America - The Official Thread
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Yeah, I dunno. Keeping on the topic of illegal immigration, when taking a 30,000’ view on the entire issue, and putting myself into the shoes of someone who’s thinking long-term strategy…like 15+ years down the line, I can’t think of very many reasons on why the Democrats would allow a mass influx of illegal immigrants over the last 3 years. Furthermore, it’s a sharp departure from the immigration policy that the Obama administration had not more than 10 years ago. And an even sharper departure from the collective United States immigration policy in the early 2000’s, when representatives from both parties (including Obama, Hillary, Schumer, Pelosi, ect.) voted in favor of an enhanced border security fence/wall/whatever non-triggering name you want to call it.
Like most things in government, it just feels like the politics, and strategy have changed significantly over the course of the last 20 years.
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Danoff
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Much like immigration has played out in the past. The US has a long history of immigration. We're a country of immigrants. The long term solution is that the people who grow up in the US will have grown up in the US, just like you. They're just people.
Nobody is thinking that long term. Stop with the conspiracies. Nobody, not Trump, not Biden, not the DNC, not the RNC. Not Wallstreet. Not your governor, or mine, or the illuminati, or JFK Jr., or Taylor Swift, or Lizard People, or anyone else. That's partly because Biden and Trump will likely both be dead from old age in 15 years, but also because it's in nobody's interest in the US (and this is a structural issue with our nation) what anything looks like in 15 years. None of them are planning that far out. Most of them are focused on this year only.
The closest you will find to people who are looking that far out are planetary scientists like those studying the Earth's climate. And they're sounding the alarm for people to do something to avoid catastrophe, but the rest of the world literally cannot look that far out.
Because it's good for the economy to have workers? Because it's good for the people that immigrate? Because it lifts all boats, theirs, ours, everyone's? Because people are good, and when they can provide for themselves it helps everyone? We're literally a nation of immigrants who did exactly that. This is the story of America. You're looking so hard for evil that you forget to just take people at face value.
We're emerging from some xenophobia and nationalism.
In the last 20 years we've grown culturally a bit.
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Joey D
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Democrats aren't allowing an influx of illegal immigrants, the illegal immigrants are just come and our politicians are too worried about whatever it is they bitch about to figure out a legitimate solution. Trump's solution of a wall was expensive and useless, plus it relied heavily on eminent domain which should never exist. Until the quality of life improves in Central America, nothing is going to change and the US shouldn't really get involved in trying to change thing in Central America either. We've tried that before and it was not great.
Probably the best solution would be to change our immigration process so it doesn't take a ton of money and time to come to the US. It would also probably be better to, you know, deport people that shouldn't be here. We probably need to start with the visa overstays since those are the ones that take jobs away from Americans. People coming here to pick fruit don't take away any jobs and provide a net positive to the economy. The person who came here on a student visa and is now an engineer however is absolutely taking a job. I know of two people who work for the Big
Given the state of a worker shortage right now though, bringing in people to do unskilled work that isn't desirable by Americans would probably be a good thing. COVID killed a lot of people and put even more on disability due to long COVID. We need something to fill in those gaps and bringing in workers from elsewhere would be the easiest and cheapest solution.
Danoff
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A VISA overstay is someone who came here legally and simply didn't leave when their paperwork ran out. This has to be near the bottom of the list for me. These people were vetted and just didn't want to go back. I have no idea why you're worried about their job, but I'm not.
Why should an American have that job when the person who has it has it? They should just get their VISA extended. You're talking about someone who is contributing to the economy (as an engineer), and who is paying for themselves and presumably is not committing crimes or smuggling or doing anything to harm anyone. They're just working and producing and came here legally and you'd START by deporting this person? Seems like a big mistake to me.
Doing more efficient work that generates more value is also a good thing as it grows the economy even more.
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The immigration discussion often cuts around one of two mutually exclusive arguments.
1) They need to be well educated to get a high paying job so they can contribute and not be dead beats.
2) They need to be only taking jobs people don't want so that they can contribute and not be dead beats.
In reality, people working at every job in your economy grows your economy. The more value the person creates, the better.
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Joey D
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They're the ones taking the jobs, though. Oftentimes, people cite that illegal immigrants are taking jobs, but they focus on illegals coming here to do seasonal work like picking fruit or unskilled work like cleaning hotel rooms. People don't really want to do those types of jobs and there's a pool of people willing to do them. I see no reason why the pool of people who are willing to do those types jobs should be turned away. We absolutely could have Americans want to do those types of jobs (like picking fruit) but then you'd end up with blueberries that cost $17 a pint.
I believe the number one country with visa overstays with regard to student and foreign exchange is China, which is why I say start there. China is an enemy nation and we really should not have undocumented people from any country we consider an enemy. Legal immigrants from those nations should be heavily, heavily vetted and have a legitimate reason for coming here (adoption would be the main legitimate reason and, to a lesser extent, asylum).
