2023/2024 Ford Mustang

[Keef]

According to Wiki, that's slower than the last generation GT3 RS (6:56.4).

Edit* If the C8 ZR1 blitzes pass this thing, Chevy is going to have a field day in marketing.

I've found multiple times for these cars online so I assume manufacturers or owners have had several attempts. Ford says they're going back so we'll see what happens when it's warmer next spring.

 

[McLaren]

I've found multiple times for these cars online so I assume manufacturers or owners have had several attempts. Ford says they're going back so we'll see what happens when it's warmer next spring.

The sad thing is, getting under 7 seconds should be more than enough of worthy praise. But as @Tornado pointed out, Ford's CEO decided to call out other brands with some trash talk:

I want to see Porsche, I want to see Aston Martin, I want to see Mercedes sweat.

We looked at what Porsche had done with their racing Porsches, and we thought we could do it even better.

I want to go bigger in motorsports, but do it in a smart way, and I think companies like Porsche have outsmarted us in the past. Now it’s our time to outsmart them.

And now the engineering team & the driver have to find 10+ seconds of time to make up, which I think will be a tall order.

 

[Rossell2]

Oof. I didn't realise he'd trash talked like that, but I think he's going to be more than a little bit sore. I don't think any of those manufacturers he mentioned give an F.

 

[Keef]

The sad thing is, getting under 7 seconds should be more than enough of worthy praise. But as @Tornado pointed out, Ford's CEO decided to call out other brands with some trash talk:


And now the engineering team & the driver have to find 10+ seconds of time to make up, which I think will be a tall order.

I love the fact that a CEO is treating like this like its a sport. Ford Motor Company skull session before the game lmao.

To be fair, ford may be a huge operation with a ton of "resources" but literally all of Porsche's et al resources are designed specifically to be high performance and efficient. A brand like Porsche is probably valuing things like shop floor cleanliness and all that when they choose their suppliers and stuff like that costs time and money. Ford may be capable of top-tier products but they don't do it very often and typically "good enough" is good enough. That's not how Porsche operates so their entire process revolves around excellence. Even competing closely with a brand like that is impressive to me.

Bottom line is the GTD is another one-off project that Ford can rarely squeeze in whereas Porsche's entire business is based on building cars like that.

 

[MIE1992]

Bottom line is the GTD is another one-off project that Ford can rarely squeeze in whereas Porsche's entire business is based on building cars like that.

Yeah, like I get that the Mustang GTD is meant to be more or less analogous to the 911 GT3 RS, but the price alone for the former seems unreasonable. Nothing against the Mustang, but I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of one having a $300k MSRP, especially when a 911 GT3 RS can go for over $50k less than that. So while I really do like the idea of the Mustang GTD, I think it should've tried to undercut the 911 GT3 RS, rather than cost notably more. When I think of a car that costs around $300k, I think of say, Aston Martins, Ferraris, and the aforementioned Porsches - and maybe the Ford GT. But not a Mustang, no.

 

[05XR8]

Yeah, like I get that the Mustang GTD is meant to be more or less analogous to the 911 GT3 RS, but the price alone for the former seems unreasonable. Nothing against the Mustang, but I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of one having a $300k MSRP, especially when a 911 GT3 RS can go for over $50k less than that. So while I really do like the idea of the Mustang GTD, I think it should've tried to undercut the 911 GT3 RS, rather than cost notably more. When I think of a car that costs around $300k, I think of say, Aston Martins, Ferraris, and the aforementioned Porsches - and maybe the Ford GT. But not a Mustang, no.

Just in the same breath, the GTD smashes Ford’s own Ford GT around the ‘Ring. 6:57.685 to 7:52. Plus, the GTD cost less.
So, does a Ford GT owner keep that car or sell it for a GTD or keep both or don’t bother getting a GTD?

 

[r_outsider]

Just in the same breath, the GTD smashes Ford’s own Ford GT around the ‘Ring. 6:57.685 to 7:52. Plus, the GTD cost less.
So, does a Ford GT owner keep that car or sell it for a GTD or keep both or don’t bother getting a GTD?

Yeah, but that was the previous model in 2007. Ford never did a proper Nurburgring lap with the newer car.

