America - The Official Thread

[Keef]

The biggest misconception in all of this, is that both sides of the isle “actually” want to solve the problem. Illegal immigration is beneficial to both parties. Although, like I said a year or more ago in this thread, it’s “advantage-democrats” right now….because them letting illegals in by the droves, insures a healthy voting base for years to come. The Dems are in charge right now…and it’s SMART for them to allow this. Fair game.



For perspective, here’s a shot of a coyote outpost that I’ve photographed many times over the past 8 years since I moved down to San Diego

View attachment 1323765


View attachment 1323766


View attachment 1323767




In my riding/surfing group. There’s a few Cops, FBI dudes, Airforce and Marines higher-ups as well as a few border patrol agents (from both sides of the border, mind you).

I asked a few of them last year about this particular post…and they all said they weren’t worried about it, and were well aware of this one, and many other like it. Basically, anyone who comes to a post that is tho hard to get to, is generally in this country for the right reasons.

But rather, it’s recent…within the last 2-3 years, that the border has gotten really bad, and all of the bad things that come with illegal immigration, has showed itself in spades in inner cities across America.

Whats broken is nothing new. It’s our immigration system. And like many countries that Socialists like to tote as “societal havens”, I too agree that immigration to America should be “merit-based”, to a ‘liberal’ extent. As someone that’s married to an immigrant, 10 years seems too long for someone to earn status in the United States. But as most Asian immigrants will tell you, the blatant legalization of illegal border crossings, cheapens what they had to go through. Same could said for how the Blacks, and Mexican immigrants - (-from 2-3 generations ago) feel too.









….most importantly, it is an election year after all, so let’s not pretend like all of the respective sides of illegal immigration aren’t getting ramped up by accident

Migrant water station? Looks like one for hikers to me. There isn't any trash anywhere. It's clean. I guess I have to trust a local but that looks like a water station set up by hikers for hikers and whoever is using it is packing out what they pack in.

 

[TexRex]

isle

 

[Yard_Sale]

Migrant water station? Looks like one for hikers to me. There isn't any trash anywhere. It's clean. I guess I have to trust a local but that looks like a water station set up by hikers for hikers and whoever is using it is packing out what they pack in.

Definitely not a hiking station.

The Bible verses on note pads in Spanish are a dead-giveaway. As are the canned goods. As are the flannel jackets from Costco. And the fact that this particular outpost is probably 25 miles as a crow flies from the border…but 4700’ in elevation….And border patrol agents from both America and Mexico have said it’s legit. And the fact that I’ve seen it in different “states of stock” over the past 8 years.


This coyote camp is hard to get to by dirt bike, I could only imagine how hard it is to get to by foot

 

[Joey D]

Illegal immigration is beneficial to both parties. Although, like I said a year or more ago in this thread, it’s “advantage-democrats” right now….because them letting illegals in by the droves, insures a healthy voting base for years to come. The Dems are in charge right now…and it’s SMART for them to allow this. Fair game.

Illegal immigrants can't vote at the federal level. Hell, immigrants can't vote in federal elections unless they become citizens. I know Fox News and other conservative media outlets parrot that illegals coming in help the Democrats, but when they can't even register to vote, I'm not sure how that benefits a politician.

 

[Yard_Sale]

Illegal immigrants can't vote at the federal level. Hell, immigrants can't vote in federal elections unless they become citizens. I know Fox News and other conservative media outlets parrot that illegals coming in help the Democrats, but when they can't even register to vote, I'm not sure how that benefits a politician.
[/QUOTE


Watch what my home state of California tries to do with it. Newsom just made it “officially legal” for them to get California healthcare benefits. So….

Newsom officially made it “legal” for illegals to enroll in state run medical and social benefits. Voting rights is the next logical step.


At least, that’s what I would do if I was in his political shoes

 

[McLaren]

The biggest misconception in all of this, is that both sides of the isle “actually” want to solve the problem. Illegal immigration is beneficial to both parties. Although, like I said a year or more ago in this thread, it’s “advantage-democrats” right now….because them letting illegals in by the droves, insures a healthy voting base for years to come. The Dems are in charge right now…and it’s SMART for them to allow this. Fair game.

Definitely aren't being driven to vote Democrat when the Republican Party has been vilifying them....

