A better view of Gran Turismo 7's Economy... And Grind

[Samus]

I'm not justifying or excusing a damn thing

Yes you are. You're trying to do exactly that by claiming their offers of MT are not as in your face as other games, as if that somehow makes them better.

The button is not subtle, it's very easy to see, especially when you haven't enough credits. It even pops up when you're gaining credits, a constant little reminder that it's there, all the time.

You're also still ignoring all the other things the game does to push you towards them, beyond the simple pop-up when buying a car. You have the limited time invitations, you have cars that can only be bought for a week at a time, every 2-5 months. You

These are all designed in some way to tempt you into buying them, yes. That's what all MTs do, they tempt you in some way by making them desirable vs time/energy doing it another way. But just because one game tempts you a bit harder doesn't make one that is less in your face any better. They're all bad, GT doesn't get a pass just because it doesn't have flashing lights around the button and pop-ups reminding you about them.

 

[Scaff]

Jesus Christ. Does "Top up on the PlayStation store" translate to "CLICK HERE TO BUY CREDITS AND SKIP THE GRIND"? No, it doesn't.

A strawman as that's not what you argued and I quoted.

Knowing you have the ability to buy credits is you being tempted,

Which is an integral part of MTX design, do you actually think MTX design works to capture 100% of the player base? It doesn't.

which is very different than the game advertising the MTX the way others do such as random notifications, reminders on loading screens, % off holiday deals, and offerings of adding the exact credit amount your missing from any given purchase for an adjusted rate in order to make you feel as if its something you have to do if you really want that item and don't want to work for it.

MTX's aren't a monolithic entity and can be introduced in numerous ways (often to ensure they are legal in as many markets as possible), not being of the most predatory form doesn't suddenly mean they havn't been designed into a title.

Also, true MTX pushed games give you an endless outlet to spend money on with an RNG based reward (IE loot boxes) that are only achievable from those MTX. This has nothing of the sort, so how was this a major core design if there's no gambling aspect to it?

Because that makes your game illegal to sell in an increasing number of markets, the MTX route that PD has taken is one that is legal (currently) in every market.

I'm not justifying or excusing a damn thing, I'm pointing out the insane amount of unjustified anger people harbor at a system that is so easily ignored and in no way grounds for a narrative that the game is a MTX cash grab at its core.

You are absolutely justifying it, you're attempting to argue that only the most predatory approaches are real MTX's, which is simply not true.

 

[k20_Bones]

You mean apart from a dedicated screen that tracks the collection of every car in the game that is literally introduced to you by one of the talking heads telling you to try and collect them all!

If the talking heads are considered encouragement on par with actual rewards, then I ****ed up by not reading that nonsense.

That's exactly how the psychology of MTX's works, as such it's an acknowledgment that they are a part of the game's design.

MTX are designed to play on peoples desire for instant gratification. If you cant control your temptations then that's on you. If there were MTX ONLY REWARDS attainable via MTX then this wouldn't even be a conversation. Since they're not, that makes them 100% avoidable. that's the definition of not pushing MTX on a player base. Your self control issues are not PD's problem.

 

[Scaff]

If the talking heads are considered encouragement on par with actual rewards, then I ****ed up by not reading that nonsense.

Once again a strawman argument, you specifically claimed no such mechanism existed, and again when it's pointed out that it does you try and shift the discussion. It's poor debating technique and more importantly highlights the inaccuracy of your claims.

MTX are designed to play on peoples desire for instant gratification.

Which is exactly how they operate in GT7, and is clearly a design of the game.

If you cant control your temptations then that's on you.

Empathy is a stranger to you it seems.

If there were MTX ONLY REWARDS attainable via MTX then this wouldn't even be a conversation. Since they're not, that makes them 100% avoidable. that's the definition of not pushing MTX on a player base.

No it's not at all, you don't get to define MTX's in a new, limited way, to try and prove a point.

Your self control issues are not PD's problem.

I do hope you can demonstrate I have self-control issues, otherwise, you can quit using personal digs in place of a reasoned discussion.

 

[Samus]

MTX are designed to play on peoples desire for instant gratification. If you cant control your temptations then that's on you.

So you don't believe in the concept of predatory behaviour? You don't think all the adverts for gambling, all the introductory offers, all the betting shops with flashy banners on the high street are a predatory behaviour towards people they know struggle to control their temptations?