I'd wager most with a 2017 GT could easily keep that and get a GTD to sit in the garage with it and the rest of the collection. Nobody actually DRIVES these things, after all.

 

[McLaren]

Yeah, like I get that the Mustang GTD is meant to be more or less analogous to the 911 GT3 RS, but the price alone for the former seems unreasonable. Nothing against the Mustang, but I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of one having a $300k MSRP, especially when a 911 GT3 RS can go for over $50k less than that. So while I really do like the idea of the Mustang GTD, I think it should've tried to undercut the 911 GT3 RS, rather than cost notably more. When I think of a car that costs around $300k, I think of say, Aston Martins, Ferraris, and the aforementioned Porsches - and maybe the Ford GT. But not a Mustang, no.

Well, that was the whole point of this exercise at the 'Ring, for Ford to validate its high price tag; it's RS money for a Mustang, but it's a race car Mustang that "beats" the RS, so actually, it's solid money. Plus, we're limiting production to further justify the price.

But, for now, all that marketing talk is gone. It would be interesting to see if anyone actually on the order list is bothered by this, but I suspect those people will just flip the car for a profit b/c half the order list are probably Ford collectors or flippers to begin with. The only people who really "lose" out from the GTD being that slow (so far) are the Ford CEO for running his mouth & the online people who've felt a need to "defend/excuse" the GTD being slower for some reason.

Just in the same breath, the GTD smashes Ford’s own Ford GT around the ‘Ring. 6:57.685 to 7:52. Plus, the GTD cost less.
So, does a Ford GT owner keep that car or sell it for a GTD or keep both or don’t bother getting a GTD?

If you can afford both, you'd probably keep both. Otherwise, I think it's driver preference since one's an analog supercar & the other is a road-legal race car.

Value wise, a smart owner will keep the GT. It became one of the fastest appreciating cars in the last 20 years & it's a really safe car to invest in. They've averaged $400,000 for the last 3 years, so it's leveled off, but you could invest that, enjoy it, and then sell it with minimal losses at worst.

 

[Keef]

Yeah, like I get that the Mustang GTD is meant to be more or less analogous to the 911 GT3 RS, but the price alone for the former seems unreasonable. Nothing against the Mustang, but I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of one having a $300k MSRP, especially when a 911 GT3 RS can go for over $50k less than that. So while I really do like the idea of the Mustang GTD, I think it should've tried to undercut the 911 GT3 RS, rather than cost notably more. When I think of a car that costs around $300k, I think of say, Aston Martins, Ferraris, and the aforementioned Porsches - and maybe the Ford GT. But not a Mustang, no.

Maybe I didn't get the point across, but the point was that it's actually going to be more expensive for a large company to make a boutique product than for a boutique company to make their regular product. Unlike Porsche, Ford does not have regular supply chains lined up for products like this, and many of their regular suppliers probably aren't even capable of making parts at the level they're demanding. Which is exactly the reason they're relying on Multimatic to put it all together.

 

[McLaren]

Maybe I didn't get the point across, but the point was that it's actually going to be more expensive for a large company to make a boutique product than for a boutique company to make their regular product. Unlike Porsche, Ford does not have regular supply chains lined up for products like this, and many of their regular suppliers probably aren't even capable of making parts at the level they're demanding. Which is exactly the reason they're relying on Multimatic to put it all together.

The only reason they're relying on them is b/c Multimatic Motorsports is Ford Performance's partner. These are the guys behind the GT GTE race car, and the ones who sell the GT Mk. II instead of Ford, & they are currently the designated builder for Mustang GT4s on behalf of Ford.

Given that that Multimatic already builds the GT3 race car for Ford, naturally Ford is going to rely on them to build what is just a road-going, unrestricted variant that the CEO or some other executive just conjured up as an idea one day in a meeting knowing they wouldn't have to push any of their resources into it.

 

[05XR8]

It’s like return of the SVO. I don’t mind it.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a63387255/ford-ecoboost-mustang-rtr-preview/

 

[05XR8]

I don’t follow Verstappen, but he don’t look happy.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Base model base price: $325,000
Carbon series starting price: $428,000

Link

I'm sorry, but that's just absurd. That's nearly $100,000 more than a 296 GTB which is more powerful, significantly lighter (apparently the GTD, despite the carbon fiber weights 4300lbs) and...you know...a Ferrari. It's also 2.5x more expensive than the ZR-1 which would absolutely bludgeon the GTD anywhere and everywhere. This is the stupidest thing I've seen in a while...at least automotive related.

