Against ME (US): Iran and Venezuela

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Associated Press
CARACAS, Venezuela - Venezuela's Hugo Chavez and
Iran's Mahmoud Ahmadinejad — fiery anti-American leaders whose moves to extend their influence have alarmed Washington — said Saturday they would help finance investment projects in other countries seeking to thwart U.S. domination.
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The two countries had previously revealed plans for a joint $2 billion fund to finance investments in Venezuela and Iran, but the leaders said Saturday the money would also be used for projects in friendly countries throughout the developing world.

"It will permit us to underpin investments ... above all in those countries whose governments are making efforts to liberate themselves from the (U.S.) imperialist yoke," Chavez said.

"This fund, my brother," the Venezuelan president said, referring affectionately to Ahmadinejad, "will become a mechanism for liberation."

"Death to U.S. imperialism!" Chavez said.

Ahmadinejad, who is starting a tour of left-leaning countries in the region, called it a "very important" decision that would help promote "joint cooperation in third countries," especially in Latin America and Africa.

It was not clear if the leaders were referring to investment in infrastructure, social and energy projects — areas that the two countries have focused on until now — or other types of financing.

Iran and Venezuela are members of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries, and Chavez said Saturday that they had agreed to back a further oil production cut in the cartel to stem a recent fall in crude prices.

"We know today there is too much crude in the market," Chavez said. "We have agreed to join our forces within
OPEC ... to support a production cut and save the price of oil."

OPEC reduced output by 1.2 million barrels a day in November, then announced an additional cut of 500,000 barrels a day, due to begin on Feb. 1. Dow Jones Newswires reported Friday that OPEC is discussing holding an emergency meeting later this month to reduce output by another 500,000 barrels a day. Venezuela and Iran have been leading price hawks within OPEC.

Ahmadinejad's visit Saturday — his second to Venezuela in less than four months — comes as he seeks to break international isolation over his country's nuclear program and possibly line up new allies in Latin America. He is also expected to visit Nicaragua and Ecuador, which both recently elected leftist governments.

Chavez and Ahmadinejad have been increasingly united by their deep-seated antagonism toward the Bush administration. Chavez has become a leading defender of Iran's nuclear ambitions, accusing the Washington of using the issue as a pretext to attack Tehran.

Ahmadinejad, meanwhile, has called Chavez "the champion of the struggle against imperialism."

U.S. officials have accused Chavez — a close ally of Cuban leader
Fidel Castro — of authoritarian tendencies, and National Intelligence Director John Negroponte said recently in an annual review of global threats that Venezuela's democracy was at risk.

The U.S. also believes Iran is seeking to use its nuclear program to develop an atomic bomb. Tehran says its program is peaceful and geared toward the production of energy.

The increasingly close relationship between Chavez and Ahmadinejad has alarmed some Chavez critics, who accuse him of pursuing an alliance that does not serve Venezuela's interests and jeopardizes its ties with the United States, the country's top oil buyer. Venezuela is among the top five suppliers of crude to the U.S. market.

In a speech earlier Saturday, Chavez called for the U.S. government to accept "the new realities of Latin America," as he brushed aside restrictions that limit presidents to two consecutive terms. He vowed to stay in office beyond 2013, when his term expires, saying he would revise the constitution to get rid of presidential term limits.

But Chavez also said in his state of the nation address to government officials and legislators that he had personally expressed hope to a high-ranking U.S. official for better relations between their two countries.

Chavez said he spoke with Thomas Shannon, head of the U.S. State Department's Western Hemisphere affairs bureau, on the sidelines of Nicaraguan President Daniel Ortega's inauguration earlier this week.

"We shook hands and I told him: 'I hope that everything improves,'" Chavez said. "I'm not anyone's enemy."

Chavez prompted a crash in Venezuelan share prices this past week when he announced he would seek special powers from the legislature to push through "revolutionary" reforms, including a string of nationalizations and unspecified changes to business laws and the commerce code.

He also announced plans for the state to take control of the country's largest telecommunications company, its electricity and natural gas sectors and four heavy crude upgrading projects now controlled by some of the world's top oil companies.

He said Saturday, however, that private companies would be allowed to own minority stakes in the lucrative Orinoco River basin oil projects.

