2019 Formula 1 Pirelli Grand Prix du CanadaFormula 1
- Thread starter Jimlaad43
- 386 comments
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Lad, you asked me a question in regards to the post below;
We know that at the concrete chicanes (which was brought up (not by me)) there are bollards that have to be navigated around. This was brought in to prevent drivers from missing the chicane and gaining an advantage after Nico Rosberg missed the final chicane at this very race track.
The bollard was brought in to slow the drivers down, by forcing them to stay off line and then rejoin.
Lewis was less than a second behind Vettel when he made the error, had he made an error at a concrete chicane (with a bollard), Vettel would have lost more than a second and Lewis would have been able to pass. This was the whole point of the bollard, to give a driver who made the error suffer a penalty and not to allow them to cut the corner.
Vettel finished first on track, with a penalty. Crossing the line first isn't meaningful. That'd be like saying, in football if a ball goes in the net, it's a goal, regardless of the off-side rule. Because the ball hitting the net means something.
All rules and regulations are subjective.
If this is really all you are interested in then you're prior comments don't follow, let alone the reasoning for replying to my response to a hypothetical question raised by another user.
- 3,053
- England
- kilesa4568
Thanks for clarifying it for me. I'm not sure why someone who's blinkered to the facts would quote it though. Kinda contradictory...
I gave you a link to an article (or two) that explains how it was a penalty. If you're still saying it wasn't, even with most of the evidence readily available, that's entirely up to you. I've no idea why but then there's nowt so queer as folk.
Unwatching the thread now. It's getting too repetitive.
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I have proof Vettel deserved a penalty
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/villeneuve-vettel-penalty-ricciardo-canada/4467183/
Jacques Villeneuve says he doesn't deserve one. That's pretty much the standard nowadays, whatever Villeneuve says, the opposite is correct
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/villeneuve-vettel-penalty-ricciardo-canada/4467183/
Jacques Villeneuve says he doesn't deserve one. That's pretty much the standard nowadays, whatever Villeneuve says, the opposite is correct
- 29,857
- Bratvegas
- GTP_Liquid
I have proof Vettel deserved a penalty
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/villeneuve-vettel-penalty-ricciardo-canada/4467183/
Jacques Villeneuve says he doesn't deserve one. That's pretty much the standard nowadays, whatever Villeneuve says, the opposite is correct
Controversial Jacques stuck his neck out on the line there.
- 332
- South Africa
- Riptide065
- LMP Riptide
Clearly you did not read my last post properly as to understand what my argument actually is. In short I don't say his actions or his mistake does not deserve a penalty. I say the penalty is the result of F1 becoming way too much of a legal/rule regulating sport instead of allowing the drivers to "race hard", hence no penalty for petty incidents . Which leaves the only "contradictory" thing around the link you have posted as it bears no relevance.
At least we agree on two things - One this conversation becomes too repetitive [as it's the result of ignorance] and two I'm "unwatching" it too.
Racing fans.net coming up with the actual comparison, and I don't remember people crying about rules ruining the sport then...
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- kilesa4568
AshenGraey
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- AshenGraey
What I'm curious about is why they are not looking at that Vettel vs Verstappen incident in Mexico 2016 which is quite similar to the what happened in Montreal. Creating similiar controversy as well. However, they keep comparing to Hamilton vs Ricciardo and Verstappen vs Raikonnen. In the Vettel vs Verstappen incident, Verstappen was handed a time penalty to which he lost the podium position to Vettel.
Jubby
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True.
Also true.
Also accurate.
And there we go with non factual information. There is no concrete runoff there. Saying any other chicane doesn't help an argument, outside of speculation. I can also say he wouldn't have and we'd both have a chance at being right.
Ouch. That literally hurt me when I read this. That second sentence simply makes me want to abandon a good debate since you're making no sense. Finishing first is the foundation of racing, like outscoring the opponent in (pick a sport).
