US and Iran Make Breakthrough Nuclear Deal

[Tornado]

Certainly wouldn't want to cut and run instead.

 

[F1jocker12]

Insane Israeli Defense Minister declares how his government is considering a nuclear attack against Iran.

In response to a question about Iran, [Moshe] Yaalon said that “in certain cases” when “we feel like we don’t have the answer by surgical operations” Israel might take “certain steps” such as the Americans did in “Nagasaki and Hiroshima, causing at the end the fatalities of 200,000.”

Now remember how Iran doesn't have a single nuclear weapon, it is a long time NPT signatory and is very close to agree to regular inspections of its nuclear development sites, while Israel is quite the opposite to anything like this.

Yaalon also mentioned his criminal intentions and explained how

Israel would attack entire civilian neighborhoods during any future assault on Gaza or Lebanon.

Speaking at a conference in Jerusalem, Yaalon threatened that “we are going to hurt Lebanese civilians to include kids of the family. We went through a very long deep discussion … we did it then, we did it in [the] Gaza Strip, we are going to do it in any round of hostilities in the future.”

Israeli defense minister promises to kill more civilians and threatens to nuke Iran

 

[Tornado]

Literally nothing about the first quote is news in any way ("Country with nukes has plans for if they need to use them! News at 11"), nor do his quotes support the way the article title twisted it.

 

[Blitz24]

Literally nothing about the first quote is news in any way ("Country with nukes has plans for if they need to use them! News at 11"), nor do his quotes support the way the article title twisted it.

But he needs to say it that way and twist the quotes and sensationalize his posts in order to make Israel and everyone affiliated with it Satan.

 

[F1jocker12]

King Salman of Saudi Arabia is making a big, big mistake

Saudi Arabia announced on Sunday that its new monarch, King Salman, would not be attending meetings at the White House with President Obama or a summit gathering at Camp David this week, in an apparent signal of its continued displeasure with the administration over United States relations with Iran, its rising regional adversary.

“there’s a growing perception at the White House that the U.S. and Saudi Arabia are friends but not allies, while the U.S. and Iran are allies but not friends.”

from
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/11/w...king-wont-attend-camp-david-meeting.html?_r=2

 

[squadops]

Maybe Obama is the one making a mistake, I'd hardly call the king not attending a big big anything tbh. It's a little surprising that so many other leaders are following suit however.

 

[Blitz24]

Because he doesn't like what direction the US is going. Whether or not it's a "big mistake" is subjective.

 

[squadops]

Protesting over the Iran talks is only a part of the decision though, there is the cease fire in Yemen and also the fact he's 'new'.

 

[F1jocker12]

Who is King Salman?
Remember Zacarias Moussaoui, the Al Qaeda operative captured before 9/11 in Minnesota on August 16th, 2001?

Well,

In highly unusual testimony inside the federal supermax prison, a former operative for Al Qaeda has described prominent members of Saudi Arabia’s royal family as major donors to the terrorist network in the late 1990s

There has often been tension between Saudi leaders and the Obama administration since the Arab uprisings of 2011 and the efforts to manage the region’s resulting turmoil. Mr. Moussaoui describes meeting in Saudi Arabia with Salman, then a prince, and other Saudi royals while delivering them letters from Osama bin Laden.

Feb 3rd 2015 New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/04/us/zacarias-moussaoui-calls-saudi-princes-patrons-of-al-qaeda.html

Moussaoui's list also contains few interesting names:
Turki Al Faisal - former head of Saudi Intelligence, former ambassador to the US and the UK;
Bandar bin Sultan - very close to the BUsh family, nicknamed by former US president George W. Bush, Bandar Bush;
Al-Waleed bin Talal - megainvestor in CitiGroup and Murdoch News Corporation
.... four interesting saudi "Jack's", some will say.....

And if you think this guy is crazy, think twice

But Judge Leonie M. Brinkema, who presided, declared that she was “fully satisfied that Mr. Moussaoui is completely competent” and called him “an extremely intelligent man.”

“He has actually a better understanding of the legal system than some lawyers I’ve seen in court,” she said.

 

[Johnnypenso]

King Salman of Saudi Arabia is making a big, big mistake

What mistake?

