26 cars lined up for 2010 & bile from Bernie

  • Thread starter Sureboss
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Well I agree about the points system changes being a joke but relating the two is speculation ;)
I agree with what was said about the cost cutting, that it should have happened ages ago, not just because the manufacturers are feeling a squeeze. We lost almost all the privateer teams over the past 10 years and quite clearly it wasn't because there was a lack of interest.

The manufacturers/teams should never be the ones to make the rules (as they rarely agree on anything except when its arguing against the FIA), I supported them trying to gain some power and balancing it all out but I'm not so sure I'd want to see the FIA gone completely.

The points system was silly, the budget cap makes sense though.
 
Looks like Litespeed are following March and Formtech's suits and reviving an old name:

Litespeed to use Lotus name for F1 bid

By Matt Beer / Sunday, June 7th 2009, 03:12 GMT

Litespeed has announced that it will use the historic Lotus name for its attempt to enter Formula 1 next season.

The Norfolk-based Formula 3 squad's founders Nino Judge and Steve Kenchington are both former Lotus engineers, and have received permission from Lotus name rights-holder David Hunt to use the evocative title for their F1 bid.

"Team Lotus is synonymous with great British engineering and F1 innovation, such as the Lotus 25 being the first monocoque chassis in F1 and the introduction of groundbreaking sponsorship, both of which easily demonstrate why ex-Lotus personnel would want to bring this championship-winning name back to the formula," said Judge.

"Litespeed was born from a similar British background - a factor that was at the core of Colin Chapman's beliefs and subsequent success.

"David Hunt has been the custodian of the name for so many years and we thank him for entrusting us not just with its safeguard but, more importantly, its development in the racing world of tomorrow."

The team had already revealed that former Tyrrell, Jordan, Renault, Toyota and Force India technical boss Mike Gascoyne had begun design work via his MGI organisation. Gascoyne also welcomed the news that the project would use the Lotus title.

"I am Norfolk born and bred," said Gascoyne. "For me to continue my F1 career under the banner of the Team Lotus name and help to bring it back to its deserving place in the world championship is a fantastic feeling and something that I am extremely proud to be doing."

Litespeed will base the Lotus F1 project in the RTN facility in Norfolk previously used by TOM'S and which later housed Audi and Bentley's Le Mans projects.

The team has also recruited Johnny Herbert, who raced for Lotus in F1 from 1991 to 1994, as a commercial ambassador and driver manager.

Founded by legendary designer and innovator Colin Chapman, the original Lotus team moved into F1 in 1958 after success in sportscars and Formula 2. It would go on to earn seven constructors' titles and take Jim Clark, Graham Hill, Jochen Rindt, Emerson Fittipaldi and Mario Andretti to drivers' championships.

Its last race wins came with Ayrton Senna in 1987, after which its fortunes went into sharp decline - the famous team eventually closing its doors at the end of an uncompetitive and cash-strapped 1994 season.

Lotus is the third famous name to be associated with a prospective new F1 entrant for 2010, with other start-up projects having already announced plans to use the March and Brabham titles.
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So, what is this: an attempt to gain credibility by using an until-now extinct name, or a legitimate effort to rein in sponsors and perform competitively?
 
It would work, having a famous name would really make sponsors ink you're good. In 30 years, a new team may enter F1 and want the name "Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro", and they would instantly become famous. It's all history.
 
PJ-FFL
In 30 years, a new team may enter F1 and want the name "Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro", and they would instantly become famous.
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Except that they're probably going to run into problems in the shape of the actual Scuderia Ferrari being on the grid.
 
Not many days left til we find out who's in and who's out...

What happens if the list is made - then the conditionals pull out - will the others that are "next" in the list be informed...

Surely that would mean they'd have less time for development etc?

What with the no cap next year anyway - that might be the deathknell for their chances!

C.
 
(one hundred and) 24 teams to sign up, (one hundred) and 24 teams,
One pulls out, leaves in a bout,
(one hundred) and 23 teams to sign up.
 
Excuse the double-post (for the hundred millionth time), but we're just a few hours away from the annoucement and there's no discussion in this subforum, so I'm going to take the initiative and liven things up a bit.

Any last-minute tips on who might be joining the grid for 2010?

Personally, I'm thinking it will be US-F1 and Prodrive, with the final place coming down to Lola and Campos. Whoever doesn't get it will likely look to buy Toro Rosso or take over if someone like Renault withdraws. If I had to pick just one of them (ie, assuming no-one leaves), I'd say Campos because they have recent GP2 experience, and everyone still remembers Lola's contribution to the 1997 World Championship.

Anyone else care to stake their claim? I can't offer any prizes beyond bragging rights, though ...
 
The 2010 grid has been announced! And there's a big surprise in store ... I so wanted to be the person to post this!