Nope. Article 4.2 of the technical regs state "Cars must weigh at least 733kg (including the driver and all his safety equipment but not fuel) at all times during an event." Not close to subjective.
I responded that way because subjective arguments allow that (speculation)... which means nothing, as you've clearly called out by the confusion I inadvertently caused you. That's why I want to work with facts and allow someone make an argument that has me change my mind that the penalty was wrong... but if you're not willing to have an objective argument, have a nice day because we simply won't agree.
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This entire debate seems like much ado about nothing. I mean, I guess that's good for F1 since there's not much else to talk about. My way of seeing it... if Vettel wasn't in control when Hamilton had to go off track to avoid him, then that's one precedent - a driver out of control gets a penalty in a non contact, non positional situation. If Vettel was in control, then he took someone trying to overtake off track on exit, which has happened many, many times in F1, that is another precedent - and one Lewis has benefitted from many times. In either case I'd say it was a racing incident. Instead the winner is decided off track. Roll on the renewal of the UK Sky Sports deal.
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Because Max wasn't challenging for the championship lead.
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Exact same observation as mine on the comparison to both the Verstappen-Raikkonen and Hamilton-Ricciardo incidents. In this case, it doesn't really matter if you've regained control or not, only whether you've unsafely run across the racing line specifically on re-entry.
- 6,290
- Washington State
- OutlawQuadrant
To think this was my first F1 race I saw live.
The whole weekend was an experience for sure. My quick takeaways from it:
- My initiation to F1 was a Williams go right by me down Casino straight. It felt fast, certaintly, but it looked pathetically slow once I got adjusted to the speeds.
- Lovely area overall although a few bottlenecks here and there. My grandstands in particular were far away.
- Weather was too hot for me. Even now, my body aches from all that sun exposure.
- If race tracks wants to keep people from just watching on TV, they really need to invest more on equipment informing the fans what's going on. PA was all but inaudible even when cars were not around my section and the sole visible screen was way too far away.
- Related to point above, Vettel's penalty was something I all but missed had I not done an opportune head turn at the screen. Lots of confusion in my section that it was actually Hamilton that had won.
- That kink past the hairpin is rather unfortunate for viewing angles. I couldn't see the exit of the hairpin while those on the other side missed out on any action down Casino straight.
- I took a piece of the wall from the Wall of Champions home with me. We tried taking one of the F signs and we were so close of getting out of it before Security intervened. F.
The whole weekend was an experience for sure. My quick takeaways from it:
- My initiation to F1 was a Williams go right by me down Casino straight. It felt fast, certaintly, but it looked pathetically slow once I got adjusted to the speeds.
- Lovely area overall although a few bottlenecks here and there. My grandstands in particular were far away.
- Weather was too hot for me. Even now, my body aches from all that sun exposure.
- If race tracks wants to keep people from just watching on TV, they really need to invest more on equipment informing the fans what's going on. PA was all but inaudible even when cars were not around my section and the sole visible screen was way too far away.
- Related to point above, Vettel's penalty was something I all but missed had I not done an opportune head turn at the screen. Lots of confusion in my section that it was actually Hamilton that had won.
- That kink past the hairpin is rather unfortunate for viewing angles. I couldn't see the exit of the hairpin while those on the other side missed out on any action down Casino straight.
- I took a piece of the wall from the Wall of Champions home with me. We tried taking one of the F signs and we were so close of getting out of it before Security intervened. F.
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Sadly, as is often the case with sporting events in general...you get more out of the lower series. Go see an IMSA weekend and you actually get to enjoy a full weekend with 3-4 series, and they're not pompous or strict. You have more access to the drivers, and heck, better tracks. The further down the categories you go the more lax it is....and you pay less
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- jjaisli
To think this was my first F1 race I saw live.
- If race tracks wants to keep people from just watching on TV, they really need to invest more on equipment informing the fans what's going on. PA was all but inaudible even when cars were not around my section and the sole visible screen was way too far away.
