America: are we too arrogant?

[yeti]

Well technically lowering the speed limit will reduce fuel consumption...

C.

 

[wellyrn]

I love when you quote me led and then say something that has nothing to do with the quote. It makes you apear intelligent and educated. You pointed out my BS to everyone so i might as well admit it. The USA is a poor and miserable country, a country in such squalor should be happy it can even manage to fight those fat cat middle easterners. It should attempt to engage in a long and childish war of ideals that will only end when 1 side has been eradicated entirely. Please America, never back down until everyone accepts your beliefs as thier own.

Would you also like me to reverse my dasardly comment that the attack on the WTC was in the past but still saddening?

Oh yeah and everyone loves the US being the sole superpower that dictates thier own countries future, especially canadians.

happy?

 

[Duke]

I love when you quote me led and then say something that has nothing to do with the quote. It makes you apear intelligent and educated.

So is this what Michael Moore is trying to do?

 

[87chevy]

Well, 1) Just because the losing side of a fight is extremely outgunned and never had a chance, doesn't mean the fight should not have occured. 2) I don't agree with taking over a country for economical reason's and especially not just because the person in power feels he has to settle a personal score. 3) In the end, Iraq is better off. We have given them something no one else in the world, as much as they would talk about it, has given them. The door to self rule. They have the chance now to decide for themselves where they want their nation to go, and how to take it there. We cannot force them to take this oppurtunity. We can encourage them. Getting rid of Sadam Hussien and his son's was justified for me simply for the fact that now, those little half naked 4 year olds, walking in a playing in a sewage filled street with no shoes, will have a chance at a much better life. We cannot guaranty that those little kids will have a vastly improved lifestyle, but at least they have the chance.
Sure there are those who will make a profit off this war, but what doesn't someone make a profit off of? It's not really right that some get rich off of a war, but it happens. They earned it right danoff? Anyways, America ended up doing what everyone else said should be done, but didn't want to do.

How can you say America has no heros in this? Just because they are fighting and dying in this war, doesn't mean they are doing it for oil! Do you really think that was my motivation while I was over there? No. The American soldiers who are dying overthere are fighting because they believe Sadam was not only preventing his own people from being free but because he was a also a threat to the freedom of others. And he had no problem displaying his lack of regard for human life. And those "rebels" you keep refferring to wellyrn continually show they have no regard for human life either. Of course they are justified in blowing up mosques and clinics to repel the "invaders"!!!! You sure you are getting objective "facts" over there?

 

[///M-Spec]

lost cause? im just a neutral 3rd party stating that america oversteps legal and moral bounds and gets away with it because of its power. Its easy to think you are doing the right thing, but have you ever wondered why Europeans, Canadians, Mexicans, Middle Easterners, Asians, hell, even the oxymoron of Un-American Americans are turning anti-american? Do think they just decided one day that theyd hate america?

You are a lost cause because you are not interested in intelligent debate of any sort. You are far from a "neutral third party" and your analysis of world events are so ridicuoulsly warped with bias, amazing leaps in logic, no regard to causality and unwarranted assumptions, most people don't see any point in responding; it would take days to wade through all the loaded, arrogant, self-serving statements you make.

Take these gems:

87 chevy and viper zero: you are not responding to me, you are responding to what your media tells you i think.

Actual meaning: You are incapable of free thought because you disagree with me.

the reason you dont care is because you are on the gravy train, your views are the establishments and you dont care if blacks, muslims, gays, socialists and hispanics get thier rights trampled on.

Actual meaning: If you disagree with me, you must be a racist.

im not going to argue this anymore becuase you are living proof of all i know to be true about your systems faults.

Actual meaning: Instead of engaging in actual debate, I am simply going to declare myself in the right because I am too lazy to think through the argumentative process. In addition: I rule and you suck.

Your post posts are filled with these zingers. Hashing through two or three may be amusing, but I grow tired of how transparent and insubstantial anything you've posted here is.