FIA announces 2010 F1 entry list

By Jonathan Noble - Friday, June 12th 2009, 09:51 GMT

World championship leaders Brawn, plus former champions McLaren and Renault are among the teams that have been told to lift the conditions on their entry to the 2010 championship by June 19 or risk being left off the grid.

After days of intense speculation about which teams would comprise the make up for the 2010 championship, the FIA announced that of the current teams only Ferrari, Red Bull Racing, Scuderia Toro Rosso, Williams and Force India have been granted entries.

It means that Brawn, McLaren, Renault, BMW Sauber and Toyota have all been sidelined for now - pointing towards further frantic efforts to try and find a solution to the row over cost cuts.

In a statement issued by the FIA, it said: "These five teams have submitted conditional entries.The FIA has invited them to lift those conditions following further discussions to be concluded not later than close of business on Friday 19 June."

The inclusion of Ferrari and the two Red Bull teams is also a bone of contention, with the outfits likely to claim that they could only be entered if the conditions attached to their applications to race were met.

The FIA, however, believes the teams committed several years ago when they signed deals with the governing body and Formula One Management tying themselves to the sport.

The list also confirmed that three new teams had been granted an entry - Campos Grand Prix, Manor Grand Prix and Team US F1.

Should any of the five current teams not make the cut, then the FIA is evaluating further entries being added.

AUTOSPORT understands there are three or four other teams who are close to being granted entries, and dialogue is still ongoing.

Campos Grand Prix is being run by former grand prix driver Adrian Campos, with Team US F1 headed by Ken Anderson and Peter Windsor.

AUTOSPORT understands the new Manor Grand Prix team is headed by F3 team boss John Booth and former grand prix team owner Nick Wirth.
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Manor Grand Prix? And run by none other than Nick "Spintek" Wirth? I thought Prodrive was a sure thing!
 
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Where's the surprise?

Force India and Williams were sure entries. Ferrari were obviously not to be left out, and the Red Bull teams have an additional agreement that pretty much ensured their place. The remaining "old" teams need to lift their conditions first - Renault, McLaren and Brawn were chosen, but could've been BMW and Toyota just as well - and so far, no surprise.
 
Does this mean Ferrari, Red Bull and Toro Rosso have done the dirty on the rest of the FOTA teams? :sly:

Campos and Manor. Welcome to the back of the grid. I hope you enjoy your stay.

No Prodrive though.

Toro Rosso still have to be sold though don't they?
 
Metar
Where's the surprise?
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Manor Grand Prix. You said it yourself a while back: I've posted news on every new entrant that I've run into, from Epsilon Euskadi to N.Technology, and aside from one throwaway line about Nick Wirth, there's been nothing on him. Trust me, I've picked up everything and posted it here. We had no indication it was even serious until now. That, combined with Prodrive's failure to meet th grid, of course. Almost everone here took it as a given.
Tired Tyres
No Prodrive though.

Toro Rosso still have to be sold though don't they?
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I believe they have to be sold. I've also heard the're upgrading their operations in Faenza to to become a manufacturer in their own right, so maybe they will be able to hold their own. The article also says that as many as four teams are negotiating with the FIA to fill in for any of the entries if the teams do not amend their conditions or decide to withdraw for other reasons, as I believe Renault are doing; they've experienced a downturn in sales of road cars.

As for Ferrari, I don't think they've betrayed the other teams. I think their being on the list is a part of the FIA's belief that they have automatic entry. I'm just priming myself for Luca and Stefano's denial and rant within the next hour or so.
 
Manor are surprising as the team picked, that's true... But they're Max's bargaining chip. They had no chance to be chosen over Prodrive, Lola and the rest, and are completely and utterly dependent on Max. As such, they're his agents in what will become the future team's organization, and will pretty much do his bidding. That is, if they don't fold before, or are replaced by one of the old teams after the dispute is resolved. And as to the surprise factor, considering it could've been "All FOTA out", it's a bit underwhelming.

Still not a happy bunny until it's all set.
 
Actually, I didn't exect FOTA out at all. They want to be in Formula One, they just want to be happy. The FIA want them in Formula One, but they have a different concept of happiness.
 
The inclusion of Ferrari, Toro Rosso and Red Bull in the list "as if" their entries were unconditional isn't a surprise. These 3 teams have already stated they will not race under the current published regulations and I believe they won't.

What the FIA is doing is a preparation for a war in the courts. To be able to win such a war it was imperative to consider their entries valid, not based in the actual applications lodged, but in some previous contractual obligations.

I think Ferrari, Red Bull and STR are prepared for such a war. At least, Ferrari is and shows no signs of fearing it.

