A Sports Car For a First Car?

[Brend]

I'm pretty sure Lewis Hamilton doesn't drive his Formula 1 car to Nicole's house every time they break up...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but using the same car for racing AND casual driving? That just seems to spell disaster.

 

[Famine]

I owned a Honda. An Accord Type-R - a halo car of sorts. It wasn't bullet proof - nor even pretty much.

I reiterate, never race at the weekend the car you need to get to school or work on Monday morning. Ever. It's not for reasons of purpose duality - plenty of stuff can be driven hard on a track and comfortably on the road - but, as it says on every entry ticket to every motorsports venue on the planet, "Motorsports is dangerous". Do you know how well "I'm sorry I couldn't get in. I smashed my car up* racing at the weekend." works as an excuse? I'll fill you in - it doesn't.


*Or dropped a rod or blew the diff or any number of other things that are more likely to happen to a car being caned to within an inch of its life

 

[LeadFootLiam]

I owned a Honda. An Accord Type-R - a halo car of sorts. It wasn't bullet proof - nor even pretty much.

I reiterate, never race at the weekend the car you need to get to school or work on Monday morning. Ever.

Most of my hooning would be at Autox, which is very mild compared to a track day.

 

[McLaren]

I'm not going to college, starting a detailing business with a friend, we already have some wealthy clients, and have my foot in the door with a rapidly growing construction company. So none of what you said applies to me.

I'll give you a life lesson here. Never be completely sure of anything regarding work/money until it actually happens.

Yes of course. I will mod it so I can do well on the track and Autox, but making sure I can still use it as a daily driver. This is a Honda remember, they are pretty much bullet proof.

Bullet proof or not, tracking creates more wear & tear, as well as less time between service intervals. You ultimately just put your car at risk of something major needing to be fixed faster than regular use.

Your first car should never be a track car anyway.

 

[Famine]

Most of my hooning would be at Autox

Expect to be thrown out of an organised motorsports event if you hoon it.

which is very mild compared to a track day.

Expect to be thrown out of a track day if you hoon it.

Since we've now reached the point of usual teenage won't-be-told-ness - because the people you ask for advice in the first place turn out to know nothing - I'll just say again, NEVER race at a weekend the car you need to get you to school or work on Monday morning and hope that no-one has to remind you of this should you ignore it.

 

[LeadFootLiam]

I am already working with the construction company as well, should have already said that. Autox is much more popular and cheaper over here, so I will do mainly that, and autox is not very hard the car either.

Expect to be thrown out of an organised motorsports event if you hoon it.Expect to be thrown out of a track day if you hoon it.

Since we've now reached the point of usual teenage won't-be-told-ness - because the people you ask for advice in the first place turn out to know nothing - I'll just say again, NEVER race at a weekend the car you need to get you to school or work on Monday morning and hope that no-one has to remind you of this should you ignore it.

Its not like I am Autoxing every weekend, our autocross events are once a month, and our trackdays are 3 times a year.

 

[Joey D]

Don't hoon at an autox or a track day. At a autox, hooning makes it extremely unsafe for the corner workers and other people will think you're a asshat. At a track day, hooning will make it unsafe for other cars on the track and the other people will want to kick your ass since their cars will probably be several times more valuable than yours.

Seriously, learn to drive on the road before trying to do any form of competitive driving.

Also all racing is hard on a car, if you think it's not than you're pretty delusional.

 

[Famine]

Its not like I am Autoxing every weekend, our autocross events are once a month, and our trackdays are 3 times a year.

Oh well, that's okay then. You'll NEVER stack it or suffer a mechanical failure. EVER. It takes at least 16 raggings a year for that to happen - 15 is perfectly safe.

 

[McLaren]

I am already working with the construction company as well, should have already said that. Autox is much more popular and cheaper over here, so I will do mainly that, and autox is not very hard the car either.

You severely underestimate auto-x, then. Anything that requires you to push the car harder than usual creates more wear.

 

[Tornado]

Clearly, if autocrossing is the main aspect of how good a car is for a first car, he needs an Impreza wagon.



With a slushbox.

 

[LeadFootLiam]

You severely underestimate auto-x, then. Anything that requires you to push the car harder than usual creates more wear.

Autox, a run lasts around a minute, you have any where from 3-5 runs, so that is approximately 3-5 minutes of performance driving, once a month. Not as much wear on the car as you think.