The government has already taken majority ownership of all other oil-producing operations in the country through joint ventures controlled by the state oil company. Most companies have shown a willingness to continue investing despite the tightening terms, which have also included tax and royalty increases.

Hmmm. *shakes head*

Well, I can't say that we as a country shouldn't see this coming in some circumstances. Crazy ol' Chavez and "revolutionary" Ahmadinejad can certainly talk the talk, but the question is, can they indeed walk the walk as well? So often countries wander around saying that "We don't need or want America," and yet as soon as anything bad happens, it is America's problem. I suggest letting Venezuela collapse in upon itself with Chavez at the helm, and with Iran, well, we're going to have to deal with them sooner or later.

I do find it all very ironic that we as Americans are "extremely imperialistic," however it is indeed Venezuela and Iran that are both looking to dominate Latin America and the Middle East with their current policies in tow. Pot called the kettle back? I'd say so...

Meh, we can do without them. IMO, the whole world can live on without them. If they want to cause trouble, I know America will be happy to sort it out eventually. Particularly with that Pesky Chavez down in Venezuela...
 
On the surface, it doesn't seem like a bad idea, but they may just be trying to take over some of America's "imperialness." I do agree that somehow, the third world needs a little more help, but this probably isn't the way to do it. Besides, giving money is not necessarily the best way to do it. I wouldn't be suprised if money given to the 3rd world ends up in the military.
 
Ahmadinejad got something up his sleeve, or he is an idiot. He's been taunting Bush, just non-stop. It's almost like he wants Bush to attack Iran.

It will be most interesting to see how the U.S. counter this. Chavez critics mention the U.S. being their largest oil importer, but I'm sure China or India will be very happy to step right in.

I wouldn't be suprised if money given to the 3rd world ends up in the military.
That never happens!
 
Hey... I'm a third world country, over here!

Rats... my government supports the infidel imperialist Americans... there goes that juicy two billion dollars. :lol:

Not surprising at all, on any level. What's going on in the Americas south of the border has been 'alarming' for some time now, and communism is on the rise.
 
Indeed there has been trouble down there for a while... This summer I took note of Chavez's antics when the government took control of the privately owned oil industry.

I'm going to have to agree with yssman about the idea of these two 'walking the walk'... Seems to me that both want to use strong words against America as the platform for gaining power in an international arena. I doubt it will work for too long, especially if washington just quietly watches instead of responding.

No telling where things will go from here but I am sure it will be down hill for anyone involved. :indiff:
 
...What I want to know more about is what Chavez's plans are for Venezuela. There has been a massive build up of the Military and of anti-US sentiments. I doubt he would plan to attack America, but what about our allies in South America? Other innocent neighbors?

...I would love to know how some of our GTPlanet friends from South America feel about Chavez and his government...
 
Don't forget Africa. They have a lot of similar issues over there. Of course, their anger is probably directed more toward their former European occupiers.
 
The environmentalists are right. It's MUCH easier to deal with idiots and tyrants like this then it is to drill for oil on American soil. I mean, when they can just dictate how much oil the world is going to get and we HAVE to abide by it, what else can that be but extortion?

OK, that may be slightly overstating. But these guys are very much trying to get over on us with their oil. Why is it that every oil producing nation, except Canada, is trouble for the USA?
 
Russia is still causing problems? Maybe we should look into buying their country out... It isn't like they are using it anyway...
 
Russia is still causing problems? Maybe we should look into buying their country out... It isn't like they are using it anyway...
Are you talking about Russia's oil? I'm sure the Chinese are all over that!
 
Why is it that every oil producing nation, except Canada, is trouble for the USA?

I think that is a bit of a generalization. Generalizing, you could flip it and say 'why is it that the USA is trouble for every oil producing nation, except Canada.

The USA just causes problems for Canada with their lumber tariffs.
 
I think that is a bit of a generalization. Generalizing, you could flip it and say 'why is it that the USA is trouble for every oil producing nation, except Canada.

The USA just causes problems for Canada with their lumber tariffs.

You would think that since the US market is quite literally supporting their regimes they would be a little more understanding to our goals. But it's the exact opposite.

I don't think you can have the opposite. American citizens aren't the ones blowing up Iranian hospitals and malls with suicide bombs.
 
You would think that since the US market is quite literally supporting their regimes they would be a little more understanding to our goals. But it's the exact opposite.