 

[F1jocker12]

Salman is afraid of being publicly spanked by the US president, but spanking is a soft punishment for his behaviour.

The Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) leaders

cannot expect the United States automatically to take their part in the struggle between Sunnis and Shias, which entered its current phase after the US-led 2003 invasion of Iraq upset the rough balance between the two key confessions in the Islamic world—and which was one of the worst foreign policy decisions in US history. The US does not have a dog in the fight between Sunnis and Shias and it should stop letting anyone believe it does. Saudi Arabia also needs to be told that the US will no longer support its assault on the Houthi minority in Yemen, which Riyadh has pursued on the tenuous premise that the Houthis are somehow just a cat’s paw for Iran.

Also

By extension, the US does not have an interest in toppling the Alawite (Shia) government of Syria’s president, Bashar Al-Assad, without there being something viable to put in its place that will not just lead to an even greater bloodbath and an even broader regional conflict. Sunni states want to get their own back after the toppling of Sunni Saddam Hussein. But this is not in America’s interest, and we should stop acting as though it is.

Of course

The US certainly wants to stop IS and to keep the cancer of the Taliban, al-Qaeda, and other enemies of modernization in the Islamic world from prevailing. But to do so, the US first needs Sunni Arabs, and especially Saudi Arabia, to stop throwing gasoline on the fire.

This is the support provided by rich and/or religious Saudis and some other Arabs for the worst of the worst terrorists on the planet. It has long been no secret that critical elements of the inspiration, arms, and money that launched and still play a critical role in sustaining the Taliban, al-Qaeda (and its ilk), and now IS have come from sources in Saudi Arabia and some of its neighbors. (It was not for nothing that 19 of the 20 9/11 hijackers were Saudi nationals).

Obama was way to cool about all this "manure"

There was no indication that, when the US president went to Riyadh in January to greet the new king, Salman bin Abdulaziz Al Saud, Obama even broached this subject. Certainly he did not draw a red line over the conduct of Saudis and others, which, among other things, has cost American lives in the region.

Now the President

needs to send a message, quietly but firmly and unmistakably: cut it out or we will cut you off.

More importantly

The US will provide reassurance against a potentially militarily resurgent Iran and any other realistic regional bugaboos. But it comes at a price that must be honored. The GCC countries must put a total stop to support for Islamist terrorism and accept that the US will look for allies in this fight wherever it finds them, including in Teheran.

There is no question about how

the administration needs to start thinking about developing a regional security system that is not directed against anyone but in which all states will have a chance to take part—and that means Israel and, if Tehran in time will “play by the rules,” Iran as well. This is key to America’s eventually being able to reduce its heavy military presence in the region, so it can get on with other business in Asia and elsewhere. But it can’t just be a matter of throwing more arms into the region and then walking away. Arms control has to be part of it.

According to the International Institute for Strategic Studies, Saudi Arabia on its own spends more than five times as much on defense as does Iran

There are many people not trusting Iran, but

True, there is Iranian support for Hezbollah (Lebanon) and to a lesser degree Hamas (Gaza), but no one knows for sure how much of this is just tactical rather than strategic, in order for Iran to have a card to play in its struggle with the West. This important distinction can be tested following a nuclear agreement.

Besides that

Saudis—stoutly resist serious internal social and political modernization

Above all this, for the President

The tough part is to endeavor to “do good.” That time is now.

About the author

Robert E. Hunter served as US ambassador to NATO (1993-98) and on the National Security Council staff throughout the Carter administration, first as Director of West European Affairs and then as Director of Middle East Affairs. In the last-named role, he was the White House representative at the Autonomy Talks for the West Bank and Gaza and developer of the Carter Doctrine for the Persian Gulf. He was Senior Advisor to the RAND Corporation from 1998 to 2011, and Director of the Center for Transatlantic Security Studies at the National Defense University, 2011-2012. He has been Chairman of the Council for a Community of Democracies since 2002 and is a member of the American Academy of Diplomacy.

http://www.lobelog.com/obama-to-the-gcc-a-mixed-message/

 

[Johnnypenso]

Salman is afraid of being publicly spanked by the US president, but spanking is a soft punishment for his behaviour.

The Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) leaders
Also

Of course

Obama was way to cool about all this "manure"

Now the President
More importantly

There is no question about how

There are many people not trusting Iran, but

Besides that

Above all this, for the President


About the author


http://www.lobelog.com/obama-to-the-gcc-a-mixed-message/

So what is his mistake? Can I just get a paragraph or two in your own words instead of hundreds of words from other people?

 

[Blitz24]

So what is his mistake? Can I just get a paragraph or two in your own words instead of hundreds of words from other people?

TL;DR version.
Saudi king is backwards thinking and we don't know what he truly wants, so he's more dangerous than Iran. Therefore we should take this as a reason to further support Iran.

 

[Dotini]

TL;DR version.
Saudi king is backwards thinking and we don't know what he truly wants, so he's more dangerous than Iran. Therefore we should take this as a reason to further support Iran.

That path could lead to a Saudi nuclear bomb program.

 

[Blitz24]

That path could lead to a Saudi nuclear bomb program.

Between two hard places here it seems.

 

[F1jocker12]

TL;DR version.
Saudi king is backwards thinking and we don't know what he truly wants, so he's more dangerous than Iran. Therefore we should take this as a reason to further support Iran.

Support Iran?

Again

the administration needs to start thinking about developing a regional security system that is not directed against anyone but in which all states will have a chance to take part—and that means Israel and, if Tehran in time will “play by the rules,” Iran as well. This is key to America’s eventually being able to reduce its heavy military presence in the region

 

[Blitz24]

Then what is the point?

 

[squadops]

Do we know what the big big mistake is yet?

 

[High-Test]

No, Israel is scared. That was my point. And why shouldn't they be? It's in Israel's best interest for Iran to have nothing nuclear.

They're civilian nuclear program is not easily converted to a weapons program. But its existence allows for that possibility. That is why Israel does not approve. Maybe everyone would freak out less if Iran hadn't postured aggressively against Israel and weren't actively engaged in proxy wars with the Saudis.

Remember what danoff said. Who really thinks intent means anything in matters of national security? Not anyone that isn't completely naive.

Personally, I hope they continue towards peace and that negotiating can be successful. I just wonder why they couldn't just buy what they needed as a show of good faith, or what the financials were like that they couldn't make that happen.

Thing 1: I have been gone a long while. Good to see you've become one with the order of Modgdor the Banninator.

Thing 2: The buying argument makes a great deal of sense. Iran is blessed with a vast abundance of mineral resources, some of which are far more precious kilo for kilo than oil. The issue is that the Saudis have been vexed by Iran since 1979, and Iran actually can claim legitimacy in the eyes of the global ummah. Who gets to claim the status of the Shepherd? The Saudis want to keep claiming it. Has Saudi Arabia accomplished anything remarkable in the face of global sanctions? Nope. Has Iran? Actually, yes. The Saudis might possibly be as freaked out by the prospect of Iran having a scant chance of building a bomb as the Israelis, if not more so, but the Saud family has been notoriously tight-lipped.

Remember, the critical piece of American support for the Saud dynasty AND the Pahlavi dynasty was the staunch anti-communist, monarchic bent of each. Remove the Shah, the United States continues supporting the Monarchies (Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Afghanistan) in the face of Soviet backed dictators or extremist regimes.

Israel is not scared. They have a huge nuclear arsenal. Besides that, using nuclear weapons in the area, will anihilate both sides, and realistically nobody believes Bibi anymore. Even Mossad's reports are saying Iranians are not after a nuclear weapon.
And, on top of everything, Iran is not an aggressive attacking, crazy nation. Never was. Never will be. Iran was not aggressive towards Israel... that is a mith... wiping Israel off the map... Iran supports a "multicultural" state, versur, a "jewish" only state...

As a nation, Iran can develop nuclear facilities, and they've regulary accepted international inspections. When it comes to Israel, the reality changes... They've never accepted international inspections, and never signed the NPT. The moment you stop being affarid of Iran, the next logical question is, why is Israel hiding? - Because the International Community will ask them to regulate their development.
In theory, having nuclear weapons makes that nation very difficult to attack, that's why Israel is pushing against Iran. Closing the circle, any use of a nuclear wepon in Middle East will damage everybody, so it's out of question anyway. So what is Israel doing? Diverting... Time will tell what they are trying to divert from....