In reality:

On immigration policy issues, perhaps unsurprisingly, Hispanic voters are further to the left than the general electorate. In the 2020 CES, Hispanic voters were 14 points more likely than the general electorate to support giving legal status to immigrants who have held jobs and not been convicted of a crime. They were also less likely to support increasing border security measures like hiring more border patrol officers and building a wall than the general electorate, and less supportive of measures to curb legal immigration. Their stances on immigration questions differed from the general electorate by 9 to 13 points, showing that the group was significantly more liberal. The differences were similar in 2022.


In 2016, when Trump ran a campaign focused on anti-immigration policies, he lost Hispanic voters to the Democratic nominee, Hillary Clinton, two to one. But his anti-immigration rhetoric didn't turn out a record wave of Hispanic voters to vote against him and become solidly loyal Democrats, as some had predicted. Instead, his base of support among the group was on par with or even better than that shown for previous nominees Sen. Mitt Romney and Sen. John McCain. That led observers to conclude that a significant and steady minority of Hispanic voters, around a third, were probably conservative and unlikely to abandon Republicans.

In 2020, Trump made gains among Hispanic voters. Immigration was a less important issue that year, when voters were much more focused on COVID-19 and the economic wreckage surrounding the pandemic. Biden won the group overall, 59 percent to 38 percent, but Trump made gains among a specific group: those without college degrees.

Hispanic voters were about 9 points more likely than the general electorate to support increasing the Environmental Protection Agency's regulatory powers, according to the 2020 CES data. They were also more supportive than the general electorate of giving the EPA the power to regulate carbon, and requiring that states use a minimum amount of renewable energy, by 9 and 8 points, respectively. The 2022 numbers were similar.

One area that did stand out was policies related to health care access. Hispanics in 2020 were more likely to support expanding Medicare to cover all Americans than the general electorate was by 14 points, and they were more likely to support lowering the age for Medicare eligibility from 65 to 50 by the same margin.

Ultimately, Hispanic voters have historically been less likely to turn out than other demographic groups, and a substantial portion of them may once again be inclined to sit on the sidelines unless something strongly motivates them to vote.

Analysis from Equis Research showed that, in 2022, Hispanic voters, like most voters, were concerned about the economy and cost of living, and that those who rated that as their top concern were more likely to support Republican candidates.

What issues will matter most to Hispanic voters in 2024?

What Hispanic voters think on the issues, according to the Cooperative Election Study.

abcnews.go.com

In short, it's not a case of, "We let in Hispanics for easy votes". This demographic has always been a split group b/c for those that prioritize Immigration, Environment, & Medical for all (things Dems push heavily for regardless of Hispanics), there are many who remain focused on other issues (that Republicans lead, also regardless of Hispanics). For many that are devoutly religious, they have the ability to be single-issue voters who will more than likely support Republican's push for anti-abortion.

 

[Yard_Sale]

Definitely aren't being driven to vote Democrat when the Republican Party has been vilifying them....

In reality:

What issues will matter most to Hispanic voters in 2024?

What Hispanic voters think on the issues, according to the Cooperative Election Study.

abcnews.go.com

In short, it's not a case of, "We let in Hispanics for easy votes". This demographic has always been a split group b/c for those that prioritize Immigration, Environment, & Medical for all (things Dems push heavily for regardless of Hispanics), there are many who remain focused on other issues (that Republicans lead, also regardless of Hispanics). For many that are devoutly religious, they have the ability to be single-issue voters who will more than likely support Republican's push for anti-abortion.

Come on. You’re smarter than that. They will 90% vote democrat, just like the Mexicans that preceded them did before…but just now are starting to turn.


The only “Hispanics” you have to worry about predictably voting Republican, are the Cubans. Which is why they arent allowed in

 

[McLaren]

Come on. You’re smarter than that. They will 90% vote democrat, just like the Mexicans that preceded them did before…but just now are starting to turn.


The only “Hispanics” you have to worry about predictably voting Republican, are the Cubans. Which is why they arent allowed in

I literally posted a detailed breakdown of how Hispanics will vote both parties and you continue to gargle Fox speaking points.

 

[Joey D]

Newsom officially made it “legal” for illegals to enroll in state run medical and social benefits. Voting rights is the next logical step.


At least, that’s what I would do if I was in his political shoes

Municipalities and states are allowed to at some degree, but a federal law would need to change for Congressional and Presidential elections. Seems like it's a case of state's rights, which is fine.