 

[McLaren]

Base model base price: $325,000
Carbon series starting price: $428,000

Link

I'm sorry, but that's just absurd. That's nearly $100,000 more than a 296 GTB which is more powerful, significantly lighter (apparently the GTD, despite the carbon fiber weights 4300lbs) and...you know...a Ferrari. It's also 2.5x more expensive than the ZR-1 which would absolutely bludgeon the GTD anywhere and everywhere. This is the stupidest thing I've seen in a while...at least automotive related.

This is going to be the real kicker for Ford given the ZR1 just went out & set 5 new production lap records at Watkins Glen Long (1:52.7), Road America (2:08.6), Road Atlanta (1:22.8), VIR Full Course (1:47.7), & VIR Grand Course (2:32.3) with 5 different drivers at the wheel. 2 of these times including besting a Senna by around 2.5 seconds at VIR Grand, & a 992 GT3 RS by 5 seconds at Road America, a car that Ford has called out, but is already around 8 seconds or so behind on the 'Ring.

 

[RandomCarGuy17]

Base model base price: $325,000
Carbon series starting price: $428,000

Link

I'm sorry, but that's just absurd. That's nearly $100,000 more than a 296 GTB which is more powerful, significantly lighter (apparently the GTD, despite the carbon fiber weights 4300lbs) and...you know...a Ferrari. It's also 2.5x more expensive than the ZR-1 which would absolutely bludgeon the GTD anywhere and everywhere. This is the stupidest thing I've seen in a while...at least automotive related.

My lord, why not just make a Ford GT at that point?!

 

[Tornado]

Because a Ford GT would actually take money and effort for Ford to develop. The GTD they can just build a regular Mustang on their production line and then farm it out to Multimatic to throw a hundred grand at it, then pocket the difference when the Barret-Jackson set starts scooping them up.

 

[Keef]

I don't doubt they will build a new GT around the time of the LMDH entry, but that road car will be a 7-figure car. Also, the GTD is going to be a very exclusive car unlike the ZR1. Exclusivity costs money and rich people love nothing more than to spend a lot of money on things nobody else has. A ZR1 is a car you can walk into a dealership and buy on the spot.

 

[TheHun99]

This is going to be the real kicker for Ford given the ZR1 just went out & set 5 new production lap records at Watkins Glen Long (1:52.7), Road America (2:08.6), Road Atlanta (1:22.8), VIR Full Course (1:47.7), & VIR Grand Course (2:32.3) with 5 different drivers at the wheel. 2 of these times including besting a Senna by around 2.5 seconds at VIR Grand, & a 992 GT3 RS by 5 seconds at Road America, a car that Ford has called out, but is already around 8 seconds or so behind on the 'Ring.

I don't want to be off-topic too much but as fast as the C8 ZR1 is, it also has more than double the horsepower of the 992 GT3 RS. I'm no expert but it seems that it really only wins the straights, in the Carousel or the Kink the GT3 RS is clearly faster for example. (Yes, I'm definitely biased towards the Porsche and like the front-engined Corvettes better )

As far as the GTD goers, I agree with @Tornado and @Keef. No matter how good it is, it's gonna be rare, rich people like that.

 

[Keef]

I don't want to be off-topic too much but as fast as the C8 ZR1 is, it also has more than double the horsepower of the 992 GT3 RS. I'm no expert but it seems that it really only wins the straights, in the Carousel or the Kink the GT3 RS is clearly faster for example. (Yes, I'm definitely biased towards the Porsche and like the front-engined Corvettes better )

As far as the GTD goers, I agree with @Tornado and @Keef. No matter how good it is, it's gonna be rare, rich people like that.

Speaking of Porsche vs Mustang, only somewhat related, I just drove a new Mustang ecoboost rental car and it was completely unremarkable.