Meanwhile, FOTA now doesn't want to deal with the FIA as if the FIA was Max Mosley. So, they sent a letter to the WMSC. The message we get from such a move is quite clear and, to me, is this one: The guy in charge of the federation is a arrogant person, wannabe dictator, it's impossible to reach any agreement with him. We want to work with the FEDERATION, you guys are a part of it, so come and help. (read disclaimer)

It may not work, but it stresses what in fact is happening.


Disclaimer: of course FOTA didn't say Max was "arrogant" "wannabe dictator", this is my personal interpretation :D


Source and details about the letter to the WMSC: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76048
 
This is getting beyond a joke. It's all politics at the moment. What does Max think he's doing letting Manor in over Prodrive? I must admit I would not at all be disappointed if the FOTA teams call it a day and bring this sorry story to an end.

I highly doubt Ferrari will be on the grid next year, though Red Bull and Toro Rosso will probably be the next two to leave FOTA.

There's going to be a lot of anger about this list, from pretty much everyone except Max and his political chess pieces like Manor racing.

On the positive side, having USF1 is very exciting, even for my and I'm not American!
 
Official Statement from Ferrari. They can't be clearer than this:

Maranello, 12th June 2009 - Following publication of the list of entries for the 2010 Formula One World Championship, which includes Ferrari as an unconditional entrant, Ferrari wishes to state the following:

• Ferrari submitted on 29 May 2009 an entry to the 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship which is subject to certain conditions. As of today, these conditions have not been met;

• notwithstanding this and despite Ferrari's previous written notice to the FIA not to do so, the FIA has included Ferrari as a unconditional participant in next year's Formula One World Championship. For the avoidance of any doubt, Ferrari reaffirms that it shall not take part in the 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship under the regulations adopted by the FIA in violation of Ferrari's rights under a written agreement with the FIA.
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Official source: http://www.ferrari.com/English/News/Pages/090612_F1_CS_Ferrari_shall_not.aspx
 
Okay, after reading the link to the Autosport article posted by Hun200kmh, specificaly this part:
"It is our view that by introducing the balanced and transparent basis of Governance which is defined in the 2009 Concorde Agreement (governance extract enclosed) we can restore a situation where the teams work in harmony with the Federation, a situation which can only be beneficial to all stakeholders.

"Accordingly, we have requested that the FIA join with FOM and the teams to sign a binding agreement that will bring stability at the very earliest opportunity, or alternatively, enter into a separate bi-lateral governance agreement between the teams and the FIA."

The letter added: "We wish to confirm that the teams are prepared to enter into binding commitment to enter in the championship until the end of 2012. This eliminates the misconception that certain teams are going to leave the sport and in doing this Formula 1 will establish a solid and stable platform for the future.

"All of the present competing teams in Formula 1 have significant investments in staff, factories and facilities. We request our level of commitment is respected and that we are allowed to address the changes needed due to the present economic climate in the most effective and efficient way for the participants with the correct governance from the regulatory body, the FIA.

"The existing FOTA teams understand the need to encourage and assist new entrants to the sport and we agree to undertake in good faith any reasonable measures that will help new teams establish their position in Formula 1."
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I hereby declare all of this to be an absolute joke. Unless I'm reading it wrongly, the teams are ready and willing to join the 2010 championship for the next two years and work with the FIA. The FIA, on the other hand, obvously want the teams to join for 2010 and beyond. So what are they arguing about? Bragging rights. It looks to me that both sides are arguing over who is going to be declared "right" at the end of all this.

Can someone please tell me what the WMSC can do about all of this? I mean can they step in and pass judgement on the whole issue one way or another; ie say "You'll be playing by these rules in 2010"? And how does that work, if Max Mosley is the president of the WSMC?
 
This is beyond retarded. The next week shall be very interesting indeed. How long can you play chicken until the whole thing falls apart?
 
Yep, its really dragging on and trying my patients.

I don't know if I can be bothered with all the nonsense anymore.

If it means good racing next year then i can forget about it, but part of me wants FOTA to cut and run.
 
This now goes beyond the concept of "F1 news". I think now we're talking "FIA Governance (ie, Max Mosley) news".


FOTA's press release today. Not a soft language, as you would expect from someone desperately trying to reach a last minute deal. I will highlight what I think is relevant.

Geneva, 12 June 2009. In response to the erroneous statement made today by FIA, the Formula One Teams Association (FOTA) wishes to underline that the entries of all its members - excluding the temporarily suspended Force India and Williams - have been submitted to the FIA as conditional entries.

The entries to the 2010 FIA F1 Championship submitted by BMW-Sauber, BrawnGP, Ferrari, McLaren, Red Bull Racing, Renault, Toro Rosso and Toyota were based upon conditions that have still yet to be met.