Don't hoon at an autox or a track day. At a autox, hooning makes it extremely unsafe for the corner workers and other people will think you're a asshat. At a track day, hooning will make it unsafe for other cars on the track and the other people will want to kick your ass since their cars will probably be several times more valuable than yours.

Seriously, learn to drive on the road before trying to do any form of competitive driving.

Also all racing is hard on a car, if you think it's not than you're pretty delusional.

Perhaps I think hooning is different from what it really is...

I already know how to drive on the road, and have already attended an Autocross school, and an event(s). All racing is hard on a car yes, but it really depends what kind of racing you are doing and how much of it you are doing.

 

[Joey D]

You really come across as naive if you think you know how to drive on the road and that AutoX'ing is going to be hard on your car.

 

[McLaren]

Autox, a run lasts around a minute, you have any where from 3-5 runs, so that is approximately 3-5 minutes of performance driving, once a month. Not as much wear on the car as you think.

I'm well aware of the time frame. You're ignoring what it is though; performance driving with the intent of pushing the car as fast as possible. A part doesn't have to fail immediately after 1 run, the wear builds up over time & performance driving adds to it quicker. I would take Joey's advice first on actually spending time learning to drive the specific car first before considering autocross with it.

 

[Harry6784]

Nope.I'd wonder why you were giving me information I already knew.Quite so.

Now let's look at the statistics. Novice drivers are three times more likely to have a crash than drivers with 3 or more years experience. Drivers aged 17-21 are twice as likely as any other age group for which there are a statistically significant number of drivers to have a crash (85 and over gets close, but there's not so many of them) - more for males - and three times more likely to die in a crash. I recall they're five times as likely to be involved in a fatal accident, either as drivers or passengers and not necessarily as the victim - but I can't find the source for that number right now so feel free to disregard. Your personal testimony gets entered into the statistics as one novice teenage driver, but there's several million of them (in the UK; tens of millions, no doubt, in the USA) who are putting themselves in hedges, hospitals and morgues at a rate two to three times higher than the average motorist - you're not statistically significant.*

It's not a stereotype - they are the most dangerous group of drivers** on the road. That doesn't mean LFL here will top himself between now and 2017, but he's a member of the group most likely to do so.

Which is exactly why only he can judge whether he is responsible enough to drive a sport oriented car or not. Statistics are nothing more than probability charts. Not every individual falls cleanly into one category or another. Yes young people are more likely to get in a crash but to treat every single one as a poor motorist is very unfair. And it's not just my personal testimony, nearly all my friends drive sporty cars (350Zs, S2000s, Camaros, Corvettes) and most of them have a clean slate when it comes to their driving record.

The question was "is a 300hp Subaru Impreza a good car to give a teenage novice driver?". The answer is not unless you actively wish it to be their last car, no.

Why are we acting as if a a measly 2g WRX is as dangerous to drive as Roger Rodas in a Carerra GT? Even a V6 Accord has a lot more power than one of these. What I suggest is for Liam to test drive these cars. Get in a WRX, CRX or whatever he wants to buy and take it for a spin. If he feels as though he can handle it, nothing should stop him from buying one. But if he feels intimidated by the car (you will know the feeling if you do) he is not ready yet and should stick with his mom's Sienna.

 

[Tornado]

Autox, a run lasts around a minute, you have any where from 3-5 runs, so that is approximately 3-5 minutes of performance driving, once a month. Not as much wear on the car as you think.

There's a good reason that people who autocross with any sort of regularity use separate cars dedicated (or at least built up) for it.

 

[McLaren]

Which is exactly why only he can judge whether he is responsible enough to drive a sport oriented car or not. Statistics are nothing more than probability charts. Not every individual falls cleanly into one category or another. Yes young people are more likely to get in a crash but to treat every single one as a poor motorist is very unfair. And it's not just my personal testimony, nearly all my friends drive sporty cars (350Zs, S2000s, Camaros, Corvettes) and most of them have a clean slate when it comes to their driving record.

The statistics though, are based upon actual evidence. Even if you & your friends are safe drivers with performance cars, you're still 1 in what it is likely every 20-30 males. I sympathize with you since I had a sporty car as my first, but judging by Liam's posts, it's hard to believe he will responsible with it if he feels like 240Hp isn't anything special or is ready to auto-x already.