I don't think you can have the opposite. American citizens aren't the ones blowing up Iranian hospitals and malls with suicide bombs.

What opposite? The opposite of that statement implies Iranian citizens are blowing up American hospitals and malls with suicide bombs.
 
Speedy said you could flip it around and say that the USA is trouble for Oil producing countries. My reply to that is that Americans are NOT blowing up hospitals, flying planes into buildings and suicide bombing oil producing countries. That was my point.
 
This summer I took note of Chavez's antics when the government took control of the privately owned oil industry.

er... the oil industry has always (since 1975) been owned by the Venezuelan government.

Yssman
...I would love to know how some of our GTPlanet friends from South America feel about Chavez and his government...

I'd be happy to post a thought-out bit on it... which I'll do soo enough, probably tonight, as I'm going to walk the dog at the moment.
 
I am really curious what these guys expect to do when we find something other than oil to use for fuel. I know it is a ways off, but the trend is slowly turning and eventually (decades?) we will begin using less and less oil.

And of course that "we" won't just be the United States but most western civilizations. Can they continue this tough guy talk when their international influence is lost? What will happen to third world countries that have pullled away from US support to gain support from these guys?


And really, how far can $2 billion go if you are spreading it around, as well as giving some to your own country? Western countries dole much more than that out on a regular basis and third world countries are still third world. I don't see it having enough influence to make these weaker countries completely reject America, at least not long-term.
 
I am really curious what these guys expect to do when we find something other than oil to use for fuel. I know it is a ways off, but the trend is slowly turning and eventually (decades?) we will begin using less and less oil.


Think of it as you think of the appearance of colour TVs. Even when most developed countries had coloured TVs, many 3rd world placed still had B&W. Same will happen with oil, even when well developed countries will work on alternative fuels and energy saving equipment, these countries will still rely on oil.

(sorry for the analogy, I couldn't think of something else)
 
ЯebЯum!;2544898
Think of it as you think of the appearance of colour TVs. Even when most developed countries had coloured TVs, many 3rd world placed still had B&W. Same will happen with oil, even when well developed countries will work on alternative fuels and energy saving equipment, these countries will still rely on oil.

(sorry for the analogy, I couldn't think of something else)

That's very sensible actually, as the western countries develop, the third world ones are going to embrace the technology we discard.
 
That's very sensible actually, as the western countries develop, the third world ones are going to embrace the technology we discard.

Exactly, look how India and China are coming on very strongly. 25 years ago they could've been classified as third world countries(to an extent).
 
I don't think "embrace" is the right word for it. Most 3rd world country's economies depend on oil, so once more advanced countries startfinding alternatives, the 3rd world countries will still be dependent on oil.

Sorry if I misinterpreted you, but your post seemed to indicate the 3rd world countries will use in the future what 1st world countries are using now, in this case being oil, which wouldn't be true, because they already use oil
 
ЯebЯum!;2544898
Think of it as you think of the appearance of colour TVs. Even when most developed countries had coloured TVs, many 3rd world placed still had B&W. Same will happen with oil, even when well developed countries will work on alternative fuels and energy saving equipment, these countries will still rely on oil.

(sorry for the analogy, I couldn't think of something else)
Well I was referring to Iran and Venezuela. Sure these third world countries will still need their oil, but it will not sustain them the way the US and other western cultures have.

If third world countries importing oil could sustain Venezuela or Iran then they could easily just stop exporting to the US and be fine, but the fact is the US by themselves supports enough of their economy to set them back.

I don't think "embrace" is the right word for it. Most 3rd world country's economies depend on oil, so once more advanced countries startfinding alternatives, the 3rd world countries will still be dependent on oil.
Yep, and because of supply and demand oil prices will go down because demand will drop greatly, so Venezuela and Iran would have to either sell oil at a cheap price or produce less to keep the price steady. Either way they will get less money in the end and suffer.
 
ЯebЯum!;2544924
I don't think "embrace" is the right word for it. Most 3rd world country's economies depend on oil, so once more advanced countries startfinding alternatives, the 3rd world countries will still be dependent on oil.

