2019 Formula 1 Pirelli Grand Prix du CanadaFormula 1

[mustafur]

I think most people accept he wasn't in control, that has nothing to do with the penalty being the right one. After he'd made a mistake and gone off track his car ended up back on the track blocking a car that should have been able to go past. That's what the penalty's for.

The thing is blocking is an aspect of racing and Hamilton went into that corner knowing Vettel is off track he did have the option unlike Vettel to approach that differently.

Sure Vettel went on the racing line, but he also made the initial mistake well ahead of the car he ended up blocking.

It's essentially a Penalty on a Penalty, that's why it's not well received.

Add a past precedent that had a different outcome and there is a clear reason why it's a big deal.

 

[TheElbows]

What I find amusing is the number of people defending Vettel's actions, as opposed to critiquing the penalty itself.

Vettel cocked up...and then prevented Hamilton from passing him, thus impeding him. Did Vettel deserve a 5-second penalty? I think it was too harsh. Did Hamilton deserve to be blocked from a legitimate pass? Nope.

In a decent series, the Ferrari teams would have looked at it, radio'ed the driver and said "give the spot to him, they're gonna penalize us for that"...and then let Vettel and Hamilton resume the race - everyone is happy. The problem is we're in F1 where no one is EVER wrong for any reason. You can tell Hamilton didn't want to win like that and was on Vettel's ass trying to actually pass him (which would have been amusing since this would have not been any issue at all...).

Also, as far as I'm aware the F1 penalties system only has a couple of options, and a 5-second penalty rather than common sense race control. Vettel was responsible for the incident, full stop. If this has occurred further back in the pack, I don't think anyone would have cared. If Stroll had a 5 second penalty for doing that against...I dunno, Sainz. Wouldn't have been mentioned in a single post here.

F1 and the team strategists simply need better options for penalties. I watch a few series which often allow a team or driver to redress issues like this to avoid having official penalties handed out. Some common sense would have made the race better - but in F1 everyone puts their blinders on and assumes no penalty will occur and just deny-deny-deny until proven otherwise.

 

[niky]

The thing is blocking is an aspect of racing and Hamilton went into that corner knowing Vettel is off track he did have the option unlike Vettel to approach that differently.

Sure Vettel went on the racing line, but he also made the initial mistake well ahead of the car he ended up blocking.

I've been mulling on this.

The problem is that while he went off long before the spot of the near collision, the rejoining and blocking are all within the same space. He rejoined, he blocked, he kept the place.

If he rejoined, straightened out the car, and then moved to block, he could argue that it was a legitimate block-out on corner exit .

As it was all in one motion, the FIA had no choice but to treat it as an "unsafe rejoining".

 

[baldgye]

You know this for a fact? What if he kept control and maintained the lead? Would you call for a penalty then?

The concrete chicanes have a bollard you have to navigate around if you don’t make the corner (unless it’s unsafe to do so). These bollards make the corner longer and slower and are designed to penalise the driver cutting the corner. So yes, if Vettel had made this mistake at one of those chicanes, Lewis (who was less than a second behind at the time), would have passed him.

If he’d kept control and maintained the lead without getting close to Lewis then there wouldn’t be an issue.

I don’t know if I would have called for a penalty, but if I had the most I would have done would have been swapped the positions on track. The Ferrari had visibly better traction out of the hairpin and a greater top-speed, this could have made for a better battle than with Lewis behind (as the only sector he had clear advantages over Vettel there was no place to pass). And meant that the leading car on track wasn’t retrospectively demoted.

 

[Betty blue]

I wonder why would the FIA bother with 2021 rules if they are promoting "Robotic " racing and reactions with their take on incidents! I mean seriously...Why would they want close racing if they aren't letting the drivers race hard? Is common sense thrown out of the window? Roughly 90% of racing drivers and experts expressed their disapproval on this strongly, Hamilton himself said that he would do the same. Some people arguing this because it's (Vettel + a mistake)

 

[evldave333]

No he didn't, what else was Sebastian supposed to do? Go into the wall and ruin his own race? He made an honest mistake and Hamilton was in the wrong place. Sebastian had no intent on impeding Hamilton, he wasn't in full control of his car. That's the kicker here - if he was in control of the car and cut someone off when rejoining, that would be a fair penalty.

I agree, clearly Ive no eyes, and the stewards were completely wrong probably bribed by mercedes. Obviously seb is not so hyper competitive that he would do anything to win, his dignified behaviour and radio messages clearly indicate this. I cant believe Hamilton didnt get a penalty for forcing him off the track onto the grass its a complete disgrace , the absolute cheek he showed trying to make a pass after it & on the racing line aswell! now that's the kicker isnt it? You should become a steward that way this horrific injustice could have been nipped in the bud rofl

 

[baldgye]

I think what’s important and quite worrying for Vettel fans, is that in both times Lewis and Seb have had an on-track battle, Seb has lost control. In Bahrain he spun after being overtaken by an insane move around the outside. And at Canada he lost it and almost spun off on the grass due to pressure from Lewis...

