Affirmative Action

[Anderton Prime]

I think it should be in place for exactly as long as slavery was in place in the U.S.

 

[Danoff]

I think it should be in place for exactly as long as slavery was in place in the U.S.

Because two wrongs make a right? Or because Asians had a lot to do with slavery? Or because Affirmative action actually helps someone?

 

[Famine]

Giving someone a job, regardless of their qualifications, because of their skin colour is exactly the same as not giving someone a job, regardless of their qualifications, because of their skin colour.

Albism is still racism.

 

[Anderton Prime]

Giving someone a job, regardless of their qualifications, because of their skin colour is exactly the same as not giving someone a job, regardless of their qualifications, because of their skin colour.

Albism is still racism.

Not in a country where the latter situation was a reality for a long, long, LONG time. In the US, two wrongs don't make a right, but they make an already wrong situation less wrong.

 

[Danoff]

but they make an already wrong situation less wrong.

How? Who benefits from affirmative action? and (not that I think you can answer the first question) why is it just?

 

[Sage]

[...] two wrongs don't make a right, but they make an already wrong situation less wrong.

No they don't – they make it worse. Why should it be harder for me to get into college because some minority groups are forcing the colleges to take in under-qualified minority kids? I didn't have anything to do with slavery.

 

[Arwin]

Affirmative Action was not a bad thing. It will and should be something ending and discussing its end is something that needs to be on-going. I am however a bit disappointed by how badly the reason for it is understood - though it comforts me that at least some people learn this in school. 👍

There are still hardly any countries where men and women have equal opportunities and pay. In the U.S., there are still big differences. Danoff, you like asking questions. Answer one: who you find in prison in the U.S. and why? What's the demographic of poverty and why? Why do women still not make the salary of a man? You cannot answer these questions and tell me there is no reason for affirmative action.

There comes a point where it does more bad than good, and perhaps this point has come. But it has to be understood that the cycle of poverty can be broken a lot faster than the two generations mentioned here (which isn't even a guarantee). However, this goes for the whole populace, and it would be better now to focus on good education for the poor rather than for a certain demographic.

 

[Danoff]

Danoff, you like asking questions. Answer one:

Of course I was asking about social issues not statistics – which anyone can look up.

who you find in prison in the U.S. and why?

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cpus9802.pdf

1998
Male: 89.2 %
Female: 10.8
White, non-Hispanic: 41.3 %
Black, non-Hispanic: 41.2
Hispanic: 15.5
Other/c: 2.0


Looks like mostly you find white males. Just behind them you find black males. That’s a disproportionate number of black people in prison. The reason why is largely due to african american and hispanic cultural values (if not, why are asians so low on the list?). What’s your point?

What's the demographic of poverty and why?

http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/p60-226.pdf

This is the percentage of each race type that is in poverty on average between ’01 and ‘03.

PERCENTAGE
All races . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12.1
White alone or in combination. . . . . . . . . . 10.2
White alone5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10.2
White alone, not Hispanic . . . . . . . . . . . 8.0
Black alone or in combination . . . . . . . . . . 23.6
Black alone6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 23.7
American Indian and Alaska Native
alone or in combination . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20.0
American Indian and Alaska Native
alone7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 23.2
Asian alone or in combination . . . . . . . . . . 10.7
Asian alone8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10.7
Asian, Native Hawaiian and Other
Pacific Islander, alone or in
combination . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10.8
Asian and/or Native Hawaiian and
Other Pacific Islander9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10.8
Hispanic origin (of any race) . . . . . . . . . . . 21.9


Looks like there are a disproportionate number of black people who are poor. The reason why is largely due to african american and hispanic cultural values. What’s your point?

Why do women still not make the salary of a man?

See picture for statistics.

Looks like women don’t make as much as men, and you want to know why. Part of the reason is that much of the working class started work when sexism was still rampant, and so there aren’t as many old women working today –the ones who make the most in the workforce are generally the ones with the most experience.

You’ll notice in the picture that the gap is closing, but I’ll never expect it to be the same. The reason for this is quite simple, women stop working to have kids – or they take a leave of absence and therefore make less later on than a man who didn’t.

You cannot answer these questions and tell me there is no reason for affirmative action.

Not only is there no reason for affirmative action, there are many reasons against it.