Why are we acting as if a a measly 2g WRX is as dangerous to drive as Roger Rodas in a Carerra GT? Even a V6 Accord has a lot more power than one of these. What I suggest is for Liam to test drive these cars. Get in a WRX, CRX or whatever he wants to buy and take it for a spin. If he feels as though he can handle it, nothing should stop him from buying one. But if he feels intimidated by the car (you will know the feeling if you do) he is not ready yet and should stick with his mom's Sienna.

No male under 21 has let a car intimate them unless he can't even get it moving, i.e. a tricky manual.

Test driving a car will not likely help. You don't test drive a car to test your or its limits.

 

[Famine]

If your 3-5 minutes of performance driving a month is 18-30 runs up a drag strip, you'll see plenty of parts failing.

Which is exactly why only he can judge whether he is responsible enough to drive a sport oriented car or not.

He's not a legal adult - which is exactly why he shouldn't make that decision on his own.

Statistics are nothing more than probability charts.

Yes young people are more likely to get in a crash

Twice as likely. Three times as likely to die. Five times as likely to be involved in a fatal accident. That's what probability means.

Yes young people are more likely to get in a crash but to treat every single one as a poor motorist is very unfair.

Good job no-one's doing that then.

And it's not just my personal testimony, nearly all my friends drive sporty cars (350Zs, S2000s, Camaros, Corvettes) and most of them have a clean slate when it comes to their driving record.

Interesting how when it's just you it's unblemished, but when you include other people your age it drops to "most". Interesting because that's exactly what the statistics say will happen.

Why are we acting as if a a measly 2g WRX is as dangerous to drive as Roger Rodas in a Carerra GT?

Because it is - in the hands of a novice, teenage, male driver.

Or at least the unbiased, objective statistics say that.

 

[LeadFootLiam]

You really come across as naive if you think you know how to drive on the road and that AutoX'ing is going to be hard on your car.

Yes because after two years of having my license, I am still learning the fundamentals of driving, and still learning the art of the 9 and 3 position.

There's a good reason that people who autocross with any sort of regularity use separate cars dedicated (or at least built up) for it.

Yes I know that...those are for people who go all in, for me I would go as much as I can, which would be once every couple of months. If I do find all the time to go every month, I would do that "preventative maintenance" thing.

I'm well aware of the time frame. You're ignoring what it is though; performance driving with the intent of pushing the car as fast as possible. A part doesn't have to fail immediately after 1 run, the wear builds up over time & performance driving adds to it quicker. I would take Joey's advice first on actually spending time learning to drive the specific car first before considering autocross with it.

All the Autox events I have been to, nothing on a car has broken. So thats why I am a little skeptical.

@Harry6784 I have driven my friends WRX, I floored it as well. Was not intimidated at all, didn't feel out of control or unsafe. If I could afford it I would buy one, but creating this thread has made me re think a little bit, and get something cheaper.

@Famine I am 18. I don't have to be a legal adult to make decisions for myself, regarding a car.

 

[Joey D]

Yes because after two years of having my license, I am still learning the fundamentals of driving, and still learning the art of the 9 and 3 position.

You're right, you are still learning the fundamentals of driving. If takes years to learn how to be a good driver, I'm not sure what the driving age is in Canada, but being 18 you probably haven't been driving on your own more than 2 years.

 

[Tornado]

Yes because after two years of having my license, I am still learning the fundamentals of driving, and still learning the art of the 9 and 3 position.

This is supposed to be sarcastic, but it is in fact a completely accurate statement.

 

[LeadFootLiam]

IMO it takes years of good driving habits to be a good driver. Legal driving age here is 16.

 

[Azuremen]

All the Autox events I have been to, nothing on a car has broken. So thats why I am a little skeptical.

And I've seen a car roll, axles snap, a VW light on fire, a STI have a diff explode, countless engines and transmissions go, and countless other failures over the years.

Yeah, you've been to a few events but that doesn't mean a thing.

I have driven my friends WRX, I floored it as well. Was not intimidated at all, didn't feel out of control or unsafe. If I could afford it I would buy one, but creating this thread has made me re think a little bit, and get something cheaper.

Congrats, you've barely driven a sporty car but now you're qualified

I am 18. I don't have to be a legal adult to make decisions for myself, regarding a car.

Uh, actually you do. But I think in Canada, 18 qualifies as being an adult.

IMO it takes years of good driving habits to be a good driver. Legal driving age here is 16.

So what you're saying is, by your own opinion, you don't have decent driving skills or experience?

