America - The Official Thread

[McLaren]

But as a society, America HAS made great progress - enough so that Systemic Racism™ is not a real thing. This is evidenced in the fact that nobody (yourself included) can point out irrefutable proof of it's existence. It's basically Bigfoot at this point, being easier to disprove than it is to PROVE. So continue to believe in Bigfoot while I add randOm caPs to mY writiNG. 😉

The central figurehead of the right has even tried to side-step it be claiming systemic racism is everywhere....

When Woodward asked Trump whether he thinks there is “systemic or institutional racism in this country,” the president replied:
“Well, I think there is everywhere. I think probably less here than most places. Or less here than many places.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/09/11/i-dont-feel-that-all-trump-scoffs-white-privilege-woodward-book/

 

[Joey D]

But as a society, America HAS made great progress - enough so that Systemic Racism™ is not a real thing. This is evidenced in the fact that nobody (yourself included) can point out irrefutable proof of it's existence.

You've provided no evidence to show that systematic racism doesn't exist. So I ask, can you prove that it doesn't exist since you're making that claim? Like actual peer-reviewed research based on statistics and data and not some opinion-based website or YouTube channel?

 

[Imari]

Slavery is real and it did happen. Racial discrimination was real, and it WAS widespread in use. Nobody denies these facts.

But as a society, America HAS made great progress - enough so that Systemic Racism™ is not a real thing. This is evidenced in the fact that nobody (yourself included) can point out irrefutable proof of it's existence. It's basically Bigfoot at this point, being easier to disprove than it is to PROVE. So continue to believe in Bigfoot while I add randOm caPs to mY writiNG. 😉

I'm not even making the attempt to offer evidence until we establish what you'll actually accept as evidence.

So far we've got that you won't accept anything that isn't a law as of 25/11/2021, which seems like such a bonkers way of viewing how a society works that I have real doubts that you'd actually accept even an example of a law that exists. It feels more like you're just tailoring the goalposts so that you can say that nothing fits through, rather than actually attempting to question and understand the society that you're a part of.

These laws and statutes that you want to see, must they include race explicitly like the anti-miscegenation laws? Or would you accept laws that are implicitly racist, like gerrymandered districts?

As far as believing in Bigfoot, what I see is the exact same things that you see. I suspect that the difference is the conclusions that we draw from the same information, which is why I'm trying to get you to define clearly what counts as evidence for you. It's easy to come to any conclusion you want if you throw away all the evidence that would count against it, so it's worth making sure we're both playing with the same deck of cards before making radical accusations.

 

[UKMikey]

But as a society, America HAS made great progress - enough so that Systemic Racism™ is not a real thing. This is evidenced in the fact that nobody (yourself included) can point out irrefutable proof of it's existence. It's basically Bigfoot at this point, being easier to disprove than it is to PROVE. So continue to believe in Bigfoot while I add randOm caPs to mY writiNG. 😉

25 simple charts to show friends and family who aren't convinced racism is still a problem in America

Research has extensively documented the differences between the Black and white experience in the US, from wealth and education to incarceration.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[Scaff]

Slavery is real and it did happen. Racial discrimination was real, and it WAS widespread in use. Nobody denies these facts.

But as a society, America HAS made great progress - enough so that Systemic Racism™ is not a real thing. This is evidenced in the fact that nobody (yourself included) can point out irrefutable proof of it's existence. It's basically Bigfoot at this point, being easier to disprove than it is to PROVE. So continue to believe in Bigfoot while I add randOm caPs to mY writiNG. 😉

Not only has this been explained to you, but evidence to show it's real has also been shown.

That you are now willfully ignoring it is quite disturbing behaviour.


Take (again) the HOLC act, which did damage to African American communities across the US. Yes the act itself was repealed, but the damage the act caused was never fixed or corrected. Damage on such a scale that it still impacts at a socioeconomic level on African American communities to this day.

An example of how existing laws can be used to discriminate is in the current round of gerrymandering we have, which is being used in a number of cases to directly target the voting impact of non-whites.

 

[AZpocalypse]

✌️"evidence"✌️ 🤣🤣🤣 I don't think that word means what you think it means 🤔

 

[Scaff]

✌️"evidence"✌️ 🤣🤣🤣 I don't think that word means what you think it means 🤔

I think that failing exists on your part, given that you have offered none to date.

Other members have provided plenty, and you have failed to discuss or address it.

 

[AZpocalypse]

Neat. Statistics are fine and dandy, but they are only good at showing WHAT happened, not WHY it happened.

I have eaten 137 more sandwiches than the average black male. Does that mean sandwiches are racist? I doubt it. It's probably because I'm a fat bastard that loves me some sammiches.