Sorry if I misinterpreted you, but your post seemed to indicate the 3rd world countries will use in the future what 1st world countries are using now, in this case being oil, which wouldn't be true, because they already use oil

To an extent, yes... but most third world countries don't have the road systems to be able to sustain a huge market for oil consumption (automobiles). So once they start to industrialize and modernize, they will catch up to what we already have and are moving on from.
 
To an extent, yes... but most third world countries don't have the road systems to be able to sustain a huge market for oil consumption (automobiles). So once they start to industrialize and modernize, they will catch up to what we already have and are moving on from.

er... I think you're a bit confused.

Most third world countries have pretty advanced road systems. The problem is that whenever the media shows images of these thrid world countries, they tend to focus on the slums or less-developed areas.

The real problem must be the actual definition of 3rd world country. It's sad that, say Ethiopia and Argentina fall into the same 3rd world category when they are both worlds apart in terms of development, infrastructure, economy and overall state of the country.

(I said Ethiopia and Argentina as an example, it could've been Vanuatu and Andorra, or whichever else)
 
ЯebЯum!;2545209
er... I think you're a bit confused.

Most third world countries have pretty advanced road systems. The problem is that whenever the media shows images of these thrid world countries, they tend to focus on the slums or less-developed areas.

The real problem must be the actual definition of 3rd world country. It's sad that, say Ethiopia and Argentina fall into the same 3rd world category when they are both worlds apart in terms of development, infrastructure, economy and overall state of the country.

(I said Ethiopia and Argentina as an example, it could've been Vanuatu and Andorra, or whichever else)

Well, I may be wrong... but most third world countries don't exactly have multi-lane highway systems that run all through western nations.
 
You could also include the fact that many (not all) 3rd world countries don't have the kind of economy to support everyone owning 1-2 automobiles.
 
You know, the term "third world" is regarded to have derogatory or out-of-date connotations. The politically correct term is "developing nation". ;)

So anyway, the problem with Venezuela and other countries which have changed their status towards the US is the following:

Take a "developing nation" with roughly 30 years of democracy and on medium-to-well terms with most of their biggest buying countries and you've practically described most of the countries in South America.

But the problem is that in those roughly 30 years of democracy (Venezuela has about 45) most of the system is highly corrupt; it has become a system where the 10-15% of the country receives around 80% of the finances that enter and the poor are everyday more.

Enter Chavez (or any other populist candidate). He tried to overthrow the government twice in the 90s and was seen by so many poor people as a good alternative. I mean, you have 40 years of corruption and here comes someone who says he'll change everything, not by moving those funds away from the corrupt politicians, but away from the rich people.

You've got to understand Chavez has been taught by Fidel Castro, and as such, what he's doing in Venezuela is what Castro did in Cuba 50 years ago: Weakening the oposition, making sure all his opponents are either dead or scared out of the country, and in general, weakening the strong, as opposed to strengthening the weak.

Up until the mid 90s, Venezuela was the 2nd largest supplier of oil to the US. In recent years, the US has been able to distance themselves from Chavez's semi-socialism and Venezuela is now the 7th supplier.

But that's not all. Take these "developing nations" again, during 30 or so years they've been hearing the same mumbo jumbo from the same corrupt politicians and then comes someone who claims to be different, with a different system (usually socialist) and promises all kinds fo things whcih in the end are what the people want to hear. Then they make the US as the reason why everything is bad in their country and the center of all evil. Now the badness has a name, an origin and a cause: Imperialism.

Since around 1960 to 1995, no more than 100,000 Venezuelans had left the country to live someplace else. Since Chavez came into power in Venezuela (1998), more than 3.5 million have left (myself included). The country has gone downhill fast. I'm not saying the situation wasn't crappy to begin with; in fact, it was slowly becoming bad, but after Chavez and his ideas came into power, eveyrthing just went into freefall.

I find it very sad what has happened and it's the reason I tend to lose my tempter when someone comes with leftist ideas and starts talking about the wonders of socialism (not saying that happens here in GTP; it's more of a Spanish thing, to be honest) and how we should all embrace it and reject imperialism and capitalism.

Sadly the future holds more Chavezs and Castros and Morales, especially in South America, since around 90% of it is very poor and similar situations have arisen where the winning party is usually the one backed by Chavez/Castro. There are few exceptions (Mexico for one), but as more and more people's ignorance gets in power and developed countries fall to Venezuela's oil and cheap treaties, less of a chance will smaller countries have of getting away from the "one or the other" policy.
 