Of course some of it is on you, but if you constantly have the devil on your shoulder saying "go on" it's absolutely making it worse.

If you had a friend who was a recovering alcoholic would you keep offering them a drink every time they came to your house? Or maybe just leave some on the table next to them, tempt them? I'd hope not, but that's exactly what PD and other companies are doing.

 

[k20_Bones]

So you don't believe in the concept of predatory behaviour? You don't think all the adverts for gambling, all the introductory offers, all the betting shops with flashy banners on the high street are a predatory behaviour towards people they know struggle to control their temptations?

Of course some of it is on you, but if you constantly have the devil on your shoulder saying "go on" it's absolutely making it worse.

If you had a friend who was a recovering alcoholic would you keep offering them a drink every time they came to your house? Or maybe just leave some on the table next to them, tempt them? I'd hope not, but that's exactly what PD and other companies are doing.

Once again a strawman argument, you specifically claimed no such mechanism existed, and again when it's pointed out that it does you try and shift the discussion. It's poor debating technique and more importantly highlights the inaccuracy of your claims.

Which is exactly how they operate in GT7, and is clearly a design of the game.

Empathy is a stranger to you it seems.

No it's not at all, you don't get to define MTX's in a new, limited way, to try and prove a point.

I do hope you can demonstrate I have self-control issues, otherwise, you can quit using personal digs in place of a reasoned discussion.

Lol you guys don’t read do you? I’m Done arguing about this now that you guys clearly don’t take the time to consider someone else’s opinion on a debated topic, cause if you did you would see I never defended the MTX. But anyway, Like it or not, GT7 doesn’t have PREDATORY MICRO TRANSACTIONS. Just because you think all MTX are bad, and don’t know how to ignore a feature that you don’t even have to interact with unless you want to, doesn’t mean that the game is deliberately steering you into paying for those services.

 

[Samus]

Lol you guys don’t read do you? I’m Done arguing about this now that you guys clearly don’t take the time to consider someone else’s opinion on a debated topic, cause if you did you would see I never defended the MTX. But anyway, Like it or not, GT7 doesn’t have PREDATORY MICRO TRANSACTIONS. Just because you think all MTX are bad, and don’t know how to ignore a feature that you don’t even have to interact with unless you want to, doesn’t mean that the game is deliberately steering you into paying for those services.

It is, though. You just don't see it, or choose to ignore it.

 

[Coiler]

It has 100% predatory mtx, time limited legendary car offers that go up in time is not a proof enough?

 

[Grimm6Jack]

But anyway, Like it or not, GT7 doesn’t have PREDATORY MICRO TRANSACTIONS. Just because you think all MTX are bad, and don’t know how to ignore a feature that you don’t even have to interact with unless you want to, doesn’t mean that the game is deliberately steering you into paying for those services.

It does have predatory MTX.

-FOMO mechanics. (up to 2 months for a car to appear again to be available to be bough... really?)
-Long grinds. (several hundred hours)
-The option to buy them appearing all the times you attempt to buy anything, and even when you get free credits earned.

All of these can be ignored. But, MTX are not a target for 100% of the playerbase. Not all people are equal, and PD knows there are just enough people out there with money that just won't stand for these long grinds and therefore use their wallets, just go on youtube and see them already just buying things out to avoid the long ass grinds.
This however makes the game for the people that don't use MTX, tedius, as it doesn't offer enough for everyone but a niche group of players to just enjoy the game.

 

[Scaff]

Lol you guys don’t read do you?

Yes we do, and the attitude can stop now.

I’m Done arguing about this now that you guys clearly don’t take the time to consider someone else’s opinion on a debated topic,

It's not an opinion that MTXs are presented to the user when buying a car or that a screen exists that is dedicated to collecting all of the cars, yet you denied the existence of both of these. It's not an opinion that MTX's are only MTX's if they meet some mythical status of 'most predatory'.

cause if you did you would see I never defended the MTX.

In attempting to explain away GT7's MTXs as some kind of lesser version, and claim the title wasn't designed to encourage their use, you have clearly defended them.

But anyway, Like it or not, GT7 doesn’t have PREDATORY MICRO TRANSACTIONS.

It does, just because they are not as egregious as the very worst examples around doesn't change that.

Just because you think all MTX are bad,

They are, and so much for you not defending them.,

and don’t know how to ignore a feature that you don’t even have to interact with unless you want to, doesn’t mean that the game is deliberately steering you into paying for those services.