Good try, though! Keep digging! I'm sure there MUST BE SOME PROOF of Systemic Racism™! Jit might be chilling on a UFO with Bigfoot and Nessie! 🤡👉👌

 

[UKMikey]

It's easy to come to any conclusion you want if you throw away all the evidence that would count against it, so it's worth making sure we're both playing with the same deck of cards before making radical accusations.

Have you seen enough now, @Imari? The post above this is hardly any kind of disproof or counterargument, to say nothing of his general trollish attitude towards debate.

 

[Scaff]

View attachment 1095940

Neat. Statistics are fine and dandy, but they are only good at showing WHAT happened, not WHY it happened.

I have eaten 137 more sandwiches than the average black male. Does that mean sandwiches are racist? I doubt it. It's probably because I'm a fat bastard that loves me some sammiches.

Good try, though! Keep digging! I'm sure there MUST BE SOME PROOF of Systemic Racism™! Jit might be chilling on a UFO with Bigfoot and Nessie! 🤡👉👌

And you've not offered your explanation for it?

So let's start with that.

Given this one a go

Now you do need to explain and account for the fact that on average white school districts get £2.26k per student more than non-white districts (in comparison to the national average), oh and its not just down to a district being poor either. As poor white districts get $150 less than the national average, which is still significantly more than the average non-white district.

 

[UKMikey]

And you've not offered your explanation for it?

So let's start with that.

I suspect that was his idea of an explanation... calling other people clowns for bringing evidence to a debate, then acting like a stand up comedian instead of offering any of his own.

 

[UKMikey]

Tempting though it is to respond in kind, I'd prefer to let the documented facts speak for themselves.

Opinion | There’s overwhelming evidence that the criminal justice system is racist. Here’s the proof.

Even controlling for crime rates, class and income, racial bias infects every nook and cranny of our courts, prisons, jails and police stations.

web.archive.org

The above WaPo article may be labelled "opinion" but the dozens of links to related studies in the text aren't.

Europe PMC

Europe PMC is an archive of life sciences journal literature.

europepmc.org

Error - Cookies Turned Off

onlinelibrary.wiley.com

 

[AZpocalypse]

I'm not even making the attempt to offer evidence until we establish what you'll actually accept as evidence.

So far we've got that you won't accept anything that isn't a law as of 25/11/2021, which seems like such a bonkers way of viewing how a society works that I have real doubts that you'd actually accept even an example of a law that exists. It feels more like you're just tailoring the goalposts so that you can say that nothing fits through, rather than actually attempting to question and understand the society that you're a part of.

These laws and statutes that you want to see, must they include race explicitly like the anti-miscegenation laws? Or would you accept laws that are implicitly racist, like gerrymandered districts?

As far as believing in Bigfoot, what I see is the exact same things that you see. I suspect that the difference is the conclusions that we draw from the same information, which is why I'm trying to get you to define clearly what counts as evidence for you. It's easy to come to any conclusion you want if you throw away all the evidence that would count against it, so it's worth making sure we're both playing with the same deck of cards before making radical accusations.

My point was that in America, it is illegal for your government, your employer, your bank or your hospital (and many other institutions) to discriminate against you. Period. And if they do, you can slap them with a lawsuit. So why would people want to adopt and maintain racist behavior, when it's socially unacceptable, morally repugnant and in the case of corporations and government institutions, it's illegal!? There is simply no upside to it. It's not profitable, therefore, it's not worth it. It doesn't exist.

However, what you fail to realize is that whether or not it exists does not matter to those who are pushing for Racism™, because Racism™ = Profit. Systemic Racism™ by definition is vague, non-specific and impossible to pinpoint. Yet it's also purposeful, all-encompassing and is so embedded in the fabric of society that the only way to get rid of it is to completely dismantle everything? 🤣🤣🤣

So what is the answer? Education!

And you've not offered your explanation for it?

So let's start with that.

Given this one a go


View attachment 1095943

Now you do need to explain and account for the fact that on average white school districts get £2.26k per student more than non-white districts (in comparison to the national average), oh and its not just down to a district being poor either. As poor white districts get $150 less than the national average, which is still significantly more than the average non-white districts. ffirmative Action™ has been part of American education for decades. Ther mo moo

And you've not offered your explanation for it?

So let's start with that.

Given this one a go

View attachment 1095943

Now you do need to explain and account for the fact that on average white school districts get £2.26k per student more than non-white districts (in comparison to the national average), oh and its not just down to a district being poor either. As poor white districts get $150 less than the national average, which is still significantly more than the average non-white district.