I'm just waiting for the same thing to happen to the Philippines.

After two "bloodless revolutions", we've fallen into the same corrupt circle we were in before the fascist regime of the Marcoses. I don't see the communists taking over, or the ultra-rightists, as they've finally become part of said corrupt system, and are enjoying the fruits of demoracy (massive kickbacks, pork-barrel funding, etcetera), but I don't see the situation getting any better. We already had our "different" moment, and the guy turned out to be just as corrupt as the traditionalists.

And, yeah, where the heck do some guys get the idea us third-worlders don't drive? I live in a third world country and I've got a five car garage. Admittedly, one of those cars doesn't work, but heck, I use about as much oil as the average American... :lol:

And for places with poor roads (hardly any places with no roads, except very very far out in the wilderness), there are old diesel Jeeps and Landcruisers, or, the Third World favorite, the motorbike. Given that most people struggle to make more than $100 a month, the fact that you can get a motorbike for only $500-$600 dollars that'll take you just about anywhere means that a whole lot of the third world is already on the road.

Oil is even more important in the third-world than in developed countries, on a more personal level. We buy our natural gas by the barrel per household, not from subsidized public utility... for cooking, and some of us use coal for daily cooking and not just fun weekend barbecues. Gas or diesel powered hand tractors for farms, ancient diesel trucks for produce transport, diesel for industry and power production.

Construction and development demands a lot of petroleum. Part of the disdain the "third-world" has for proposed greenhouse gas legislation is because it'll slow down economic development... another "imperialst" ploy to keep them down.

First-worlders actually have the luxury of picking their poison of choice. I always laugh when anyone says that Hybrids will save the world. Obviously, they can't if 99% of the driving/commuting public can't afford them... they'll stay a niche vehicle for a niche market, and everyone else will still buy oil.

As a side note, we already get electric vehicles. Crude, short-ranged, and expensive to run, even when made to a pro-poor price, they come off as more of a rich-guy's toy. People still go for motorbikes.

Development costs energy, and petroleum and coal are still the least expensive ways to get energy, even with the supplemental power coming from hydroelectricity, geothermal plants and wind farms (which are really not enough). As long as this holds true, oil producing countries like Venezuela will always have some form of power over others.
 
And, yeah, where the heck do some guys get the idea us third-worlders don't drive? I live in a third world country and I've got a five car garage. Admittedly, one of those cars doesn't work, but heck, I use about as much oil as the average American... :lol:

For a third world country, the Phillipines has areas and cities that are pretty modern. I'm guessing that the area you are living in is fairly populated and thus has decent roads.

Still, there's no way you can tell me your highway system is anywhere near that of a western country... parts of it maybe. But the average road in a country like yours is much bumpier than a road in mine.

Which isn't to say that the technology for laying down smooth asphalt and concrete is the top factor for determining the status of a country's economic health. But in order to sustain the instant communication and technology to enter into the next revolution, countries need excellent roads to do that.
 
ЯebЯum!;2545267
You know, the term "third world" is regarded to have derogatory or out-of-date connotations. The politically correct term is "developing nation". ;)
And I am far from PC.

So anyway, the problem with Venezuela and other countries which have changed their status towards the US is the following:

<snip>

Then they make the US as the reason why everything is bad in their country and the center of all evil. Now the badness has a name, an origin and a cause: Imperialism.
The problem here is that these countries unfortunately have their first experience with Democracy become a corrupt Democracy, which is technically, if using literal definitions, not a Democracy. Democracy requires equality among the people and a corrupt government is raising themselves above the people simply because they can. Of course it is ridiculous to expect this to happen over night. Even the US went almost 200 years before all races were given true equality (Civil Rights movement).

The funny thing is that Chavez then makes the US out to be a bad guy by accusing them of Imperialism, while at the same time giving aid to countries willing to oppose America, thus influencing these countries. The term Imperialism has become too loosely used, especially in a world with a global economy where trade with one another is a necessity. Globalization is not Imperialism, but opponents make it appear that way.

I find it very sad what has happened and it's the reason I tend to lose my tempter when someone comes with leftist ideas and starts talking about the wonders of socialism (not saying that happens here in GTP; it's more of a Spanish thing, to be honest) and how we should all embrace it and reject imperialism and capitalism.