Its very design does exactly that, and you have been asked to stop the strawman arguments and personal digs.

 

[rkwld]

Lol you guys don’t read do you? I’m Done arguing about this now that you guys clearly don’t take the time to consider someone else’s opinion on a debated topic, cause if you did you would see I never defended the MTX. But anyway, Like it or not, GT7 doesn’t have PREDATORY MICRO TRANSACTIONS. Just because you think all MTX are bad, and don’t know how to ignore a feature that you don’t even have to interact with unless you want to, doesn’t mean that the game is deliberately steering you into paying for those services.

When you are very clearly in the minority of arguing an issue, it is you that should consider what you are missing in the argument. What you fail to understand, or choose to ignore, is that just because MTX not being flashed all over the screen or being a requirement does not mean they aren't predatory or impactful. The entire game and its economy is based around MTXs. This is the issue and why it is predatory otherwise there would literally be no reason whatsoever from a gameplay perspective to have brand invitations or LCD with limited time offerings and variable pricing. The inclusion of MTX is so predatory that it seeps into how the rest of the game performs. Events are purposely given poor payouts leading to a grind of the only 3 races that offer anything of value. This wasn't done arbitrarily. It is by design.

If you do not understand the psychology of marketing around MTX then you should brush up on it to have a worthwhile discussion. Predatory marketing takes many shapes and forms and isn't always limited to just a commercial or advertisement being subjected on you. Even something as simple as the roulette system falls into this category. The rewards are determined when you receive the ticket and not during the actual roulette phase even though the presentation makes it seem like you have an even chance to win any of the prizes (which is actually how roulette works). It's predatory, you just don't want to acknowledge it.

 

[Nathan88]

After 6 months owning GT7 I finally engaged in what some would consider grinding. Spent an evening doing the Le Mans 700pp event and earned around 8m credits. I wouldn’t call it a chore, it was something to keep me occupied, while I watched TV & listened to a podcast.

Together with recent Time Trials I’ve added 14-15m. I haven’t yet done most Circuit Experience events which is another 30-35m.

The 917 & F1 road car are the only super high value models I’ll have to set time aside to earn. My final garage will not include any (purchased) VGT’s or classics before the early 70’s. Those would total many tens of millions. But they don’t interest me.

Never felt the need to rush and purchase a car when it shows up in a particular dealership. And certainly no need or desire to purchase MTX. Which is absolutely not the case for certain other titles I’ve put plenty of time into. Such as numerous Battlefield’s and their weapon levelling up grind.

With all that said, I don’t think anyone would argue we don’t need more high paying events. The most obvious being Gr.1 endurance races & an F1 series.

 

[Monkdapunk]

They should have just released GT4:Remastered and played GT7 at least once before they released it.

 

[C_Raccoon23]

1.9M per hour can be considered as low, but honestly I'm fine with it. The main (and huge) problem is the lack of events and diversity...
I mean, we should have a WTC LeMans like for each big circuit (Nurb, Interlagos, Monza, Mount Panorama...). I'm seriously tired to do the same race.
Or at the very least, give us the opportunity to grind the Human Comedy mission (8 1.2M credit missions repetable would solve some problem for a few weeks/months...)

A high payout WTC 600, 700, and 800 event at most of the track locations would accomplish so much in terms of variety and replayability.

On another note, I really don’t understand PD’s haphazard choices when it comes to adding events. Sometimes we get menu books. But then we get the four races that were added for Barcelona in the most recent update, which at best fall under the category of early to mid-game. There is no incentive for the players who have already completed the Cafe to do those. PD should just focus more on adding races that could be considered post-game content like 30 minute and hour long races with high payouts similar to Tokyo, Spa, etc. Finding a purpose for the International B and higher licenses already would be great too. Hopefully we get something of substance in this week’s update.

 

[breeminator]

Personally, I still haven't done any "grinding" in GT7. If I want to play the game, I play it. I've even done some missions multiple times, earning zero credits, because those are what I wanted to do in the game at that time. I'm gradually picking up the legendary cars, and as I own more of them, there's fewer remaining to buy, so my credit balance has started to rise. It had reached 23m, so I picked up the 911 GT1 Strassenversion. I made 1.7m of the cost back by trying it for the Tokyo race a couple of times, not to grind for the sake of earning credits, but because I wanted to see what it could do for the race. There's still loads of cars I haven't tried for the Tokyo race yet, so I don't NEED any of the other legendary cars to have new things to do in the game, I can just try other cars out first, and pick up the remaining legendary cars when they next appear and I have enough credits.