 

[TexRex]

insures

Didn't see this until it was quoted by another, as I stopped and laughed at "isle" and didn't bother to keep reading on, but that's also incorrect.

 

[Yard_Sale]

I literally posted a detailed breakdown of how Hispanics will vote both parties and you continue to gargle Fox speaking points.

Not garbage. I actually work in these sort of neighborhoods for living. I know exactly how the “voting majority” of them think. As a California Republican, I have no dog in the fight either way. California is as blue as it gets.

Municipalities and states are allowed to at some degree, but a federal law would need to change for Congressional and Presidential elections. Seems like it's a case of state's rights, which is fine.

I agree. States rights. That’s why I’ll be curious to see how the different issue’s pertaining to Texas, Arizona and California play out

 

[McLaren]

Not garbage. I actually work in these sort of neighborhoods for living. I know exactly how the “voting majority” of them think.

Texas resident, 30 years. Met & worked with a lot of Hispanics who have voted both parties over the exact issues the article talked about.

Please kindly piss off with your attempt to once again try, "Actually, my experience in my area gets to trump all other arguments".

 

[TexRex]

issue’s

MAKE APOSTROPHE'S GREAT AGAIN

 

[Keef]

Definitely not a hiking station.

The Bible verses on note pads in Spanish are a dead-giveaway. As are the canned goods. As are the flannel jackets from Costco. And the fact that this particular outpost is probably 25 miles as a crow flies from the border…but 4700’ in elevation….And border patrol agents from both America and Mexico have said it’s legit. And the fact that I’ve seen it in different “states of stock” over the past 8 years.


This coyote camp is hard to get to by dirt bike, I could only imagine how hard it is to get to by foot

So why is it there? Can't you just take the stuff? Somebody with money is buying that and leaving it there, fascilitating migrants. Call it goodwill but it seems more like some sort of conspiracy to me. Just take it, free stuff for you.

 

[Yard_Sale]

Texas resident, 30 years. Met & worked with a lot of Hispanics who have voted both parties over the exact issues the article talked about.

Please kindly piss off with your attempt to once again try, "Actually, my experience in my area gets to trump all other arguments".

🙄


Picture a city that’s twice as liberal as San Antonio, twice as big, with twice the size of Hispanic population that’s been firmly engrained into the culture, just like San Antonio. The council man that serves my current assignment is Kevin De Leon. How he presents himself in public, and how he is behind closed doors are 2 different people. But he’s a politician, and politics is his career…so I can’t fault him for anything.

While I respect that you have “met and work with a lot of Hispanics” (😂), like I said, I actually do this stuff for a living, and have watched these neighborhoods change over the course of 20 years. Watts, The Jungle, Lennox, Compton, Inglewood, El Sereno, Lincoln Heights, Boyle Heights…you name it. It has been interesting watching these neighborhoods change over the years as the combination of gentrification and illegal immigration have taken hold. The older-school residents of these communities are “starting” (with a lower-case ‘S’) to push back.

Like I said, with a clear lens, but no dog in the fight, I’ll be curious to see how the politics of this all unfolds. FWIW…my money is on the white liberals moving into these areas and getting what THEY want. I mean…that’s exactly what happened to the Dodger Stadium/Sunset district about 15 years ago. As well as Culver City and West South Central Los Angeles about 10 years ago. Not to mention, the historical Hispanic neighborhoods where I live in San Diego are shrinking year by year - overran by Caucasian hipsters. But ya’ know…my eyes might deceive me and I’m in need of glasses 😂

So why is it there? Can't you just take the stuff? Somebody with money is buying that and leaving it there, fascilitating migrants. Call it goodwill but it seems more like some sort of conspiracy to me. Just take it, free stuff for you.

The answer you seek, is in the comment you posted my friend 👍🏼

 

[eran0004]

But as most Asian immigrants will tell you, the blatant legalization of illegal border crossings, cheapens what they had to go through.

1. It’s not illegal if it’s legalised.

2. “I suffered, so you should suffer too” is not reasonable.

 

[McLaren]

While I respect that you have “met and work with a lot of Hispanics” (😂), like I said, I actually do this stuff for a living, and have watched these neighborhoods change over the course of 20 years. Watts, The Jungle, Lennox, Compton, Inglewood, El Sereno, Lincoln Heights, Boyle Heights…you name it. It has been interesting watching these neighborhoods change over the years as the combination of gentrification and illegal immigration have taken hold. The older-school residents of these communities are “starting” (with a lower-case ‘S’) to push back.