Hold on a minute. Huge? If they have such things, do they know their atomic boomsticks work? The Israelis might have a couple dozen, tops. But that's conjecture. In the 1980s, Israel leveled Saddam Hussein's reactor. Twice. they did it again in the early 2000s by flattening Bashar al-Assad's reactor. Saddam was at the top of his game in the 1980s. He had legions of the best french and russian equipment that money could buy. Yet the reactor was destroyed - twice. Not by nuclear weapons, but by a small contingent of obscenely fast strike fighters. It makes one wonder, then. Why is the Iranian reactor still standing? The nation that has mastered the art of the surprise attack ought to be able to pull it off in this case. whether Israel can pull it off isn't the question. Empirical evidence suggests that they indeed can. Could have. Yet.. didn't.

What, praytell, might the State that conveniently does not hang people from construction equipment for homosexuality, apostasy, possession of wine, and does not have the world's largest opium problem have to hide? What are those scheming Jews up to? The goodly and altruistic Persians certainly acted in a vacuum without any exterior stimuli, never funded Hezbollah, propped up the Assad regime, blew up Jew-frequented places as far away as Buenos Aires, no. They'd never have done that. Are they hiding a functioning economy? The fact that their arab citizens have pretty awesome rights? Nah. can't be that.

Maybe, perchance, the next logical question after reaching the point of "Not being afraid of Iran" is "How to convince people that Iran isn't the bad guy right now" instead of your continuous and incorrect follow-up of "How do I make everyone afraid of the Jew State?" Does it really matter what the Israelis are hiding? Have they supported for thirty-six years the idea that Iran must be destroyed, and anybody who dies destroying Iran gets 72 nice Jewish girls? It's a Jewish conspiracy, man. They are out to destroy everything you love, because apparently, they are just that scary.

 

[F1jocker12]

Does it really matter what the Israelis are hiding?

Then why hide it?
(the rest about gays, wine and opium doesn't have anything to do with the nuclear aspect of this thread - I like the part about the jewish girls, but let's move out the pedophilic nuance, and say jewish women)

also read my comment #106

 

[High-Test]

Then why hide it?
(the rest about gays, wine and opium doesn't have anything to do with the nuclear aspect of this thread - I like the part about the jewish girls, but let's move out the pedophilic nuance, and say jewish women)

also read my comment #106

Suppose I read the mentioned post. My eyes are bleeding. What exactly is a Christian Jew? An entire being that goes into spiritual apoptosis due to gross contradictions? I should believe this guy? Maybe there's an actual reason he was in jail? Yes, actually. There was.

Also, you have yet to state explicitly yourself just exactly what Salman's mistake might have been.

Gays, opium, and wine have everything to do with your false assertion that Iran is a multicultural nation striving to protect its multiculturalism. It simply is not. It is doing nothing whatsoever to protect the rights of those that might be of a different worldview than what Ayatollah Ali Syed Khamenei wants. Usually these other cultures think differently and there could be a chance for **gasp** dissent. Your claim that Israel is an oppressive monoculture is false.

Suggesting I am a pedophile? You are classy. But I have the right to encourage you to try a few things:

1. Spell correctly. A mith? What's a mith? Are they a blue offshoot of the horns section of the mos Eisley Cantina Band?

2. Employ some better skills in attempting to argue like a historian. Sources are great, but if you are trying to whitewash Iran in all things and blackwash Israel in all things, you might want to employ some sources that:

a. Are recent. More recent than 2011. That might be nice.
b. come from somewhere reputable
i. not from conspiracy theorist hotbeds
c. were written by someone with a passable modicum of journalistic integrity
d. get some to counterbalance the others. If you don't, you will still draw the same outrageous conclusions over which we have been calling you out. It does you a service - you'll know where the possible pitfalls are to your point. It does us a service as well.

3. Form your own conclusions rather than claim that article x is your point entirely. They're not your words. We would like to assume these are good faith forums and that people aren't entirely crazy. Proving us wrong, however, is indeed your sovereign right.

It is amazing how it is incumbent upon me to answer a question when twelve people have asked you to show the same courtesy. But, I'm a pedophile right? I've been called crazy things in eleven years on these boards, but that takes the cake.