 

[SlipZtrEm]

You're right, you are still learning the fundamentals of driving. If takes years to learn how to be a good driver, I'm not sure what the driving age is in Canada, but being 18 you probably haven't been driving on your own more than 2 years.

At the max, he's been driving on his own* since 8 months past his 16th birthday. Er, maybe 9 months, I'm not sure; I do know that when I was able to take my beginners (G1), taking a driving class meant I qualified for early testing for my G2 (the normal wait time is a year). After a year with your G2, you can take your full G test (highway driving), and if you don't take the G within five years of receiving your G2, you start back at square one. So yeah, he's had less than two years. Anybody else having getting a strong feeling of deja vu?

* - Legally, of course. G1 requires you have a fully licensed driver with you at all times, and both it and the G2 bar the driver from driving at very late hours, and have a zero-tolerance policy on blood-alcohol levels (obviously). Of course, that's here in Ontario, no idea how similar it is in Vancouver.

 

[LeadFootLiam]

And I've seen a car roll, axles snap, a VW light on fire, a STI have a diff explode, countless engines and transmissions go, and countless other failures over the years.

Yeah, you've been to a few events but that doesn't mean a thing.

You have been to a lot more events than me then. Whats your Autocross club called?

Congrats, you've barely driven a sporty car but now you're qualified

Pretty much anyone can be qualified to drive a 220HP WRX, I don't know why you think that car is a death trap, maybe because you have driven 1.8 Corollas and Tercels.

Uh, actually you do. But I think in Canada, 18 qualifies as being an adult.

That is complete BS, you can choose any car under 18 as long as you have a license.

So what you're saying is, by your own opinion, you don't have decent driving skills or experience?

No. -_-

At the max, he's been driving on his own* since 8 months past his 16th birthday. Er, maybe 9 months, I'm not sure; I do know that when I was able to take my beginners (G1), taking a driving class meant I qualified for early testing for my G2 (the normal wait time is a year). After a year with your G2, you can take your full G test (highway driving), and if you don't take the G within five years of receiving your G2, you start back at square one. So yeah, he's had less than two years. Anybody else having getting a strong feeling of deja vu?

* - Legally, of course. G1 requires you have a fully licensed driver with you at all times, and both it and the G2 bar the driver from driving at very late hours, and have a zero-tolerance policy on blood-alcohol levels (obviously). Of course, that's here in Ontario, no idea how similar it is in Vancouver.

I have been driving for 2 years, this year I my full license with no passenger restrictions.

Over here you sit a test to get your L or Learners. You have that for a year, you can only drive if you have a family member over 25 with a full license, you can take one friend as well.

After a year you can take a road test to get your N or Novice. You have that for two years. You can only have 1 passenger, does not matter what age, does not have to have a license. Family member don't apply, so you could have 1 friend and 2 family members in the car, they dont have to have a license.

After 2 years you take another road test to get your Class 5, or full license, where there are no restrictions.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Anybody else having getting a strong feeling of deja vu?

Pretty much anyone can be qualified to drive a 220HP WRX, I don't know why you think that car is a death trap, maybe because you have driven 1.8 Corollas and Tercels.

Uncanny.

 

[Azuremen]

You have been to a lot more events than me then. Whats your Autocross club called?

I haven't been active for years, but several clubs in the Washington area.

Pretty much anyone can be qualified to drive a 220HP WRX, I don't know why you think that car is a death trap, maybe because you have driven 1.8 Corollas and Tercels.

The car isn't a death trap. It is, very likely, an accident waiting to happen in your case.

You also seem to have forgot I daily drive a car with more power and fewer drive wheels (so even more gets to the ground) in all weather conditions. I also have more experience driving WRX's than you, in more conditions.

What else have you driven? You seem so informed.

That is complete BS, you can choose any car under 18 as long as you have a license.

Umm, so who owns it, signs the paperwork for it, and so on?

No. -_-

You haven't even had a full license for a year from what I'm reading. You just said a few years of driving experience to have good habits, let alone actually understanding driving. Just accept you have almost no idea on how to drive. Especially when compared to the many people giving you advice.

 

[Crash]

Every car oversteers under the right (not right for people whom don't have the skills to control a car properly) conditions. It's a bit harder with a WRX because of the permantent 4WD system, which divides the forces on the wheels to 4 wheels instead of 2 wheels. This makes the tires less prone to lose grip, which makes it a bit more difficult to oversteer. But I can asure you that an inexperienced driver will oversteer a WRX when he gets cocky and his ego wants to show off what he can, to his friends. And that's what I was trying to say in my forst post. It's a dangerous car for inexperienced drivers who with the wrong attitude.