FOTA will continue to act constructively on resolving differences with the FIA. Regrettably FOTA is being forced to outline in detail our objections to the new arbitrary FIA proposals and we will release details of our concerns in the near future which will constructively explain why the FIA's proposals are bad for the future of Formula One, the jobs of those employed within the motor-racing industry and especially the millions of loyal fans who are dismayed and confused at the internal bickering within our sport.

FOTA reaffirms the unity and strength of its members, welcomes the three new F1 entrants announced today and remains committed to work with all the bodies of the Federation Internationale de l'Automobile to resolve our differences.
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Source: http://www.teamsassociation.org/press-release/2009-06-12/press-release

I find it interesting the mention of "all the bodies of the FIA". We know about the WMSC, are they sending a call to the national federations? Will we hear from them?


Anyway, this matter indeed left the status of a FIA-FOTA war. Today, the European Car Manufacturers Association - ACEA - also expressed that it wants a change in F1 governance.

Source: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76093
 
So, Manor will outsource the construction at first to Nick Wirth:

Wirth to build Manor's Formula 1 car

By Pablo Elizalde Friday, June 12th 2009, 11:31 GMT


Wirth Research has confirmed a exclusive partnership with the Manor Grand Prix team to produce its Formula 1 car for 2010.

Formula 3 squad Manor was one of three new teams included on the FIA's entry list for next season, and former F1 chief designer Nick Wirth will be working on the new car.

The services will be provided by WR Technology Ltd as well as Wirth Research.

"Up until recently even my closest friends and family would have confirmed that I had no interest in making a return to designing Formula 1 cars," Wirth said.

"It's only with the exciting possibilities of cost constraints, with a refreshing new emphasis on design ingenuity and resource efficiency, that Formula 1 has now become a viable and fascinating new challenge for Wirth Research, and we will make sure it has all of the race-winning know-how that our previous cars have enjoyed.

"We see this project as a wonderful opportunity to demonstrate the quality of our work, increase our range of technology and engineering capacity to the benefit of all our existing and potential clients beyond Formula 1.

"As the project evolves, we hope to continue to demonstrate the benefits of our unique approach to Development in the Digital Domain."

Manor will be using Cosworth engines in 2010.
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So Lola, proven constructor, and Prodrive (with the Aston Martin resources), are rejected, and a Formula 3 squad that will outsource the construction is accepted? :odd:
 
chrisbroughton
This is getting beyond a joke. It's all politics at the moment. What does Max think he's doing letting Manor in over Prodrive? I must admit I would not at all be disappointed if the FOTA teams call it a day and bring this sorry story to an end.
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Hang on, once again why does everyone overlook Nick Wirth? They are somewhat reputable ya know....granted, not up there with Prodrive or Lola but not so rediculous as some are making out.
Wirth Research do design and supply the Acura LMP's, and Nick himself has been around the block in F1.
And Simtek was a promising race team at one point.

Not to say I wasn't surprised though, its a massive surprise! But seriously, the Manor entry is similar to the Litespeed/Team Lotus entry in terms of resources and expertise.

Also, I found an interesting piece of information that perhaps gives an idea of why this entry got in (tied with what Metar said earlier):
Wikipedia
In 2006 Wirth began working for the FIA in the Casumaro windtunnel in Italy on the split rear wing design that the FIA proposed for the 2008 F1 season.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirth_Research

Ok, its not a reliable resource, but still...definitely seems an FIA-loyal entry that was chosen. If Nick has been working with them before, it certainly helps his chances.
 
Stevisiov.
Yep, its really dragging on and trying my patients.
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You're the first doctor I know that gives motorsport therapy....:lol: While we're on subject, I suffer from lead foot, how many hours of Le Mans should I take this weekend?

But seriously, I agree, F1 is a joke now, I don't even watch the races anymore...

Ardius
Hang on, once again why does everyone overlook Nick Wirth? They are somewhat reputable ya know....granted, not up there with Prodrive or Lola but not so rediculous as some are making out.
Wirth Research do design and supply the Acura LMP's, and Nick himself has been around the block in F1.
And Simtek was a promising race team at one point.

Not to say I wasn't surprised though, its a massive surprise! But seriously, the Manor entry is similar to the Litespeed/Team Lotus entry in terms of resources and expertise.
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I think it's quite clear that for Max, it's not about bringing the most elite entities of motorsport to F1, but any team that suits his fancy,even if it's only "somewhat reputable" gets prioritized. Litespeed even prefers to use another name for crying out loud! (A name they don't even have the rights to...)
 
You guys do realise there is simply no way Mosley was the only person who went over the applications, right? I know the terms "Max Mosley" and "FIA" have been interchangeable for a while now - espeically over the past few weeks - and while he certainly had some influence over the selection process, there's no way he was the only man who did it.

Also, if this goes to the WMSC, can they end the row once and fo all by passing judgement on the thing?
 

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