 

[F1jocker12]

Again

Then why hide it?
(the rest about gays, wine and opium doesn't have anything to do with the nuclear aspect of this thread

Off topic - I said "the nuance" - you make me laugh... I still love the jewish women, but not the virgin ones. (they are not necessarily supposed to be "girls" in order to be virgins).
Advise for you - create a thread about the nuclear Israel and we can expand on that
At this point, older sources about Israel's secrets are pluses, not minuses.
Spelling? I expect your next word to be "Holocaust".

 

[High-Test]

I expect your next several words to be an answer to our too often repeated question: WHAT WAS SALMAN'S MISTAKE!?

I'm off topic for engaging you?

I frankly could give a fart about whether or not you said nuance. In a nuanced way, you implied that I am a pedophile. unacceptable.

 

[TenEightyOne]

In a nuanced way, you implied that I am a pedophile. unacceptable.

I wasn't sure that was what he meant and then he kind-of retracted it anyway.

At this point though it's hard to tell where he's going with this latest argument.

What was Salman's mistake, @F1jocker12? I'm intrigued to know some of your own thoughts rather than your patient shepherding of other people's material. It can't be to do with oil, the US are in net refinement deficit (hence Keystone XL et al), I'd say the Saudis hold cards there.

Incidentally, if you don't know the history of Al Qaueda, or about the Bin Laden family, or Qutb's influence on modern Salafist jihad then it makes a fascinating read. Just don't c+p it all here

 

[Dotini]

I think it's possible King Salman made a mistake, or took a gamble. By staying away, he made it impossible for the GCC summit to sanction any new coordinated regional plans Obama may have proposed. He risks a historical rift in US relations, arms and money over the Iran/nuke issue. But it's a small risk, since Obama likely can't/won't go so far, so soon. And we don't know if Obama's plans would have been for the better or for the worse. The net effect is a diminution of American influence over the course of events in the Middle East. Is that a mistake? Maybe, maybe not.

 

[High-Test]

I wasn't sure that was what he meant and then he kind-of retracted it anyway.

At this point though it's hard to tell where he's going with this latest argument.

What was Salman's mistake, @F1jocker12? I'm intrigued to know some of your own thoughts rather than your patient shepherding of other people's material. It can't be to do with oil, the US are in net refinement deficit (hence Keystone XL et al), I'd say the Saudis hold cards there.

Incidentally, if you don't know the history of Al Qaueda, or about the Bin Laden family, or Qutb's influence on modern Salafist jihad then it makes a fascinating read. Just don't c+p it all here

Man, Qutb. And Sheikh bin Baz, and Juhayman al-Utaybi.. the gang's all here!

Yes, what did Salman do this time? Wear a suit less snazzy than pictured in his mayoral office photos? Takfir I say!

His decision not to go did likely nerf the GCC.

 

[F1jocker12]

With everybody's permission I will deviate a little from the topic - the deal between 5+1 powers and Iran.

What I've mentioned about Iran's society in general was contextual in the sense of the so called fear "created" by Iran in the Middle East. I would say that "fear" is artificially created and fuelled by Israel and few radical Arab states. Israel is diverting and those few Arab states are playing a super dangerous card here. Saudi Arabia invested 16 billions in Israel (money that Israel is building settlements with) in exchange of lobby in the US. No arab leader that is against Iran having a nuclear program and development, would have had access to the American Congress, like Bibi did. From here, you will start asking many questions regarding those 16 billion dollars, or Israel-Saudi connection.... I have material touching on those aspects, but this is not the right thread. Sorry... If you are good with the internet, you might be able to find it too. In my opinion, the reason Israel is pushing settlements while the entire International Community tells them to stop, is because Saudi's gave up their support for the Palestinians, choosing to pay Israel in order to push US to fail the nuclear negotiations with Iran. Essentially, in case of the new Palestinian Authority/Palestine new elections, Israel will "put its money" on Mohammed Dahlan (and Marwan Barghouti), which Israel is having secret meetings with. So, no Abbas anymore.