Sadly the future holds more Chavezs and Castros and Morales, especially in South America, since around 90% of it is very poor and similar situations have arisen where the winning party is usually the one backed by Chavez/Castro. There are few exceptions (Mexico for one), but as more and more people's ignorance gets in power and developed countries fall to Venezuela's oil and cheap treaties, less of a chance will smaller countries have of getting away from the "one or the other" policy.
The trend tends to swing back and forth. Before WWII socialism looked liek a good idea and Communism was a growing trend in the world. Then we went into the Cold War and communism began to be seen as evil and the US even had Communist "witch hunts" to prevent them from infiltrating public opinion. This went well into the 80's when the largest Communist threat fell. But by the 90s Socialist ideas began to appear more satisfying because we all want what the succesful/rich have. This mindset led to support of Chavez outside of Venezuela. I am sure that things will eventually swing back again.

The question is: how much damage is done before it does?

I'm just waiting for the same thing to happen to the Philippines.

After two "bloodless revolutions", we've fallen into the same corrupt circle we were in before the fascist regime of the Marcoses. I don't see the communists taking over, or the ultra-rightists, as they've finally become part of said corrupt system, and are enjoying the fruits of demoracy (massive kickbacks, pork-barrel funding, etcetera), but I don't see the situation getting any better. We already had our "different" moment, and the guy turned out to be just as corrupt as the traditionalists.
Unfortunately, history seems to show that for a change to work it has to be a complete switch and greed cannot come into play. It is a shame when a switch from corruption happens but the new guys are just as bad. In this case teh new leaders couldn't care less about the people and the country, but want a new system so they can benefit more. This is the same mindset holding Iraq back because the different groups can't accept that being equal is the way to go.

Eventually the Philippines will have an honest leader, even if they aren't an actual government official, who will help lead teh country to where they need to be. The question is: How long will that take?

And, yeah, where the heck do some guys get the idea us third-worlders don't drive? I live in a third world country and I've got a five car garage. Admittedly, one of those cars doesn't work, but heck, I use about as much oil as the average American... :lol:
The socialists that think I should give all my money to third-world countries because they barely are able to feed themselves, much less own multiple cars and houses. Usually this refers to places in Africa. I've actually never heard anyone say that we need to help the Philippines because they are so poor and sick.

Plus, how much of the population in the average third world country has a five-car garage and drives 80 miles a day just for work, as I do? I never claimed there were no cars. Just that it isn't an extravagance the way it is in the US.

Construction and development demands a lot of petroleum. Part of the disdain the "third-world" has for proposed greenhouse gas legislation is because it'll slow down economic development... another "imperialst" ploy to keep them down.
There is some definite misinformation if that is the thought process. Funny that the same people (Republicans) in America that Chavez accuses of Imperialism fight environmental laws because we know that it will slow progress.

First-worlders actually have the luxury of picking their poison of choice. I always laugh when anyone says that Hybrids will save the world. Obviously, they can't if 99% of the driving/commuting public can't afford them... they'll stay a niche vehicle for a niche market, and everyone else will still buy oil.
More than that can afford them, but some don't want them. Plus prices will come down over time.

As a side note, we already get electric vehicles. Crude, short-ranged, and expensive to run, even when made to a pro-poor price, they come off as more of a rich-guy's toy. People still go for motorbikes.
I remember the few electric car designs that came out. Most of them were dumped before they could even get to market. We drive to far and too fast for them to have been feesible. Maybe in the future better battery technology can come about and they will begin to become common, but not for a while.

Plus, every eco-friendly person who talked about how great and non-polluting the electric car will be had a guy like me who said, "Yep, because the electricity in the socket comes from trees. Whether you burn the oil in your car or at the power plant doesn't matter, but the electric car sucks to drive."

Development costs energy, and petroleum and coal are still the least expensive ways to get energy, even with the supplemental power coming from hydroelectricity, geothermal plants and wind farms (which are really not enough). As long as this holds true, oil producing countries like Venezuela will always have some form of power over others.
But when the large countries have developed beyond petroleum needs then Venezuela will find themselves having trouble maintaining that power financially. If the US and Europe all quit using oil I really think Venezuela would be hurting and unable to hand out cash or free oil.
 
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