I've been to more than a dozen F1 races at 4 different venues between 1993 and 2009. Plus a lot of other race events in different series. You're right about the heat and exposure. And watching on TV, there's no comparing the smell of burned fuel and rubber and the sound and feel of actually being there. And trust me, it was a much more visceral experience back in the V10 era--the first time the cars came by you thought you brain was melting. But there is SUCH an abundance of technology available to you now, I'm not sure how you can say you can't follow the race. All you need is a smart phone, a few apps and maybe an ear piece. You have live timing and scoring, pit timing, multiple camera angles, etc. Everything is available to you. Try going to a 10 hour endurance race like Petit Le Mans back in the 1990s--you had no radio commentary, no telemetry, no giant screens, it was almost impossible to tell why there were yellow flags or full course cautions or who went into the pits or who was on what strategy, and who was fighting who, etc. In pre-smart phone days, THAT was a challenge.
Pull all the bits of rubber or broken carbon fiber you want. But it's really not cool to try and steal the signs.
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You tried stealing some track signage but security stopped you? Good for them.
Dotini
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Was the incident really good for F1? Or did it bring the sport into disrepute? Perhaps Vettel should be banned? A lifetime ban from all FIA sanctioned events should be good to get people talking about F1.
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LeGeNd-1
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I wonder what would've happened if Hamilton slowed down a bit more on entry and went to the left instead of right? I wonder also if Vettel had let Hamilton pass by keeping to the left more, would he have been able to repass the Merc on the straight with Ferrari's straight line advantage? We'll never know. Regardless, rules are rules but I think the purpose of human stewards is so they can also evaluate situations on a case by case basis and then interpret the wording of the law. Unless something is blatantly obvious, I think racing is too dynamic a sport (unlike say, chess) to apply literal words to everything that happens on track. You can have all the telemetry and all the camera angles, but in that split second, the drivers are reacting to instinct and physics, and this is what needs to be taken into account when applying these rules. Otherwise just fit the cars with transponders and proximity sensors, and use PD's penalty algorithm. No need for human stewards anymore. There, you can have 100% consistent decisions everytime and no one can complain that a computer made the "wrong" decision.
I don't agree with the penalty because of the whole context of the situation, plus it robbed the fans (who ultimately loses out the most) of a nail biter finish. In the grand scheme of things, I don't think Vettel is going to lose the Championship by more than 7 points come Abu Dhabi, so it doesn't matter in the end. But it's things like these that keeps driving away hardcore long term fans. At a time when F1 is more boring than ever due to the domination, they need something anything to shake up the order. As it is, we'll probably have to wait until Monza until Ferrari is as competitive again. By that time, the Championship is probably all but over.
I don't agree with the penalty because of the whole context of the situation, plus it robbed the fans (who ultimately loses out the most) of a nail biter finish. In the grand scheme of things, I don't think Vettel is going to lose the Championship by more than 7 points come Abu Dhabi, so it doesn't matter in the end. But it's things like these that keeps driving away hardcore long term fans. At a time when F1 is more boring than ever due to the domination, they need something anything to shake up the order. As it is, we'll probably have to wait until Monza until Ferrari is as competitive again. By that time, the Championship is probably all but over.
- 13,047
- United Kingdom
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferrari-vettel-penalty-review-dismissed/4478955/
Ferrari turned up with "evidence" that Vettel did nothing wrong, and it's been dismissed as not worth investigating as nothing new was brought up.
Highlights apprently include Karun Chandhok's piece to camera on Sky Sports analysis...
Ferrari turned up with "evidence" that Vettel did nothing wrong, and it's been dismissed as not worth investigating as nothing new was brought up.
Highlights apprently include Karun Chandhok's piece to camera on Sky Sports analysis...
DesertPenguin
(Banned)
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- DesertPenguin_
*silent chuckle under my breath*
AshenGraey
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- AshenGraey
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- TenEightyOne