Personal anecdote of Southern California does not = rest of America. Hispanics in Texas are a split vote.

The fact you are once again, deciding my own experience with Hispanic voters as well as an article that covers nationwide Hispanic concerns does not have merit yet yours does, shows you are not worth further discussion. 🙄

 

[Yard_Sale]

Personal anecdote of Southern California does not = rest of America. Hispanics in Texas are a split vote.

The fact you are once again, deciding my own experience with Hispanic voters as well as an article that covers nationwide Hispanic concerns does not have merit yet yours does, shows you are not worth further discussion. 🙄

100% agree and I apologize. I wouldn’t say the Hispanic vote is spilt down the middle in Texas, but I would assume the main reason there a palatable Republican vote amongst the Hispanics in Arizona and Texas, is by virtue of those states being red, and the ranching industry.

Here, you’re starting to see a change in opinion amongst the Mexicans in regards to illegal immigration because the Central Americans inevitably end up in their neighborhoods, and they are beginning to undercut them in the labor market, as well as slicing into the welfare resources that they depend on. Same with the blacks in that regard too. If California was even a little more centrist in their politics, I’m sure at least part of the perception illegal immigration would have changed some time ago, and be more reminiscent of Texas. But predictably, people only know what politicians tell them, and no one truly cares about anything, until it affects them personally.

I do find the politics of this fascinating. I think it’s brilliant what the Democrats are doing in an attempt to change the voting demographics in traditionally red states. And it’s super smart what Texas is doing by sending the immigrants to Blue cities, far removed from Mexico, to make it personal for those constituents. I mean, Texas staying the course in sending illegals around the country, successfully forced the Biden administration’s hand to quietly do away with the regulations in order for the border wall to resume construction in Texas….a you don’t hear a very vocal protest from much of the democrat base, that grilled Trump for the same thing a few short years ago


It’s politics played pretty well by both sides headed into an ejection cycle

 

[Danoff]

100% agree and I apologize. I wouldn’t say the Hispanic vote is spilt down the middle in Texas, but I would assume the main reason there a palatable Republican vote amongst the Hispanics in Arizona and Texas, is by virtue of those states being red, and the ranching industry.

Here, you’re starting to see a change in opinion amongst the Mexicans in regards to illegal immigration because the Central Americans inevitably end up in their neighborhoods, and they are beginning to undercut them in the labor market, as well as slicing into the welfare resources that they depend on. Same with the blacks in that regard too. If California was even a little more centrist in their politics, I’m sure at least part of the perception illegal immigration would have changed some time ago, and be more reminiscent of Texas. But predictably, people only know what politicians tell them, and no one truly cares about anything, until it affects them personally.

I do find the politics of this fascinating. I think it’s brilliant what the Democrats are doing in an attempt to change the voting demographics in traditionally red states. And it’s super smart what Texas is doing by sending the immigrants to Blue cities, far removed from Mexico, to make it personal for those constituents. I mean, Texas staying the course in sending illegals around the country, successfully forced the Biden administration’s hand to quietly do away with the regulations in order for the border wall to resume construction in Texas….a you don’t hear a very vocal protest from much of the democrat base, that grilled Trump for the same thing a few short years ago


It’s politics played pretty well by both sides headed into an ejection cycle

You're making a ton of unwarranted assumptions there. Kidnapping illegal immigrants and shipping them within the US doesn't appear to be causing anything. You DO hear about Biden allowing some progress on walling some portions of the border, because the left leaning folks want to see absolutely zero progress on that, in part because it was Trump's. But the border had "walled" sections before Trump. It's not particularly new. It does cause grumbling about Biden. It hasn't seemed to slow down the complaints from the right about Biden's plans to flood the US with illegal immigrants though. Kinda interesting. I'd think you'd change your tune in response to Biden furthering border wall construction. Seems like it directly undercuts your conspiracy.

Illegal immigrants can't vote. Even legal immigrants can't vote unless they are a full US citizen. My daughter is an example of a legal immigrant who is a US citizen and will be able to vote in future elections (when she's old enough). But not all legal immigrants can become US citizens. Illegal immigrants definitely cannot.