This was the one aspect Vettel needed to work on from last year

 

[Riptide]

I wonder why would the FIA bother with 2021 rules if they are promoting "Robotic " racing and reactions with their take on incidents! I mean seriously...Why would they want close racing if they aren't letting the drivers race hard? Is common sense thrown out of the window? Roughly 90% of racing drivers and experts expressed their disapproval on this strongly, Hamilton himself said that he would do the same. Some people arguing this because it's (Vettel + a mistake)

Yeh, and that's the exact reason why F1 is becoming very boring the last few years. There's no more hard/tough racing like we had in early years and "bumper" to bumper" races that kept you at the edge of your seat. Lots of incidents [and some stupid race craft] yes, but that does in no mean adds to excitement. AND then there are the "rule books" too that just increasingly makes F1 racing a "circling"of cars rather than hard racing. The drivers should be allowed to race, not worry every split second on what the rule book will say or how he will not hurt the other driver's feelings.

 

[Betty blue]

I think what’s important and quite worrying for Vettel fans, is that in both times Lewis and Seb have had an on-track battle, Seb has lost control. In Bahrain he spun after being overtaken by an insane move around the outside. And at Canada he lost it and almost spun off on the grass due to pressure from Lewis...

This was the one aspect Vettel needed to work on from last year

I think these incidents are considance if any. They had battles were Seb had the upper hand like in Austria. Italy last year was a freak incident and weird in terms of laws of physics.

 

[PzR Slim]

Brundle chucks his 2p in.

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/2...ian-vettel-lewis-hamilton-and-f1s-controversy

 

[baldgye]

I think these incidents are considance if any.

They coincidentally happen when Lewis puts Seb under pressure? Ok...

They had battles were Seb had the upper hand like in Austria.

When both Mercedes had to retire due to mechanical problems?

Italy last year was a freak incident and weird in terms of laws of physics.

So what about Bahrain this year?

 

[MarcoM]

Introduce a form of Joker lap like in RX.

The penalised driver only has to take the extra corner when being told. Then the racing can happen on track and at least we get a podium reflecting the position at the chequered flag.

 

[Riptide]

Another well experienced and respected race driver that joins the vast majority of race drivers that speaks out with plain logic reasoning against the penalty. Much more experienced, informed and logical reasoning than the wisdom of a few couch patatoes that gain their experience from TV [and perhaps FORZA or GTS]. Says a lot coming from a man known to be pro Lewis.

 

[PzR Slim]

Another well experienced and respected race driver that joins the vast majority of race drivers that speaks out with plain logic reasoning against the penalty. Much more experienced, informed and logical reasoning than the wisdom of a few couch patatoes that gain their experience from TV [and perhaps FORZA or GTS]. Says a lot coming from a man known to be pro Lewis.

Everyone's opinion is valid. Absolutely no need to take that sort of tone.

Wurz has his say.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/48593772

 

[baldgye]

Another well experienced and respected race driver that joins the vast majority of race drivers that speaks out with plain logic reasoning against the penalty. Much more experienced, informed and logical reasoning than the wisdom of a few couch patatoes that gain their experience from TV [and perhaps FORZA or GTS]. Says a lot coming from a man known to be pro Lewis.

Good thing we're able to be mature about this.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Alonso offers his opinion:

 

[Riptide]

Everyone's opinion is valid. Absolutely no need to take that sort of tone.

Wurz has his say.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/48593772

Absolutely agree with you, that is that everyone have a "right" to an opinion [though not necessary valid]. AND apologies if you experience the message as "having a tone". It was not directed at either side of the argument, but rather at opinions that shows no reasoning, just self serving belief.

For the record, wise words from Wurz.

 

[kilesa4568]

apologies if you experience the message as "having a tone". It was not directed at either side of the argument, but rather at opinions that shows no reasoning, just self serving belief.

Ever hear the saying about the pot calling the kettle black?

Whiting and Pirro had the telemetry to see through Vettel's less than subtle gamesmanship so maybe they saw something that you didn't? I know what I saw and have to agree with them.

To be honest with you, I've no idea why you're making such a big deal out of it.

 

[twitcher]

Just going to leave these here. Make of them what you will.

 

[Oswald07]

Alonso offers his opinion:

Just going to leave these here. Make of them what you will.

Looks like some exciting racing. All very unique all good for racing as we are still talking about them.

 

[twitcher]

Looks like some exciting racing. All very unique all good for racing as we are still talking about them.

I kind of agree. It’s much better for the racing in general when the stewards stay out of it.

The odd bit is that when, just for example, Lewis repeatedly leaves drivers no room (vs Rosberg in Japan, Canada, and COTA, vs Dan in Monaco), it’s called “hard racing”. When it’s done to Lewis (recent event in a Canada, or vs Rosberg in Austria), it’s a penalty for the other driver.