Granted, you have to go much faster with a permanent 50/50 4WD to oversteer than a less grippy FWD/RWD but don't forget the ego of some younger drivers showing off what they think they can do and they do it everywhere except where it's safe.

I just want to clarify:

Four wheel drive only distributes acceleration forces due to engine output to four wheels. The tire's static friction with any given patch of road does not change whether the car is two wheel drive or four wheel drive, meaning that oversteering due to anything other than excessive engine power does not change whether the car is two or four wheel drive.

OP, it boils down to how responsible you are. No one knows you better than you. If you know you are going to speed everywhere and drive wreckless, get a Civic until you mature. But if you know you have the discipline to drive 'slowly' even though you have a relatively fast car, go ahead.

Sure, it does boil down to how mature and responsible he is, but we're trying to warn him about why he's likely to get into trouble with a WRX or a sporty car. Given his track record on here, I think the advice others have given is well justified. If he chooses to ignore everything we've said, he's free to do so.

And if he is responsible with it or lucky enough to not be in an accident, good for him. On the corollary, if he wraps his car around a pole, we then get to say we told you so.

I am already working with the construction company as well, should have already said that. Autox is much more popular and cheaper over here, so I will do mainly that, and autox is not very hard the car either.

Uhh, yes it is. Autocross is hard on your car. If it's not hard on your car, then you're autocrossing wrong.

Which is exactly why only he can judge whether he is responsible enough to drive a sport oriented car or not. Statistics are nothing more than probability charts. Not every individual falls cleanly into one category or another. Yes young people are more likely to get in a crash but to treat every single one as a poor motorist is very unfair. And it's not just my personal testimony, nearly all my friends drive sporty cars (350Zs, S2000s, Camaros, Corvettes) and most of them have a clean slate when it comes to their driving record.

Then what's the point of him even asking whether a car is a good first car? Everything single thing that can be said is distilled from a statistic. Will a car break? Maybe, maybe not. Everything is nothing more than a probability chart with a specific level of confidence, and hey, maybe he'll be the exception to the rule for everything (Possible? Sure. Probable? No.).

All the Autox events I have been to, nothing on a car has broken. So thats why I am a little skeptical.

Things break all the time in autocrossing. You are trying to push the car to its limits, and sometimes the limits are exceeded and things break. Also, just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist or doesn't happen.

@Famine I am 18. I don't have to be a legal adult to make decisions for myself, regarding a car.

Yes, you do have to be a legal adult.

Pretty much anyone can be qualified to drive a 220HP WRX, I don't know why you think that car is a death trap, maybe because you have driven 1.8 Corollas and Tercels.

Nah, it's because he's been 18 before, and has known plenty of 18 year olds who overcooks their cars with less power thinking they are the next Senna.

That is complete BS, you can choose any car under 18 as long as you have a license.

I wasn't aware that, in Canada, you are legally allowed to own a car and sign contracts related to that car when you're not a legal adult?

 

[xNEVER-ONEx]

Dude, I hope you have a nice nest of savings or a good job because your insurance will be killer given the fact your very young, are asking to drive a rather fast car and live in ICBC jurisdiction.

 

[LeadFootLiam]

Umm, so who owns it, signs the paperwork for it, and so on?

Are you talking about financing or leasing a car?

You haven't even had a full license for a year from what I'm reading. You just said a few years of driving experience to have good habits, let alone actually understanding driving.

Go to your optometrist, I said: "IMO it takes years of good driving habits to be a good driver". Never did I say a "few" years.

Just accept you have almost no idea on how to drive. Especially when compared to the many people giving you advice.

So your saying I have no idea on how to drive based on what other people are telling me? Thought you were better than that.

 

[Harry6784]

@LeadFootLiam I would stop trying to convince people in this thread that you are a qualified driver, it's a battle you're never going to win. As soon as someone sees the word '18' and 'sports car' in the same sentence they automatically visualize ambulances, beer bottles, shattered glass and body bags. Good luck trying to convince them otherwise. It may come as a shock to some people but it is possible to be young AND mature. I was going through the exact same process you're going through when I got my car. Everyone was telling me to get a 'traditional' car; civic, corolla, 4runner...etc. I made my choice and never once regretted it 👍