Here are a few:

- It's racist
- It puts people in positions they didn't earn
----- a) which is bad for the economy
----- b) which erodes our cultural base by rewarding failure
----- c) which isn't just
- It promotes racism
---- a) by generating resentment toward those who got what they didn't earn.
---- b) by casting the stigma on successful minorities that they didn't earn what they have.
---- c) by continuing to promote poor values in minority families by rewarding failure - thereby propagating stereotypes


I answered your questions, now you answer mine.

 

[Famine]

Not only is there no reason for affirmative action, there are many reasons against it.

Here are a few:

- It's racist
- It puts people in positions they didn't earn
----- a) which is bad for the economy
----- b) which erodes our cultural base by rewarding failure
----- c) which isn't just
- It promotes racism
---- a) by generating resentment toward those who got what they didn't earn.
---- b) by casting the stigma on successful minorities that they didn't earn what they have.
---- c) by continuing to promote poor values in minority families by rewarding failure - thereby propagating stereotypes

Nail. Head.


As I've said a few times, by preserving differences between races/genders the only thing you succeed in doing is preserving differences between races/genders. And, "Just because someone is from an ethnic minority doesn't mean they can't be a nasty, small-minded little jerk" (Terry Pratchett).

 

[Arwin]

"The reason why is largely due to african american and hispanic cultural values"

Dangerous ground. Do you know the research that this comes from? It is partly largely based on research done in the UK investigating the succes of different 'cultural' backgrounds in schools. Asian and Indian children scored high there, and yes, children from African backgrounds scored lower. But do you know who scored lowest? Your average local white male. Who scored best? Asian girls.

What you are really saying is that the Hispanic and Afro-American people lack the cultural values to rise above their situation. That in itself is rather an argument for than against affirmative action. In this case, you and Famine have been trying to make the half of my point I already agreed on. If you read my post again, you will see that I did not argue that affirmative action was the best solution at any given time, and it is rightful to be questioned.

What I'm asking for here (again) is an understanding of the underlying problem. What I see happening is that the affirmative action will be abolished, and that people believe this is ok because the underlying problem has vanished. That in itself would be a gross error, seriously augmented by misplaced cultural discrimination.

I know what the downsides of affirmative action are. But I know it was necessary nevertheless, at least for a while, and that when it is gone, it will need to be replaced with a more general way of dealing with large scale demographic poverty and inequality.

 

[Famine]

As long as "affirmative action" remains in place, the "underlying problem" will persist - racism.

By perpetuating the belief that one ethnic group deserves to have bias in its favour or against it and award it positions not based on proven ability or skills, but rather on the ethnic grouping alone, racism is preserved. The only way to remove the "underlying problem" is to remove all things that keep it going. Affirmative action is racism. By getting rid of it you are not indicating that racism is no longer a problem, but admitting that it still IS a problem and removing this racist policy which preserves racism as a problem.

 

[wheellift]

Yes danoff...good job..I could'nt pull out those stats out of my a$$ if I had to....

 

[Arwin]

As long as "affirmative action" remains in place, the "underlying problem" will persist - racism.

By perpetuating the belief that one ethnic group deserves to have bias in its favour or against it and award it positions not based on proven ability or skills, but rather on the ethnic grouping alone, racism is preserved. The only way to remove the "underlying problem" is to remove all things that keep it going. Affirmative action is racism. By getting rid of it you are not indicating that racism is no longer a problem, but admitting that it still IS a problem and removing this racist policy which preserves racism as a problem.

Yes, restate your point without contributing anything new or useful. 👍 The underlying problem is poverty, that was partly held place through racism. Positive Discrimination in the form of Affirmative Action was put into place to balance the scales a little quicker. THEN we arrive at what you write above, and what has been written in this thread by many before, including me.

Where you totally lose me is when you suggest that abolishing affirmative action is admitting racism is still a problem. Unless you mean to say that affirmative action is the sole cause for racism today.

Rather than repeating the same arguments against affirmative action, I'd be more impressed to see people discuss alternate solutions to problems that are still there today, as Danoff has shown.

 

[Ghost C]

Yes, restate your point without contributing anything new or useful. 👍

Pot. Kettle. Black.

The underlying problem is poverty, that was partly held place through racism.

Or is it possible that one type of person just isn't willing to make something of themselves? Sure, they may have needed help a half century ago, but now it's due to laziness, and the whole "my great great great great great great great grandparents were slaves, this country owes me" attitude.

Rather than repeating the same arguments against affirmative action, I'd be more impressed to see people discuss alternate solutions to problems that are still there today, as Danoff has shown.

The problem today is sheer laziness. Anyone can go out and get a six figure income in the US without a problem, the government will pay people living in poverty to go to college - It's called a Pell Grant, and there are no restrictions on what race of people gets them.

