyway just because the ACO didn't want their GT class being outrun by GT3 so as a result, we have GT1 2.0 (Something GT3 has more or less reached when you for instance look at the Matech Ford GT3 and compate it to the Lambda Ford GT). All the new Ford GTLM did was speed up the process because who in their right minds would've wanted to run last year's cars against something that was already matching lap times when it wasn't driven in anger.
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I am of the opinion that the car, while not built in the spirit of the ACO rules, was still nonetheless constructed with ACO's GT2/GTE format in mind. It received technical waiver's, but all matter of components found in the car were not a secret to the sanctioning body or rival teams. According to the date of Holden's link, (from 2009, a year before they eventually did compete in Le Mans), the car was eventually approved for use in all ACO sanctioned series, including the hallmark Le Mans 24 Hour.
I do not and have not considered the M3 GT to be a part of any other classification, as it was not built with any other in mind before ACO's GT2/GTE. It's legality and the amount of technical waivers is in my mind, a separate issue.
If we picked apart the cars that raced in the GT2/GTE class by technical waivers, then we'd be left with the Ferrari, Porsche and Aston Martin across all ACO sanctioned series. No Corvette's, no BMW's, no Spyker's, Jaguar's, Panoz' etc. And I'd be curious to know what specifications, if not GT2/GTE, those were built for.
@-Fred- The E36 M3 GTR with the straight six was certainly legal, but I can not speak to it's competitiveness. It became quite a bit more competitive, but that was after it got a bespoke V8 which was certainly Z4 GT3-level's of "Come on now." Even then, the Z4's engine wasn't purportedly made in the same workshop as the BMW F1 team like the GTR's was.
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On the other hand, even though the GTE Corvette has a smaller V8 than the roadcar, it's still available from the factory with one. Same with the Spyker (production numbers aside, the one that raced was mechanically similar to the racecar), the Panoz, the Jag (altough one could argue the Rocketsport paperweight from a few years back and the Emil Frey XK are both NA while the XKR is supercharged) and etc. I remember the early, I6 E46 GTRs were getting absolutely destroyed by the 996 GT3R's in IMSA, thus the "roadgoing" V8 GTR was born. They supposedly made 10 of them, and sold them for roughly 275k a piece... yet no one's ever seen or know where the other 9 that aren't sitting in BMW's museum are (probably in some rich UAE sheik's garage)
I guess everyone bends the rules, that's why we've got Bentleys, Audis and Lamborghinis in GT3, for instance... none of those cars are RWD from the factory (select few Gallardos aside), but no one continuously bends the rules like BMW, the Z4 (both GTE and GT3) being, IMO, the worst offender.
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Well the VAG cars kinda have no choice as the FIA doesn't not allow 4 wheel drive so I'm not sure that would count as bending the rules considering they HAD to make that change in order to make them compete. Likewise, I don't recall Superchargers being allowed hence both Jags being NA.
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I always saw the engine regs in the same light as how Dakar is done. If it's a production based engine and not a special one off just for racing, then you can use it in the car. So long as it's manufactured from that same group.
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Rear mounted gearbox too
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Gotta love him 
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Tired Tyres
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pictures are now live on the WEC site.
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A world feed I guess with no comms borrowed from 10/10ths http://video.eurosport.de/wec/video-live.shtml
Tired Tyres
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Fire in the pits for the Ford.
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