Iran is not a threat. It has a history of more than 3000 years of existing, surviving and ruling in the region and it never was an aggressive attacking nation. Besides that, rhetorical question for all of the readers... Who do you think understands better the dynamics of the Middle East? Iran - over 3000 years force of the region, or Israel - 66 years of schizophrenic criminal behaviour? Just think about it?

On top of that, this thread's topic was not about "social justice or injustice"

State that conveniently does not hang people from construction equipment for homosexuality, apostasy, possession of wine, and does not have the world's largest opium problem have to hide

which every single country in the world has a problem over and with(more or less of course). Again, my comments, were contextual, regarding the so called "wiping Israel of the map" thing. The idea is to change Israel from inside out as a system. As long as Israel's leaders will scream how Israel is the "only jewish nation" it wont help. That is discrimination and proves how the today's minorities conditions in Israel are worse than the well known harsh south african apartheid, as reported by UN representatives and inspectors.
...............................................................................................................................

I frankly could give a fart about whether or not you said nuance

At this point, everybody can see you are suicidal and balanced members try to help

I wasn't sure that was what he meant

That is exactly what you need. Help.
............................................................................................................................
Regarding Salman's mistake. Hmmmm. This is the easiest one... When you have a meeting with the President of the United States, you do not cancel. This behaviour will hurt Saudi Arabia diplomatically, politically and economically. At this point, US is so strong that no other nation in the world can compete with or challenge it. Military, economically and politically, United States is set to dominate for a long time. King Salman was ill advised and his people will no longer be covered by the american umbrella, as they were in the past I'll be here to give you the heads up, if the mainstream media will "somehow" miss it.

We do not have a thread dedicated to these aspects, and touching on some details will be confusing for you the readers, only because I will force the discussion around the topic and not away from it, sometimes even by ignoring questions, especially the childish ones, no offence.

Sorry for the off topic comment. I don't even think it was so necessary as long as, knowing how certain members will jump on illusory conclusions, it will generate more off topic questions. Please, if it is possible for you, create private conversations, and we can discuss further.

 

[TenEightyOne]

At this point, everybody can see you are suicidal and balanced members try to help

Sorry?

That is exactly what you need. Help.

You've lost me, far too erudite.

 

[Blitz24]

The way you made your comment could have been read as @High-Test being a pedophile. Now you accuse him of being suicidal and needs to seek treatment. Is this a comment section on CNN?

 

[High-Test]

From here, you will start asking many questions regarding those 16 billion dollars, or Israel-Saudi connection.... I have material touching on those aspects, but this is not the right thread. Sorry... If you are good with the internet, you might be able to find it too. In my opinion, the reason Israel is pushing settlements while the entire International Community tells them to stop, is because Saudi's gave up their support for the Palestinians, choosing to pay Israel in order to push US to fail the nuclear negotiations with Iran.

I do believe you brought up the issue in the first place. Unless you would like to make judicious use of the edit button in an attempt to claim victory. However, you point at vagaries. "Israel-Saudi connection" brings up conspiracy theory page after conspiracy theory page, cnn comments, and the idea that the al-Saud family is Jewish. That's cute. They fund wahhabism. They enforce wahhabism, which is the engine of modern radical Islam. 36 years later they won't admit that it took three French guys to end the siege of the grand mosque. Also, they'd have their status as the keepers of the shrines horribly eroded when the global ummah finds out that they've been giving billions to Israel.

Put up or shut up. Let's see some some sources. Actually, I'm an expert at employing the internet. There's the whole graduate student thing. I research often.

You assume I will draw your desired conclusions from your vagaries. I will indeed ask many questions, none of them the ones you have the hubris to demand that I ask.

QUOTE=F1Jocker12 At this point, everybody can see you are suicidal and balanced members try to help[/QUOTE]

Were you appealing to other members to save me in my supposed suicidal delirium? Punctuation might have helped that.

First I'm a pedophile, now I'm suicidal? I wonder what's next. This could be immensely entertaining.

The way you made your comment could have been read as @High-Test being a pedophile. Now you accuse him of being suicidal and needs to seek treatment. Is this a comment section on CNN?

And another false conclusion. @Blitz24 is somebody. Meaning that everybody - @Blitz24 =/= everybody. Clearly, some people can see that I am not suicidal.

Yes, Blitz. Welcome to the new drift forum. CNN comments below.