You're mired in conspiracies. There is no democrat plot to turn Texas blue via illegal immigration (that makes no sense). There is no conspiracy to avoid talking about Biden's 20 miles of wall. And kidnapping illegal immigrants, or defrauding them, to get them to other locations is not causing much of anything except wasted time and energy.

 

[TexRex]

spilt

ejection cycle

 

[Yard_Sale]

You're making a ton of unwarranted assumptions there. Kidnapping illegal immigrants and shipping them within the US doesn't appear to be causing anything. You DO hear about Biden allowing some progress on walling some portions of the border, because the left leaning folks want to see absolutely zero progress on that, in part because it was Trump's. But the border had "walled" sections before Trump. It's not particularly new. It does cause grumbling about Biden. It hasn't seemed to slow down the complaints from the right about Biden's plans to flood the US with illegal immigrants though. Kinda interesting. I'd think you'd change your tune in response to Biden furthering border wall construction. Seems like it directly undercuts your conspiracy.

Illegal immigrants can't vote. Even legal immigrants can't vote unless they are a full US citizen. My daughter is an example of a legal immigrant who is a US citizen and will be able to vote in future elections (when she's old enough). But not all legal immigrants can become US citizens. Illegal immigrants definitely cannot.

You're mired in conspiracies. There is no democrat plot to turn Texas blue via illegal immigration (that makes no sense). There is no conspiracy to avoid talking about Biden's 20 miles of wall. And kidnapping illegal immigrants, or defrauding them, to get them to other locations is not causing much of anything except wasted time and energy.

Sending illegals about the country IS doing something. It’s changing the perception of the effects of illegal immigration in parts of the country that have largely remained immune to the compounding effects of decades of illegal immigration.

And I wouldn’t exactly call my assumptions “conspiracies”, but rather educated assumptions based off of living in Southern California my entire life, and going down to Mexico regularly since I was in high school. A lot has changed in Mexico over the years. A lot has changed here.

And if the Democrats aren’t trying to figure out a runaround way of getting illegals voting rights…then they’re doing it wrong. I know if I was in their position, I’d be trying to figure a way.


MOREOVER…

It doesn’t really matter if these illegals get voting rights or not. The kids they WILL EVENTUALLY HAVE while they’re in the United States (legally or illegally), WILL HAVE voting rights. And will overwhelmingly vote Democrat, just as the Mexicans have been for decades. I feel like you’re smart enough to know that

 

[Danoff]

I know if I was in their position, I’d be trying to figure a way.

This is where it's all coming from. Projection of your own games and bad faith.

MOREOVER…

It doesn’t really matter if these illegals get voting rights or not. The kids they WILL EVENTUALLY HAVE while they’re in the United States (legally or illegally), WILL HAVE voting rights. And will overwhelmingly vote Democrat, just as the Mexicans have been for decades. I feel like you’re smart enough to know that

So let's count the assumptions.

1) They'll stay in a red state.
2) They'll be democrats despite coming from a country where democrats do not exist.
3) Their kids will stay in that red state.
4) Their kids will vote based on what their parents think.

I wonder if any of that applies to me and my parents.

1) No.
2) No.
3) No.
4) No.

Huh... it seems like all of that is just made up. Your democrat conspiracy requires an exceptionally long game based on a cascade of tenuous assumptions.

 

[McLaren]

Personal experience, I know quite few kids/people I’ve grown up with of “illegals” here & a chunk of them are voting Republican solely bc they are pro 2A and believe Dems will take their guns. That’s it. Just single issue voters. /shrug

 

[Joey D]

An overwhelming amount of Hispanic people I know are Republican solely because of their stance on abortion.

 

[Yard_Sale]

This is where it's all coming from. Projection of your own games and bad faith.



So let's count the assumptions.

1) They'll stay in a red state.
2) They'll be democrats despite coming from a country where democrats do not exist.
3) Their kids will stay in that red state.
4) Their kids will vote based on what their parents think.

I wonder if any of that applies to me and my parents.

1) No.
2) No.
3) No.
4) No.

Huh... it seems like all of that is just made up. Your democrat conspiracy requires an exceptionally long game based on a cascade of tenuous assumptions.

So, what do you think is going to happen? Your best educated guess for the immediate future, 5 years from now, and 15 years from now


- One scenario if Republicans win the White House this year.