 

[Arwin]

Anyone can go out and get a six figure income in the US without a problem

But you yourself don't care to, or what? The only problem here, Ghost C., is that the people you offend in your post above don't have access to internet. Never learnt how to type. Some may hardly even be able to read.

Note that I'm not even typing this reply for your benefit, as I gave up on you long ago. Everytime I answer one of your posts, I am hoping to prevent one gullable reader from buying into your 'I call that bs', or waking up the bud of one critical mind.

Cultural values. Laziness. Man, grow up and learn to see the world in all its complexity.

 

[Ten]

"Affirnative Action"

lol. That's cute. ^^

As far as Famine repeating himself, I don't blame him. There really isn't anything else to say. He's just saying it again, - in simpler terms - for those of us who can't understand already simple fact.

My stance: Take everything Famine said, copy/paste it seven times over, and slip it into one of Bush's public adresses. He won't even notice.

I'm gay. Suddenly I feel the "man" is holding me down, and I'm going to establish myself as a minority. Can I have a job I'm underqualified for?

Immigrants come here for all sorts of reasons - the biggest being the misconception that they're destined for a better life here. Granted, this is true in a way, america needs to turn off the big neon Vacancy sign. I'm not racist, and I'm not trying to say that I'm unhappy with immigration or open borders. What I'm sying is that it's getting out of hand, and we need to look at the (cold and harsh as it is) truth that we just can't keep inviting people over for a global slumber party. I mean come one, we're giving people jobs because they aren't american, or aren't white, or blah blah whatever. It's ludicrous.

As for a solution, call me later. It's too early to think.

 

[Ghost C]

But you yourself don't care to, or what?

Sure don't. Money isn't my main goal in life.

The only problem here, Ghost C., is that the people you offend in your post above don't have access to internet. Never learnt how to type. Some may hardly even be able to read.

Anyone I offended is a lazy bum. Period. I'm not racist, and I'm not talking about the minorities who work hard to try and make a living (Like Asians who immigrate here. I've never seen an Asian immigrant that didn't work hard as hell), I'm talking about the minorities who are content with not having a job, collecting a welfare check, and generally being worthless to society as a whole.

Note that I'm not even typing this reply for your benefit, as I gave up on you long ago. Everytime I answer one of your posts, I am hoping to prevent one gullable reader from buying into your 'I call that bs', or waking up the bud of one critical mind.

You gave up on me? Oh noes, the almighty Arwin gave up on me. And if anyone buys into what I say, they're smart. I bring the truth, I don't twist things like you do.

Cultural values. Laziness. Man, grow up and learn to see the world in all its complexity.

If someone's cultural values include getting a job they're not qualified for simply because they're a minority and not actually going out, getting an education, and EARNING their pay, then they have some pretty ****ed up values.

 

[Arwin]

Sure don't. Money isn't my main goal in life.

...

Anyone I offended is a lazy bum. Period. I'm not racist, and I'm not talking about the minorities who work hard to try and make a living (Like Asians who immigrate here. I've never seen an Asian immigrant that didn't work hard as hell)

So by your definition, all Asians in the U.S. will end up making 6 figure salaries.

if anyone buys into what I say, they're smart. I bring the truth, I don't twist things like you do.

Even if you added 'on purpose' I wouldn't be sure I'd buy that one. I also wonder what your definition of twisting is. Oh wait, you mean this:

If someone's cultural values include getting a job they're not qualified for simply because they're a minority and not actually going out, getting an education, and EARNING their pay, then they have some pretty ****ed up values.

Under the law as written in Executive Orders and interpreted by the courts, anyone benefitting from affirmative action must have relevant and valid job or educational qualifications. (From: http://www.now.org/nnt/08-95/affirmhs.html )

(I know, I'm sorry, I always twist things.)

 

[Ghost C]

snip

Yay, an Arwin reply in a debate thread. Full of him half-reading what I said, misinterpreting what he actually read of the post, hypothetical situations, and gibberish about how I'm wrong without bothering to provide support to his argument, and the token link to a site that has almost nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

I don't know why I even bother getting into it with you, you're one of those guys that thinks while they're not always right, they are never, ever, EVER wrong. I'd tell you why your whole post was all sideways and back to front, but it's not worth it, it'd just end up with you posting again with the same crap you always post.

I honestly think you have a few selections of text saved, and you just paste them into the post, and fill in the appropriate words for the argument, then hit "Submit Reply"

 

[Ten]

*kicks back and realizes he's out of popcorn* Damn! And the main event's just starting!