TBC, I don’t hold Lewis responsible. It’s the officiating that has turned this into a farce.

 

[Riptide]

Ever hear the saying about the pot calling the kettle black?

Whiting and Pirro had the telemetry to see through Vettel's less than subtle gamesmanship so maybe they saw something that you didn't? I know what I saw and have to agree with them.

To be honest with you, I've no idea why you're making such a big deal out of it.

Ever heard about the saying "every picture has four angles". In the eyes of the beholder the angle shall prevail.

PS. Whiting was a steward ???

 

[TenEightyOne]

Whiting and Pirro had the telemetry to see through Vettel's less than subtle gamesmanship

If I dare say... if you're talking about the Montreal incident then Whiting must have pretty powerful telemetry given that he's neither a steward nor alive.

 

[Jubby]

So yes, if Vettel had made this mistake at one of those chicanes, Lewis (who was less than a second behind at the time), would have passed him.

I appreciate the rest of your post, but your point above does nothing but speculate. The fact is that Vettel finished first. In most motorsports that means something. The fact is that Stewards provided a subjective penalty. That's all we really know, in reality.

 

[GroupB]

Whiting must have pretty powerful telemetry given that he's neither a steward nor alive.

 

[AshenGraey]

About that twitter post showing the supposedly "clearly illegal maneuver" at the start of the Mexico 2016 GP...please let's not forget that Lewis wasn't the only driver who cut that corner in that race. Plus at the end of that same lap, there was a safety car because of the crash that happened in back so I'm not really sure what a penalty would have done there.

That being said, I'm going to leave this here. MEXICO 2016, VETTEL VS VERSTAPPEN LAP 68

Race highlights - start at 04:09
https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2016/10/Race_highlights_-_Mexico_2016.html

On lap 68, Verstappen locked up as he was defending from Vettel coming to overtake him in the first corner and since Max had to cut through the grass because of the lock up and kept the position, not even a minute later, Vettel was already on the radio complaining "HE HAS TO LET ME GO, HE HAS TO LET ME GO" and guess what, Vettel was nowhere near as close to Max as he was to Hamilton from Sunday's race....oh and since Max refused to give up the position, he got a 5 sec penalty which gave Vettel the podium at the end of the race. Vettel looked really happy then since it worked in his favor, but when it's not, he turned into an entitled spoiled brat throwing tantrums.

EDIT - Watch this clip instead.



I gotta say, Karma can be a real 🤬!!

 

[ScottPuss20]

I agree, clearly Ive no eyes, and the stewards were completely wrong probably bribed by mercedes. Obviously seb is not so hyper competitive that he would do anything to win, his dignified behaviour and radio messages clearly indicate this. I cant believe Hamilton didnt get a penalty for forcing him off the track onto the grass its a complete disgrace , the absolute cheek he showed trying to make a pass after it & on the racing line aswell! now that's the kicker isnt it? You should become a steward that way this horrific injustice could have been nipped in the bud rofl

Wow what a pathetic rebuttal and a horrible attempt at sarcasm.

 

[kilesa4568]

If I dare say... if you're talking about the Montreal incident then Whiting must have pretty powerful telemetry given that he's neither a steward nor alive.

PS. Whiting was a steward ???

My mistake and my apologies.

Ever heard about the saying "every picture has four angles". In the eyes of the beholder the angle shall prevail.

Can't say I have. I'd be happy to learn how it corroborates what you're debating though.

It's obvious that he regained control and chose to deliberately impede Hamilton with a second steering movement. You can even see him watching Hamilton in his mirrors (see below) to make sure he couldn't get by. It was deliberate gamesmanship and the proof is there for everybody to see in the replays. That 2nd steering movement left the stewards no other choice but to penalise him. How anyone can argue otherwise is beyond me.

I've already said 5 seconds was harsh but Vettel was due a penalty of some sort in the race. You can't pull stunts like that and get away with it as it would set a bad precedent.

This article has a good break down of how they (stewards) reached their decision: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/reason-vettel-punished-canada/4461461/

 

[Riptide]

My mistake and my apologies.



Can't say I have. I'd be happy to learn how it corroborates what you're debating though.

It's obvious .......

It's quite simple - people see what they want to see or what fit their argument and what they see then become "obvious" in their view. Same applies both sides of the coin.

Anyway my argument [as should be clear from previous posts] don't deliberate for or against Vettel's penalty. It criticises the rules per se and not how it was applied. Rules are good, but then it should be applied equally in all similar circumstances and should not make F1 a rule book show. F1 in the last few years is increasingly becoming prey to both.

 

[baldgye]

You know this for a fact? What if he kept control and maintained the lead? Would you call for a penalty then?

I appreciate the rest of your post, but your point above does nothing but speculate.

Well, what if?
and then what if?

..well if...

Sorry, that's speculation...