Oh heck, maybe just one more:

well now im sure every american hates me. i dont hate you. i just disagree

Unwarranted assumption: We care enough about you to feel a strong an emotion as hate.

Here's your sign. Have a nice day.


M

 

[Famine]

Here's your sign.

Bloody 10 character rule

 

[wellyrn]

 

[wellyrn]

I guess i didn't know the "proper" way to debate American style. Here goes:

Your post posts are filled with these zingers. Hashing through two or three may be amusing, but I grow tired of how transparent and insubstantial anything you've posted here is.

Actual meaning: I am a hardcore necropheliac.

You are a lost cause because you are not interested in intelligent debate of any sort.

Actual meaning: I was dropped on my head at birth.


Still don't understand why im trying to get out of this *ahem* "debate"? Here is 1 more:

Still don't understand why im trying to get out of this *ahem* "debate"? Here is 1 more:

Actual meaning: wellyrn is stupid.

touche M-spec!

 

[87chevy]

^ what in the lords name did that prove? That wellyrn is only capable of childish comebacks? If it wasn't for us seeing eye to eye in my Global Suicide thread, you'd be right back to being Champion of Moronic Posters.

 

[Solid Fro]

Actual meaning: wellyrn is stupid.

Well, hot damn! Wellyrn finally said something truthful.

 

[87chevy]

^

 

[Carl.]

I always thought a "yo mama's so fat" thread would be a great addition to the opinons forum...

Keep it up guys. 👍

 

[wellyrn]

wow, i didn't expect this to go over your heads. Sorry if you thought I was seriously making childish insults. I was just being sarcastic. I hoped i might show you how silly you are acting. This is off topic but i will give an example so in the future you will know better:

"im not going to argue this anymore becuase you are living proof of all i know to be true about your systems faults."

Actual meaning: Instead of engaging in actual debate, I am simply going to declare myself in the right because I am too lazy to think through the argumentative process. In addition: I rule and you suck.

This is not debate. Considering he is trying to show with his post that i am not debating properly this is pretty rediculous. I never "declared myself right" or said "i rule and you suck", and assuming im lazy makes for 3 fallacious arguements!

Just to clarify this quote: What i mean is that the way you argue only supports my opinion of American society. You don't even realize your own mistakes because they are reinforced by politicians and media. Your assertion that i am not a neutral 3rd party is further evidence of this. The "If you are not with us you are against us" fallacy came from your president and is supported by your society which wants to simplify everything to good and bad, black and white terms. The way you attempt to refute my statement, using informal fallacy, only supports it.

 

[Duke]

Everything you see or hear only supports your opinion of us, because, as ///M-spec so correctly pointed out, you've already decided you're right and that's the end of the "discussion" for you. There is no debate because you don't know how to debate logically, and you are not interested in modifying your views in any way.

 

[wellyrn]

hmmmm... im tryping this, so speaking more slowly won't help... im running out of ideas.

... as ///M-spec so correctly pointed out, you've already decided you're right and that's the end of the "discussion" for you. There is no debate because you don't know how to debate logically, and you are not interested in modifying your views in any way.

I already explained how M-spec used an Ad Hominem as well as making 2 false assumptions. Informal fallacies are not accepted as intelligent debate. Repeating a fallacy does not make it any more legitimate.

If i wasn't interested in a debate i wouldn't still be here waiting for you guys to provide one. So feel free... but please stop repeating the same mistakes, my patience is limited.

 

[Duke]

Don't strain it any further on my account.

 

[///M-Spec]

I already explained how M-spec used an Ad Hominem as well as making 2 false assumptions.

Of course I did. Argumentum ad hominem is your only tool. If you are free to use it, why shouldn't I?

Look at this quote:

87 chevy and viper zero: you are not responding to me, you are responding to what your media tells you i think.

This is the cheapest, most cowardly way to refute someone's argument there is. Not only do you commit a fallacy of distraction by attacking 87Chevy and ViperZero directly, you make a claim their opinions are without merit because they are simply repeating what popular media is telling them instead of arriving at their viewpoints on their own. It'd be like if I dismissed you as a "mindless drone of liberal propaganda."