 

[Arwin]

Cool, accusations!

Yay, an Arwin reply in a debate thread. Full of him half-reading what I said

I would take a step back and look around - I doubt that you'll find many people here, even if they disagree with me on many issues, that would accuse me of half-reading. In this case, I think it's more likely you half-wrote what you thought?

, misinterpreting what he actually read of the post

Of course - not interpreting it the way you do is misinterpreting, right? So that's bound to happen a lot.

hypothetical situations

You mean like the little pieces of fiction you come up with to back up your arguments? You're like the Devil accusing a jaywalker crossing the road legally.

and gibberish about how I'm wrong without bothering to provide support to his argument

Without bothering to provide support? That's rich, coming from you to me. I typically provide support, you typically dismiss it based on what you feel or believe, what you personally experienced, or come up with some nice little story - but supporting anything with decently researched facts, or even using google, is just too much effort. Just look here:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=45978&page=2&pp=20&highlight=gun+control

and the token link to a site that has almost nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

So, you mean like when I post a link to a page on affirmative action in a thread on affirmative action? Odd. Oh wait, my mistake, the page is on affirNative action, so I guess you must be right then.

I don't know why I even bother getting into it with you, you're one of those guys that thinks while they're not always right, they are never, ever, EVER wrong.

On the contrary, I am one of the few people left in this world who is always ready to admit he is wrong.

I'd tell you why your whole post was all sideways and back to front, but it's not worth it, it'd just end up with you posting again with the same crap you always post.

Do you have any idea how lame you now look? "Mummy, this man is mean to me! He doesn't let me win my argument, boo-hoo-hoo!" Maybe you should try to remember something I sometimes tell myself: if you can't win an argument, you might actually be wrong.

(I sometimes try to go an extra mile. Since I'm fairly decent at arguing a point, I am weary of my own arguments and try to prove them wrong myself in case my debating partner presents his case very badly, but turns out to be right nevertheless. It happens, and you can sleep comfortably knowing that if it ever happens to you, I'll be happy to let you know. )

I honestly think you have a few selections of text saved, and you just paste them into the post, and fill in the appropriate words for the argument, then hit "Submit Reply"

I remember stuff, I can use Google, I type with 10 fingers, and I've made a serious attempt to master the English language (it not being my first). The question is, what do you do? What are you thinking when you hit that 'Submit Reply' button?

Seriously, I am pretty sure I get as tired of you as you do of me. But considering the outright bs you have been posting up in these Opinion threads for ages now, you deserve a good public spanking and I deserve to enjoy giving it.

(TenTen-San, the Popcorn is on me today!)

 

[Danoff]

This quote from MrktMkr is taken from the "America" thread.

You think affirmative action is racist against white people!? It simply "levels the playing field" or at least that was the original intent.

Now I'm no advocate of affirmative action, but that's because I don't believe in "hand-outs". Anything I get in life, I will be working for.

If affirmative action levels the playing field, why aren't you an advocate for it? Is it perhaps because it is a racist practice?

If you look at affirmative action it says essentially this.

"This group will be treated one way because of skin color. The other group will be treated another way because of skin color."

That's racist, and in this case it's racist against white people. The bottom line is that affirmative action is racism and as such cannot help to end racism. It will not help prevent racism to remind people of race and treat it as if it were important.

 

[blargonator]

"This group will be treated one way because of skin color. The other group will be treated another way because of skin color."

That's racist, and in this case it's racist against white people. The bottom line is that affirmative action is racism and as such cannot help to end racism. It will not help prevent racism to remind people of race and treat it as if it were important.

i have a four letter word i would like to reply with...but i won't. i am going to GUESS that you are "white"?

most caucasians believe that "my people" are taking their jobs, complaining too much, and wasting everything. me being hispanic i am subject to racism and have been many times. you don't realize it but simply being white people trust you more easily. what are these "cultural habits" people keep talking about? please explain what you are saying. you just remember we (hispanics) are growing. simillar to what tyler said, we guard you while you sleep, we feed you, we fix your cars, we work on your homes, and many other things. many African Americans are stuck in bad situations that are getting worse. it is possible to overcome the trials that people face but it is harder to come up from detroit than it is to come up from suburbia. many families need as much help as possible.
Don't come up with that "it was over 50 years ago, get over it" fight because what about native americans? are you saying we should take back the money they have been allowed to earn and their small reserves? we destroyed them and we have tried to repay our mistakes. so is slavery not a bad enough reason to repent and repay the money that was earned from the lives of too many.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

This quote from MrktMkr is taken from the "America" thread.