- And another scenario if the Democrats keep the white house.


Honestly curious on how you think it will all play out

 

[Liquid]

An overwhelming amount of Hispanic people I know are Republican solely because of their stance on abortion.

The scare of Hispanic people being all whimpy Democrats is ludicrous. You only have to look at the other stereotype of Catholic machismo to equally but wrongly suggest that they're all right-wingers.

It's almost like tarring all people in a group with the same brush usually isn't the smartest thing to do.

 

[Danoff]

So, what do you think is going to happen? Your best educated guess for the immediate future, 5 years from now, and 15 years from now


- One scenario if Republicans win the White House this year.

If republicans win the white house this year, Donald Trump will actually attempt to strongarm the justice system against political adversaries, and will continue to openly threaten opposition with violence. I expect he will continue to make moves to erode faith in democracy, and will move to end elections in the US. I'd expect to start seeing even more attempts to strong-arm companies into doing things that benefit trump, or simply becoming political mouthpieces. If DT wins, I honestly think America fails as a nation. He will try to do a better job of securing the military to help him seize power than he did last time.

Problem is, he's such a stooge that he'll accidentally allow someone to seize power by force (against him). So the destabilization will be more an opportunity for a putin type who is actually competent to seize control from Trump stooge.

- And another scenario if the Democrats keep the white house.

Another 4 years much like these last years have been. More attempts to help the poor, more attempts to protect the right to vote, more spending attempts, maybe a run at a universal healthcare program.

 

[Liquid]

Another 4 years much like these last years have been. More attempts to help the poor, more attempts to protect the right to vote, more spending attempts, maybe a run at a universal healthcare program.

You don't have to agree with the Democrats but they're at least practicing governance.

Are they helping the poor in the best possible way? Maybe, maybe not but they're doing something.
Are they protecting the right to vote in the best possible way? Maybe, maybe not but they're doing something.
Are they tackling healthcare in the best possible way? Maybe, maybe not but they're trying something.

The Republicans don't even pretend to want to govern. They just want power.

 

[Yard_Sale]

If republicans win the white house this year, Donald Trump will actually attempt to strongarm the justice system against political adversaries, and will continue to openly threaten opposition with violence. I expect he will continue to make moves to erode faith in democracy, and will move to end elections in the US. I'd expect to start seeing even more attempts to strong-arm companies into doing things that benefit trump, or simply becoming political mouthpieces. If DT wins, I honestly think America fails as a nation. He will try to do a better job of securing the military to help him seize power than he did last time.

Problem is, he's such a stooge that he'll accidentally allow someone to seize power by force (against him). So the destabilization will be more an opportunity for a putin type who is actually competent to seize control from Trump stooge.



Another 4 years much like these last years have been. More attempts to help the poor, more attempts to protect the right to vote, more spending attempts, maybe a run at a universal healthcare program.

Was asking in regard to immigration. Being that’s what we were talking about.


But to voice my own opinion on how you answered the question, I think either side will do whatever they can to gain more power and control…. I mean, that’s really all it’s about for the governing class. They just disguise the same general goals in different ways that will get the most votes and fund raising. Which circles back to one of my original points in regards to illegal immigration; that I genuinely think it’s a problem that’s in neither party’s best interest to actually solve

 

[Danoff]

Was asking in regard to immigration. Being that’s what we were talking about.

It's just not particularly relevant given what's on the line. See my response to liquid below.

The Republicans don't even pretend to want to govern. They just want power.

Part of the problem is that the US political system is breakable. I suppose no political system is immune to this, but the cracks are apparent. Trump will pardon the Jan. 6th rioters first thing. But pardoning the rioters will send a strong message that future rioters or vigilantes will receive the same kind of help from the president. He has ultimately figured out how to break the US, and it's through the pardon.

If trump were to win, I would expect to see him attempt to wield mob activities more directly, and the promise of a pardon will be all that the participants need to carry out any and all acts of intimidation and takeover. The attempted kidnapping of Gov. Whitmer, as directed and encouraged by Trump, is an easy blueprint to follow. A pardon for those involved signals that future attempts will be more successful. I do honestly think that our president will encourage and pardon crimes against political adversaries in much the same way as Whitmer, and it'll be more successful. In the end, you'll see political speech fall in line as people are too afraid of the mob to speak out.

It's pretty tenuous.