Shall we go on?

grow up america, you cant just kill everyone who disagrees with you.

America is immature and belligerent. Hasty generalization, an inductive fallacy and just plain silly. Gimme a break. Why not just reduce an entire nation of 290 million people to a cartoon? HINT: Because straw men are easier to attack.

Immature and belligerent American One: Whuada look it that Tex! Dem raghead moozlims done attacks us. Lets kill everyone one of dem!

Immature and belligerent American Two: Day ain't got no reason for that Elroy, let's get em! Yeehaw!

Yep. I'm sure Americans are just like that. I could go on, but there's no point dragging it out.

Informal fallacies are not accepted as intelligent debate. Repeating a fallacy does not make it any more legitimate.

Then maybe you should just stop now. You've 7 or 8 posts into it already.

If i wasn't interested in a debate i wouldn't still be here waiting for you guys to provide one.

It is my opinion you are just here to vent your frustrations. You are not interested in intelligently arguing your viewpoints, just letting everyone know they you have them. That's fine and nothing usual around here. Just don't bother thinking you're convincing anyone that you're right and when someone points out what you're doing, don't get all huffy about it.

If you want to debate whether or not America oversteps legal and moral bounderies with its foreign policy, go back and pickup ViperZero's post responding to the first one you made. And don't just ignore everyone he wrote, which is what you did the first time.

So feel free... but please stop repeating the same mistakes, my patience is limited.

Chortle. Whatever man. Anytime you get bored, just leave. Don't let the door hit you in the backside on the way out.

Just to clarify this quote: What i mean is that the way you argue only supports my opinion of American society.

Another gem. You don't like America, so you critisize it. Americans who have the audacity to refute your character indictment about their society only reinforce what you already believe. LOL.

You: America sucks.

Americans: No we don't.

You: HA! You don't believe me? That only goes to prove you suck.

This is classic.

You don't even realize your own mistakes because they are reinforced by politicians and media.

Snore. Yeah, yeah. Americans who don't hate their own country are deluded by the media, uh huh. God this line is getting old.

Your assertion that i am not a neutral 3rd party is further evidence of this.

You clearly aren't. You have an opinion. You have decided America's actions are wrong. Do you know what neutral means? Do you know what impartial means? Clearly not.

The "If you are not with us you are against us" fallacy came from your president and is supported by your society which wants to simplify everything to good and bad, black and white terms.

No one used this term in this discuss. No one even implied it. Try again.

The way you attempt to refute my statement, using informal fallacy, only supports it.

And the way you attempt to refute my statement, using informal fallacy after informal fallacy, only supports my opinion of you. Are we done now?



M

 

[87chevy]

obviously wellyrn has NO IDEA what neutral means. You have clearly taken a side, Anti-American. So how does this make you neutral??? Are you really that much of an idiot? It's obvious you posses some intelligence because you can effectively use a computer. But, man, you need to look up neutral in a dictionary. here i'll do it for you....

1 : not engaged on either side; specifically : not aligned with a political or ideological grouping

You have clearly engaged on a side.

 

[toler]

But, man, you need to look up nuetral in a dictionary.

so should you, the word is called NEUTRAL

 

[SS69]

Give your opinions, but please don't bash America too badly.

well then i guess that leaves me out. im an american and proud of it but i have a lot of negative opinions against the way things are being done.

 

[wellyrn]

This is starting to get interesting. Anyway, my actual point, before you slice and diced it, was that you don't really understand the issue because you aren't given the full picture. Not that you have no right to an opinion.

The point that im dismissing you? No, i WAS getting tired of them refuting arguements that i didn't make. I was getting the impression that they weren't even reading what i was writing because they have such an ingrained symbol-response mechanism.

Again, 87 chevy has piped up with assertion that i can't be neutral. I am against the conflict and the damage it causes. If Iraq were the invading force and there were Iraqis here trying to tell me America has no right to fight back within it's own borders I would be calling them tools of Jihadist propoganda. No im not anti-american.

well then i guess that leaves me out. im an american and proud of it but i have a lot of negative opinions against the way things are being done.