Good luck untying that knot! Affirmative Action™ has been part of the American education system for decades. Great progress has been made in the name of equity, to the detriment of children's education. Standards have been lowered for children of certain races and raised for others. A black student has a better chance of getting in to a university than an equally qualified white student. Asian students with higher test scores have more difficulty getting admitted than white or minority students with lower test grades. The American education system is, after all, where the idea of "equity over equality" was developed. So good luck finding answers there! 🤣🤣🤣

You've provided no evidence to show that systematic racism doesn't exist. So I ask, can you prove that it doesn't exist since you're making that claim? Like actual peer-reviewed research based on statistics and data and not some opinion-based website or YouTube channel?

Good question. How does one prove what doesn't exist? It's much more practical to prove what does exist. Keep searching for Bigfoot. Everyone ssys it's real, so it HAS to be...🤔

 

[UKMikey]

It's basically Bigfoot at this point, being easier to disprove than it is to PROVE.

How does one prove what doesn't exist? It's much more practical to prove what does exist.

At this point, given the overwhelming amount of evidence that has been brought to the table only to be outright ignored? I'd say this is more like trying to convince a flat earther that the world is round than confirming the existence of "Bigfoot".

 

[AZpocalypse]

I'm not even making the attempt to offer evidence until we establish what you'll actually accept as evidence.

So far we've got that you won't accept anything that isn't a law as of 25/11/2021, which seems like such a bonkers way of viewing how a society works that I have real doubts that you'd actually accept even an example of a law that exists. It feels more like you're just tailoring the goalposts so that you can say that nothing fits through, rather than actually attempting to question and understand the society that you're a part of.

These laws and statutes that you want to see, must they include race explicitly like the anti-miscegenation laws? Or would you accept laws that are implicitly racist, like gerrymandered districts?

As far as believing in Bigfoot, what I see is the exact same things that you see. I suspect that the difference is the conclusions that we draw from the same information, which is why I'm trying to get you to define clearly what counts as evidence for you. It's easy to come to any conclusion you want if you throw away all the evidence that would count against it, so it's worth making sure we're both playing with the same deck of cards before making radical accusations.

A lot of the problem is that America already HAS equality of opportunity - you have the same opportunities as others, but how well you do is proportional to how hard you work, which is up to you.

What people WANT is equality of outcome, which is insane and happens to be a core tenant of socialism. In equality of outcome, what matters is that you get paid the same as everyone else that does your job, whether or not you work hard or do your job well. This is why there is a big push for EQUITY instead of EQUALITY. We already have equality in the eyes of the law.

 

[Scaff]

My point was that in America, it is illegal for your government, your employer, your bank or your hospital (and many other institutions) to discriminate against you. Period. And if they do, you can slap them with a lawsuit.

So being illegal stops things occurring?

So why would people want to adopt and maintain racist behavior, when it's socially unacceptable, morally repugnant and in the case of corporations and government institutions, it's illegal!? There is simply no upside to it. It's not profitable, therefore, it's not worth it. It doesn't exist.

And yet people do adopt, maintain and would like it to be socially acceptable.

The last administration ran on a platform that use it as part of it's core belief structure!

However, what you fail to realize is that whether or not it exists does not matter to those who are pushing for Racism™, because Racism™ = Profit. Systemic Racism™ by definition is vague, non-specific and impossible to pinpoint. Yet it's also purposeful, all-encompassing and is so embedded in the fabric of society that the only way to get rid of it is to completely dismantle everything? 🤣🤣🤣

So we start getting to the root of your objection.

Fixing this might impact me, so I don't want to do it.

So what is the answer? Education!

That depends entirely in what you chose to educate on. You promoted PragerU as a source of information, yet the bias (and racist views) they hold has been demonstrated and left unaddressed by yourself, just as you have failed to address the question I asked you.

 

[AZpocalypse]

The central figurehead of the right has even tried to side-step it be claiming systemic racism is everywhere....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/09/11/i-dont-feel-that-all-trump-scoffs-white-privilege-woodward-book/

I was unaware that the right had a central figurehead! Is that like being the grand cyclops of the left? 🤔

 

[McLaren]

A lot of the problem is that America already HAS equality of opportunity - you have the same opportunities as others, but how well you do is proportional to how hard you work, which is up to you.

Except that's not 100% true. Many people are awarded the same opportunities, but not the same effort to achieve equal outcomes. 2 people can put in the same effort of work to achieve the same goal, yet 1 gets forced to work even harder for reasons they can not control. By the logic of "how well you do is proportional to how hard you work", that person should be even more successful, and yet, they usually aren't.