I would very much like to see some new races with the same conditions each time you do it, and the same payout per minute as Tokyo, though. Some races like that for Gr BoP cars would be nice (like the Maggiore mission, but with the Tokyo payout per minute). And at least one at 700 to fill the gap between the Tokyo and Sardegna races (the current Le Mans race doesn't have the same conditions each time you do it, so is hopeless for comparing different cars).

 

[Will Once]

The entire game and its economy is based around MTXs.

Hmmm ... really? I've played every GT since the beginning, more or less, and I've never once been tempted into a micro transaction.

Okay, so MTX exist. Okay, the price of some cars is eye-watering, let alone the idea of buying everything. But there is still a game in there that you can play without dipping into your wallet

 

[Dave A]

Hmmm ... really? I've played every GT since the beginning, more or less, and I've never once been tempted into a micro transaction.

Okay, so MTX exist. Okay, the price of some cars is eye-watering, let alone the idea of buying everything. But there is still a game in there that you can play without dipping into your wallet

Which is missing the entire point of the post you responded to.

 

[NAXEHT]

I’ve pretty much forgotten the existence of MTX in the game.

 

[Nathan88]

I’ve pretty much forgotten the existence of MTX in the game.

The biggest issue these days is not the economy per se. Credit earning potential is reasonable & MTX are not attractive to your typical player.

It’s a combination of the lack of newer, higher paying, events, utilising the likes of Gr.1 & F1. For the life of me I don’t know why they’ve not yet been added. You have to imagine PD have such things lined up in their roadmap.

 

[Samus]

it was something to keep me occupied, while I watched TV & listened to a podcast

Not exactly a ringing endorsement of entertainment, is it?

"Gran Turismo 7 - It's great to keep you occupied whilst you do other things"

 

[rkwld]

The biggest issue these days is not the economy per se. Credit earning potential is reasonable & MTX are not attractive to your typical player.

It’s a combination of the lack of newer, higher paying, events, utilising the likes of Gr.1 & F1. For the life of me I don’t know why they’ve not yet been added. You have to imagine PD have such things lined up in their roadmap.

They have not been added because of MTX. Adding these races would require higher payouts which would reduce the earning potential of the system they have created. This is what I mean when I say that even though MTX aren't in your face, they are much more insidious because they dictate the entire design philosophy of the game and its updates. Higher paying races will be released when more expensive cars are released and you better believe that the ratio of car value vs. event payouts has already been calculated. Sony is a publicly traded company and if there is one thing investors like it is getting accurate revenue forecasts. None of this stuff is done arbitrarily and as much as people like to rag on PD, they aren't amateurs or indie developers. There is a lot of money involved.

 

[Grimm6Jack]

Not exactly a ringing endorsement of entertainment, is it?

"Gran Turismo 7 - It's great to keep you occupied whilst you do other things"

Been saying for quite a while, some people who want to defend GT7's economy go to those lenghts, without realizing how little sense they are making with their own arguments. And then this:

Credit earning potential is reasonable

No... it's definitely not.

 

[Scaff]

The biggest issue these days is not the economy per se. Credit earning potential is reasonable

It still remains one of the worst, if not the worst, of any title in the series. Not what I would call reasonable at all.

& MTX are not attractive to your typical player.

As has been explained countless times, across numerous threads, effective and targeted MTXs are not supposed to be, that's not how you make them effective money spinners.

It’s a combination of the lack of newer, higher paying, events, utilising the likes of Gr.1 & F1. For the life of me I don’t know why they’ve not yet been added. You have to imagine PD have such things lined up in their roadmap.

Odd then that a logical series of explanations, that are supported by evidence of exactly how MTX's work when designed into a title have been repeatedly posted and you've somehow missed them all.

Occam's razor gives us two likely answers to your question (I'm discounting the PD don't give a **** one):

• PD/Sony are too incapable of doing so
• PD/Sony want to maximise revenue using a mechanism they built into the title

Neither is a great look, but given that almost every dev on the planet manages to incorporate content (be it launch or DLC) into the titles they craft, it makes the latter the more likely one.