The car is big for no reason. Outside it's massive, but inside it effectively only has two useable seats. Inside, the front seats are as roomy as a sedan but it's not supposed to be a sedan, it's supposed to be a sports car. The screens worked fine but I don't want screens, I want character and design, and the screens basically eliminated all of that. The interior design that did exist wasn't good, it was bland and basic and uninspiring. The interior doesn't look sporty and it doesn't feel sporty. The ergonomics are all over the place and I can't tell who the car was designed for. This car is everything but it's also nothing. The trunk is simultaneously bigger than my Cayman but also more difficult to access because of the way the opening is designed. The Mustang has nice big cupholders, not flimsy little European ones, but they're in an impossible spot which interferes with your entire right arm, and heaven forbid you have a manual transmission. The brake pedal sucks. The transmission and engine combo is not anywhere near as smooth as Nissan's VQ+6-speed auto from 10 years ago. It was quick but this base model automatic wasn't even shiftable so I was at the mercy of poor programming.

My 2007 Cayman is much more focused on being a sports car while seemingly not losing any useability compared to this mustang. The 18 year old Porsche ergonomics are better, the fit is better, the seats are better, the buttons are easier to use than the screens, the real gauges look better and the binnacle design is more focused and inspiring, the two trunks are more easily accessible if smaller.

The only thing the 2025 Mustang does better than a 2007 Cayman is get better gas mileage, and be large for absolutely no reason. I hate it. The 2017 Infiniti Q70 was a better car in every way, including being sportier and more inspiring.

 

[TheHun99]

Speaking of Porsche vs Mustang, only somewhat related, I just drove a new Mustang ecoboost rental car and it was completely unremarkable.

The car is big for no reason. Outside it's massive, but inside it effectively only has two useable seats. Inside, the front seats are as roomy as a sedan but it's not supposed to be a sedan, it's supposed to be a sports car. The screens worked fine but I don't want screens, I want character and design, and the screens basically eliminated all of that. The interior design that did exist wasn't good, it was bland and basic and uninspiring. The interior doesn't look sporty and it doesn't feel sporty. The ergonomics are all over the place and I can't tell who the car was designed for. This car is everything but it's also nothing. The trunk is simultaneously bigger than my Cayman but also more difficult to access because of the way the opening is designed. The Mustang has nice big cupholders, not flimsy little European ones, but they're in an impossible spot which interferes with your entire right arm, and heaven forbid you have a manual transmission. The brake pedal sucks. The transmission and engine combo is not anywhere near as smooth as Nissan's VQ+6-speed auto from 10 years ago. It was quick but this base model automatic wasn't even shiftable so I was at the mercy of poor programming.

My 2007 Cayman is much more focused on being a sports car while seemingly not losing any useability compared to this mustang. The 18 year old Porsche ergonomics are better, the fit is better, the seats are better, the buttons are easier to use than the screens, the real gauges look better and the binnacle design is more focused and inspiring, the two trunks are more easily accessible if smaller.

The only thing the 2025 Mustang does better than a 2007 Cayman is get better gas mileage, and be large for absolutely no reason. I hate it. The 2017 Infiniti Q70 was a better car in every way, including being sportier and more inspiring.

Unfortunately, I never had a chance to drive a Porsche, let alone own one. In about 2 years I should be in a position to buy myself a sportscar (RWD, manual) and the 987 Cayman (and the 996) would be high on the list if I wouldn't be scared of the maintenance (I have no useful skills for maintaining a car myself and my wallet isn't thick enough ), so planning to buy a GR86. A Mustang would be in general a decent choice in terms of general looks, availability and price even as a slightly used one BUT I do agree with you on the size. I drove multiple S550 GTs as rentals, so I only have experience with automatic. Sure, the V8 sounds great, it's fast enough for me but it's sooo damn big and heavy... I'd like to do an occasional track day (maybe once or twice a year) and having a tanker there isn't exactly my ideal scenario.

Of course, I'd love to sample the Mustang Challenge cars, saw them at their first race at Mid-Ohio last year, they were awesome and they're manual unlike their GT4 and GT3 brothers.

 

[r_outsider]

You're comparing a car that, although it's a 2007, the modern equivalent is a (starting at) $75k boutique sports car, and a base price $65k sporty luxury car, to a $33k car, in rental spec (plain as you can get) yet, that's #1 purpose is to be a stylish daily cruiser for the masses?

I'm not actually disagreeing with your assesment but dude, they aren't comparable things, not even close.