I was unaware that the right had a central figurehead! Is that like being the grand cyclops of the left? 🤔

With all the right-wing toilet paper you've claimed to read, this is being hilariously obtuse.

 

[Scaff]

A lot of the problem is that America already HAS equality of opportunity - you have the same opportunities as others, but how well you do is proportional to how hard you work, which is up to you.

No it doesn't.

That has been clearly demonstrated by the difference in funding for school places dependent on if you live in a white or non-white district. If you are over $2k per pupil down on funding you do not have equality of opportunity at all.

What people WANT is equality of outcome, which is insane and happens to be a core tenant of socialism.

Nope it's not. Some forms of socialism advocate for equity, but it's by no means a universal tenant of socialism at all. Take Democratic Socialism as an example (which most on the right - including PragerU forget was George Orwell's political affiliation), it doesn't include equity of outcome in its views.

Even Marxism doesn't advocate for equality of outcome (as that's not what "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" means at all), despite what some right-wing pundits try and claim.

On a hilarious side note, 2/3rds of Americans surveyed thought Marx's quote "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" was actually from the constitution. Which neatly encapsulates just how little the average American knows about either European Socialism or the US Constitution.

Columbia Law Survey

In equality of outcome, what matters is that you get paid the same as everyone else that does your job, whether or not you work hard or do your job well. This is why there is a big push for EQUITY instead of EQUALITY. We already have equality in the eyes of the law.

But not in the application of the law, as has already been shown and hand-waved away by yourself.

 

[AZpocalypse]

So being illegal stops things occurring?



And yet people do adopt, maintain and would like it to be socially acceptable.

The last administration ran on a platform that use it as part of it's core belief structure!


So we start getting to the roiot of yoru objection.

Fixing this might impact me, so I don't want to do it.




That depends entirely in what you chose to educate on. You promoted PragerU as a source of information, yet the bias (and racist views) they hold has been demonstrated and left unaddressed by yourself, just as you have failed to address the question I asked you.

The decision is being made for us, but not without pushback. We were on the right track. It used to be taught that we had slavery, but abolished it. We had systemic racism, but we ended segregation. And that people should not be measured by the color of their skin, but by their strength of character.

The 1619 project and Critical Race Theory are their answer. History is being rewritten to fit a narrative. That narrative is that racism was the bedrock upon which America was founded on, and is deeply ingrained in everything we do, whether we know it or not. It teaches white kids that being white makes them racists by default, and that they owe a debt for what white people did in the past. It teaches black kids and other minorities that they will never do as well as white people because the color of their skin makes them victims of Systemic Racism™. America isn't racist. Racism™ is being thrust upon America.

 

[Scaff]

The decision is being made for us, but not without pushback. We were on the right track. It used to be taught that we had slavery, but abolished it. We had systemic racism, but we ended segregation. And that people should not be measured by the color of their skin, but by their strength of character.

The 1619 project and Critical Race Theory are their answer. History is being rewritten to fit a narrative. That narrative is that racism was the bedrock upon which America was founded on, and is deeply ingrained in everything we do, whether we know it or not. It teaches white kids that being white makes them racists by default, and that they owe a debt for what white people did in the past. It teaches black kids and other minorities that they will never do as well as white people because the color of their skin makes them victims of Systemic Racism™. America isn't racist. Racism™ is being thrust upon America.

That's not what either CRT or the 1619 project do at all (and you still do have systemic racism - you just want to ignore it and claim its all gone away rather than actually discuss it).

I mean it's what Fox and the morons over at Prager want people to think it is, but that doesn't make it true at all.

What CRT and 1619 (and similar projects) want is for Slavery, and what it lead to and the impact it still has to this day, to be openly discussed, regardless of if it's comfortable or not, and yes it is an integral part of the origins of the US, in exactly the same way that Colonialism is an integral part of the history of Europe. Both should be discussed openly, regardless of if it makes anyone feel uncomfortable, and that's not re-writing history.

 

[AZpocalypse]

No it doesn't.

That has been clearly demonstrated by the difference in funding for school places dependent on if you live in a white or non-white district. If you are over $2k per pupil down on funding you do not have equality of opportunity at all.

Nope it's not. Some forms of socialism advocate for equity, but it's by no means a universal tenant of socialism at all. Take Democratic Socialism as an example (which most on the right - including PragerU forget was George Orwell's political affiliation), it doesn't include equity of outcome in its views.

Even Marxism doesn't advocate for equality of outcome (as that's not what "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" means at all), despite what some right-wing pundits try and claim.