As for the 'future' roadmap argument, really, BeamNG has done a better job of incorporating updates into its single player and that doesn't even have a career mode yet! This is a AAA studio from one of (if not) the biggest players in the gaming industry, yet in nearly six months, they can't get it passed the roadmap stage. Do you honestly really believe that?

 

[Zero2Oblivion]

I skipped out of this debate yesterday, because it's a dumb debate.

Absolutely no-one in this thread actually knows why PD put micro transactions in the game, we're all just assuming. Our assumptions are obviously based on our own experiences in life and gaming, and so vary hugely.

Unless PD come forward and give a 100% honest explanation of their reasoning and intent, these debates could go on for years, with neither side of the debate being able to prove their perspective as being the "correct" one.

It could be that PD view MTX as a way to increase revenue with some subtle steps to improve the chances of people buying, it could be that they just wanted to give people the option. And it could honestly be a bit of both.

Some of us just view MTX as a minor detail that we'll never purchase, some of us get FOMO and see MTX inclusion as an attempt to exploit that.

Either way, unless we all get a sit down with Kaz to go over the reasoning, planning, implementation and expectations of MTX in the game, we'll never actually know why they're there.

 

[Scaff]

I skipped out of this debate yesterday, because it's a dumb debate.

And yet back you come, and no it's not a dumb debate, but nice try.

Absolutely no-one in this thread actually knows why PD put micro transactions in the game, we're all just assuming. Our assumptions are obviously based on our own experiences in life and gaming, and so vary hugely.

Unless PD come forward and give a 100% honest explanation of their reasoning and intent, these debates could go on for years, with neither side of the debate being able to prove their perspective as being the "correct" one.

It could be that PD view MTX as a way to increase revenue with some subtle steps to improve the chances of people buying, it could be that they just wanted to give people the option. And it could honestly be a bit of both.

Some of us just view MTX as a minor detail that we'll never purchase, some of us get FOMO and see MTX inclusion as an attempt to exploit that.

Either way, unless we all get a sit down with Kaz to go over the reasoning, planning, implementation and expectations of MTX in the game, we'll never actually know why they're there.

The single most logical conclusion for putting a chargeable service in a title is to make money. Anything else is an extraordinary claim that will require extraordinary evidence to support.

It's a not very well reasoned attempt to close down a valid line of discussion.

Oh and you don't need to suffer from FOMO to see MTXs as exploitative, that line of 'well it's just your fault' has already failed once today.

 

[Zero2Oblivion]

The single most logical conclusion for putting a chargeable service in a title is to make money. Anything else is an extraordinary claim that will require extraordinary evidence to support.

My point isn't whether or not MTX is there to make money - that is what MTX does by its nature.

My point is that we don't know if they were put there to take advantage of people who have FOMO, or because of the poorly balanced economy, or just an option for people who don't want to grind, or if it was all of the above.

 

[Grimm6Jack]

Unless PD come forward and give a 100% honest explanation of their reasoning and intent, these debates could go on for years, with neither side of the debate being able to prove their perspective as being the "correct" one.

Update 1.07

You're welcome.

 

[Zero2Oblivion]

Update 1.07

You're welcome.

I went through the patch notes on that update and read the gtplanet topic on it, there is nothing in there that mentions MTX let alone explains why they're there.

 

[Scaff]

My point isn't whether or not MTX is there to make money - that is what MTX does by its nature.

My point is that we don't know if they were put there to take advantage of people who have FOMO, or because of the poorly balanced economy, or just an option for people who don't want to grind, or if it was all of the above.

Good job we have plenty of other info to help point us in a direction isn't it.

 

[Will Once]

Which is missing the entire point of the post you responded to.

What we have here, my friend, is a question of degree.

Most people will agree that there is an issue with micro-transactions in GT7. The game includes some very expensive cars which you can only get through unrealistically long grinding or MTX. Bad game. Naughty game. Boo, hiss.

The $64,000 question is how much of a problem this is. Is it a minor irritant or does it totally ruin the game? Or something in-between.

We can all have opinions about this. I'm in the "minor irritant" camp, but you are wherever you are. It's a free world.

Where I take issue is when people start making absolute statements that don't recognise that we all have different opinions. The entire game is based around MTX? Come on. Some parts of the game are influenced by MTX, but surely not all.

Did I miss the entire point of the earlier post ... or is that another absolute statement?

As I said, it's a question of degree.