Thank you for quoting me.

If affirmative action levels the playing field, why aren't you an advocate for it? Is it perhaps because it is a racist practice?

No, not because it's racist practice. I (Black ) don't believe in "hand-outs" from anyone. I work for what I want.

If you look at affirmative action it says essentially this.

"This group will be treated one way because of skin color. The other group will be treated another way because of skin color."

That's racist, and in this case it's racist against white people. The bottom line is that affirmative action is racism and as such cannot help to end racism. It will not help prevent racism to remind people of race and treat it as if it were important.

Is it not racist/prejudicial to walk into an interview and have someone judge you [based solely on the color of your skin] before you even open your mouth? If this form of racism continues to exist in America, then I see no real harm in Affirmative Action.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

most caucasians believe that "my people" are taking their jobs, complaining too much, and wasting everything. me being hispanic i am subject to racism and have been many times. you don't realize it but simply being white people trust you more easily. what are these "cultural habits" people keep talking about? please explain what you are saying. you just remember we (hispanics) are growing. simillar to what tyler said, we guard you while you sleep, we feed you, we fix your cars, we work on your homes, and many other things. many African Americans are stuck in bad situations that are getting worse. it is possible to overcome the trials that people face but it is harder to come up from detroit than it is to come up from suburbia. many families need as much help as possible.
Don't come up with that "it was over 50 years ago, get over it" fight because what about native americans? are you saying we should take back the money they have been allowed to earn and their small reserves? we destroyed them and we have tried to repay our mistakes. so is slavery not a bad enough reason to repent and repay the money that was earned from the lives of too many.

Well said!

To danoff: PLEASE rephrase this sentence. I find it highly offensive.

The reason why is largely due to african american and hispanic cultural values

 

[Danoff]

To danoff: PLEASE rephrase this sentence. I find it highly offensive.

HA! No way. Be offended if you wish.

... more to come later.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

HA! No way. Be offended if you wish.

... more to come later.

This should be interesting.

 

[Joey D]

I really don't agree with affirmative action, there really isn't a need for it. Sure back right after desegergation I could see a need for it but now everything has pretty much equaled out. I don't think blacks (they aren't African Americans, since they weren't born in Africa and came to America. Blacks are American as you and me.) are treated unfairly. Many would think so for some reason.

What affrirmative action says to me is "Us minorities are to stupid to get something based on our knowledge so we need to play the race card."

People should be judge sololy on what they know, not by there colour. Call me racist if you think I am, I don't think I am though.

 

[MrktMkr1986]

I really don't agree with affirmative action, there really isn't a need for it. Sure back right after desegergation I could see a need for it but now everything has pretty much equaled out. I don't think blacks (they aren't African Americans, since they weren't born in Africa and came to America. Blacks are American as you and me.) are treated unfairly. Many would think so for some reason.

What affrirmative action says to me is "Us minorities are to stupid to get something based on our knowledge so we need to play the race card."

People should be judge sololy on what they know, not by there colour. Call me racist if you think I am, I don't think I am though.

You're not a racist -- as a matter of fact you bring up a valid point. 👍
Also, thank you for acknowledging the fact that:

blacks (they aren't African Americans, since they weren't born in Africa and came to America. Blacks are American as you and me.)

Especially considering the fact that my parents were born in Jamaica. 💡

I too, don't believe in affirmative action -- but that does not mean that it should be eliminated altogether. I neither need or want to play the race card, but as long as people make comments such as:

1998
Male: 89.2 %
Female: 10.8
White, non-Hispanic: 41.3 %
Black, non-Hispanic: 41.2
Hispanic: 15.5
Other/c: 2.0


Looks like mostly you find white males. Just behind them you find black males. That’s a disproportionate number of black people in prison. The reason why is largely due to african american and hispanic cultural values

you know where I stand on this issue.

 

[eaglefan48]

Affirmative Action was designed to give opportunity, not a handout. Judging from the thread about all the members ages, this is a fairly young group. I'm old enough, 46, to have seen countless people denied oppurtunity because of their race. It happens today.
I find it troubling that those of us living in the wealthiest nation in the world are so inclined towards a "I got mine, get your own!" mentality. Many people who profess to be self-made either benefited from a good starting point or were helped somewhere along the way by someone. Part of the purpose of a society is to work together for the benefit of all.