I suppose SS69 is Un-American?

I have nothing against Americans, i do have a BIG problem with US foreign policy. If you agree with the dangerous, jingoist neo-conservative agenda then I do have a problem with you. But Im guessing you don't really know what you are supporting.

 

[Delphic Reason]

well then i guess that leaves me out. im an american and proud of it but i have a lot of negative opinions against the way things are being done.

Very well said.... I love America, and that is exactly why I am so enraged, and frustrated with the current occupation of our country..... I am tired of hearing bold faced lies, over and over again..... We currently have thousands of troops risking their lives for reasons unkown to them..... Letter after letter is being sent home, asking their families for answers, that are not being supplied by the military, or our government..... We live in sad times, and it makes me sick, that our president would use the tragedy of 9/11 as an excuse to take over another country, that has no ties to 9/11 whatsoever.....

 

[toler]

^^ finally someone with open eyes posting in this thread

 

[Solid Fro]

Who's lying Sliviadrifter? Is Bush lying or is Kerry lying? Clinton, Hilary, Gore, CNN, Russia, Germany, and the UN must all be lying as well. They all said the same thing.

No one used 9/11 as a pretext for war in Iraq. We (the US and the Coalition) did not take over a country, we liberated it, and now we're giving it back to the rightful owners.

Please, Silviadrifter, tell us who used 9/11 as an excuse for Iraq? Give us facts, Silvia, or we can just ignore this just like the other Liberal crap out there.

I think some people are watching that fat guy's lie fest movie too much.

 

[Solid Lifters]

Lets get things straight, here. Iraq needed to be freed. Bush W was the man who finally did it. Iraq are just five days away of running things on their own. I wish them luck!

Jump all over the guy if you want to, but never think for a second what he did was wrong, or a lie.

 

[Famine]

No one used 9/11 as a pretext for war in Iraq. We (the US and the Coalition) did not take over a country, we liberated it, and now we're giving it back to the rightful owners.

Please, Silviadrifter, tell us who used 9/11 as an excuse for Iraq? Give us facts, Silvia, or we can just ignore this just like the other Liberal crap out there.

I think some people are watching that fat guy's lie fest movie too much.

Remind me what the original pretext was again. I seem to have forgotten it (or at least Tony Blair has never given us the actual reason). That's the problem with demanding facts - there are so few of them in the public domain.

Is anyone who questions the motives behind the war talking "Liberal crap" after watching Michael Moore? Are there only two viewpoints?

 

[Solid Fro]

You know why, Famine. I posted why twice and you commented on it as well. I want to know why Silviadrifter thinks Bush used 9/11 as a pretext for war in Iraq. He needs to back it up with facts.

Moore is Liberal crap. He won't admit it, but he knows he is.

 

[ledhed]

Actually Moore has said many times that he has a liberal adgenda. Nothing wrong with being anti war or with being a liberal for that matter.
The thing I have a problem with is all the garbage being presented as facts . Or just opinions being presented as facts. Then there are the outright lies. Its one thing to advance your position with a well reasoned argument but here all I get is a whatever it takes attitude that skips the facts and just invents whatever feels right to fit the situation.
Much like a Michael Moore movie. A cut and paste edited crapfest.

 

[Delphic Reason]

This makes me very sad.....

This is obviously not the place to have an intelligent discussion, about current events.....

The media has done too much damage, and a lot of people are fooled.....

I have been reading this thread since its creation, and it is obvious that there can be no "Discussion", only name calling.....

If anyone wants to have an intelligent conversation about this, PM me.... Otherwise, I am done posting in this thread.....

You can infer from that, what you will (as I'm sure you will)....

 

[Zrow]

Because nobody has the right to a differing opinion, right Silviadrifter? I guess all who disagree with you are mindless American drones who inhale news reports and can't think for themselves. Thanks for clearing that up.