On a hilarious side note, 2/3rds of Americans surveyed thought Marx's quote "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" was actually from the constitution. Which neatly encapsulates just how little the average American knows about either European Socialism or the US Constitution.

Columbia Law Survey

But not in the application of the law, as has already been shown and hand-waved away by yoursela

That's not what either CRT or the 1619 project do at all (and you still do have systemic racism - you just want to ignore it and claim its all gone away rather than actually discuss it).

I mean it's what Fox and the morons over at Prager want people to think it is, but that doesn't make it true at all.

You are correct. We do still have Systemic Racism™. It's called Affirmative Action. 😉

 

[Scaff]

You are correct. We do still have Systemic Racism™. It's called Affirmative Action. 😉

Nope.

At this point it's become quite clear that you have no intention of having a good faith discussion on this subject, and certainly have no intention of answering direct questions that have been asked of you.

 

[Liquid]

Trademarking™ words you don't like (mushrooms™, chart music™, England national football team™) isn't a personality.

 

[Imari]

My point was that in America, it is illegal for your government, your employer, your bank or your hospital (and many other institutions) to discriminate against you. Period.

Right. And if those were the only parts that made up a society, and everyone always followed the rules all the time you'd be absolutely correct.

A lot of the problem is that America already HAS equality of opportunity - you have the same opportunities as others, but how well you do is proportional to how hard you work, which is up to you.

That's not entirely true. All other things being equal, working harder should give better outcomes. But all other things are not equal, I can be the hardest working guy at the company but if it gets bought out by the Chinese who then fire us all it means absolutely nothing.

There's any number of legitimate things that can create inequality by pure random luck, and that's before we even get into the idea that who your parents are and where you're brought up has a large effect that is completely out of your control. If you think everyone starts out equal, you're absolutely wrong.

And unfortunately, the way that society is designed at the moment is that being successful makes it easier to be more successful. It's much easier to make money if you have a whole lot of money already than if you're poor. That means if you get hit with bad luck early, or at birth, then it's significantly harder to even get into the same game as everyone else.

What people WANT is equality of outcome, which is insane and happens to be a core tenant of socialism. In equality of outcome, what matters is that you get paid the same as everyone else that does your job, whether or not you work hard or do your job well. This is why there is a big push for EQUITY instead of EQUALITY. We already have equality in the eyes of the law.

You don't understand what people are asking for. They're not asking for equality of outcome as you describe it. They're actually asking for what you described above, how well you do being proportional to how hard you work, to actually be more of the case in real life. At the moment that's not how it works for a lot of people for things that are completely beyond their control.

Wanting success to be actually proportional to work and skill is not insane or socialism, and it's something that you seem to think is pretty good. What you don't seem to be able to see is that it's not the case for quite a lot of people, both at the top and the bottom of "success".

 

[Famine]

The idea that something isn't possible if it isn't enshrined in law, and is impossible if there are laws against it, is quite some position to take.

Taken for effect, of course, but still.

 

[UKMikey]

Trademarking™ words you don't like (mushrooms™, chart music™, England national football team™) isn't a personality.

Maybe it counts as a character trait...

 

[McLaren]

History is being rewritten to fit a narrative.

You literally follow a right-wing outlet that tried to paint Robert E. Lee as a man who did nothing wrong in regards to black people. Prager U routinely tries to rewrite what racism, fascism, climate change, LGTBQ, the civil war, black American issues, immigration, and so forth are in world history so that it can not-so-subtly promote the narrative that white people haven't really done anything bad at all, and it's the youth's, blacks', liberals', Europeans', basically anyone else' fault for the issues in the world.

One of Dennis Prager's biggest attempts at rewriting history is that it's the left's fault you can't say the n-word in America. That's been a huge taboo for decades & even the majority of the right knows better than to prop the notion that they're completely fine with folks saying it.

 

[Northstar]

This is evidenced in the fact that nobody (yourself included) can point out irrefutable proof of it's existence. It's basically Bigfoot at this point, being easier to disprove than it is to PROVE. So continue to believe in Bigfoot while I add randOm caPs to mY writiNG. 😉

Spend 5 minutes looking at the resources available to public schools in wealthier areas (usually predominantly white) and compare them to what poorer schools have at their disposal and you'll see all the proof you need. I know of schools that give students new ipads every year, I also know of schools that are limited to a single computer lab featuring computers that were obsolete when they got them 10 years ago.

Granted this is more of a class issue, but it seems a little too convenient that the poorest school districts are the ones with the highest population of minorities.

 

[Joey D]

🤡👉👌

Ok I know you're not interested in having an actual discussion, but this is a bit of a "hold up" thing. You do realize this series of emojis means you want to have sex with a clown, right?