Are all of them Chinese spies or hellbent on destroying the US? No, of course not, but if they're already skirting immigration laws, it raises suspscions. We already know China has secret police stations in the US to keep tabs on their citizens (or former citizens) and I'm not sure what sort of information is being passed. China is also one of the only nations that are actively trying to deliver attacks on US soil (whether espionage or cyber), which furthers my suspicion of their citizens being here illegally. I also question illegal Chinese immigrants working in engineering. Granted, they'd never be close to anything remotely classified since their illegal status would be uncovered in a background check, but all one has to do is look at the Chinese auto industry to see that they don't have an original thought in their head. They rely almost entirely on ripping off designs and technology from other companies.
Is the Canadian who came here and never left a threat? Eh problem not, but you can't just single out one group of people breaking the law or else you end up like Oklahoma, so go after all of them and enforce the law that's already established.
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I've come to the conclusion over the last 8-10 years that the constituents of the Republican party (and especially the MAGA portion of it) have become best grouped together under the attribute of hedonism. Doing what feels individually good regardless of ethics, morals, cooperation, civil society, etc. Donald Trump of course being the perfect champion of this. There is still some glue holding the Christian right to the GOP, but the Christian right doesn't seem to be very interested in traditionally Christian values anymore. I won't be even slightly surprised if there is some kind of MAGA Christian church that emerges out of this cult just because directly worshipping Donald is a little too on the nose. We've got the empathetic-left vs the hedonistic-right, just completely different world views irrespective of platform, policy, etc. IMO this is the end result when stupid (and bad faith) people wield Ayn Rand objectivity to control even stupider people - and perhaps the culmination of the most dangerous thing Rand articulated, that empathy should be forcefully/deliberately discarded as human weakness. Anyways...it seems like some psychologists are thinking along similar lines...
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UKMikey
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If that's the case then I wonder why working so actively to curtail human rights by targeting minorities and women feels so good to them.
Joey D
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It already kind of exists. There's the Rod of Iron Ministries that is as close to as a MAGA church as you can probably get. It's not even that surprise either since a poll by Fox News found that 25% of Republicans believe Trump was chosen by God. There are pastors have more or less mad Trump a prophet too, specifically Jonathan Cahn. Finally, there's a book called President Donald J. Trump, The Son of Man - The Christ, where the author essentially says Trump is Jesus.
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Feeling good about overpowering people perceived as weak is kind of a staple of human history.
edit: I should add that MAGA does not represent successful America, clearly evidenced by the massive GDP disparity between pro Biden districts and pro Trump districts. While there are notable "successful" business people that are loudly MAGA, I think the typical foot soldier is on the lower rungs of the ladder. I think it's not surprising that these people would be looking to position themselves as superior to someone...anyone else. Minorities from extremely poor central American countries are good for that.
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UKMikey
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The cornerstone address sounds like a good example of this.
UKMikey
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Normal people doing normal things:
www.nbcnews.com
Man arrested after allegedly decapitating his father, displaying his head on YouTube
In the video, which has been removed, Justin Mohn says his father was a federal employee and refers to him as a traitor while voicing right-wing conspiracy theories.
www.nbcnews.com
InB4 "YeAh bUt kAtHy gRiFfiN"...NBC News
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Danoff
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I don't know how you have it in your mind that a job is an American job, or belongs to Americans, or that an American is entitled to it. But you're talking about someone who legally holds that job, and stripping them of it because their VISA date ran out - not because it somehow belongs with a superior American. The triggering event here is the VISA date, not the holding of the job. We had no problem with them holding the job prior to the VISA date.
You're talking about someone who IS documented and came here legally. Someone who was vetted and allowed in, and has paperwork behind that. They've been here for some time, and they don't want to leave. You think because we consider a country they don't live in, that they don't call home, and where they don't want to go, some kind of "enemy" which is not very well defined in this case if you're talking about China, that this person, who lives here, not there, and who came here legally, needs to go.
Someone whose VISA ran out was vetted and was here legally.
Suspicions of what exactly? That they don't want to go to China? Yea. Would you?
This is a quite separable issue.
It should raise your empathetic response toward people who don't want to return.
...and now you're thinking that we need to save a company that is employing workers from china past their VISA date from industrial espionage at the hands of those people? And we're doing this with blanket refusals of Chinese immigrants? And this because... Chinese people are just inherently unoriginal and steal ideas?!? The Chinese government doesn't police or protect intellectual property law the same way the US does today. The US has not always done so to the extent it does today. This says nothing about the originality of Chinese people, but is just a difference in legal treatment of IP across these two governments. We can talk for a while about the merits and flaws of that difference, but it's not some kind of inherent quality in Chineseness.
Joey D
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If you're not here specifically on a work visa, then you're not entitled to work, thus taking a job. From my understanding, most visa overstays are for students and short-term tourists. While I believe people on a student visa can work minimal hours in select jobs (like on-campus jobs), people on tourist visas can't. If you are here on a work visa and you're working, you're not taking a job since you're entitled to work.
With many of the migrants from Mexico and Central America, I see it as different because they are coming here to do a job that wouldn't exist otherwise. They're not really taking a job that someone entitled to work would be doing in the first place. I do think there should be some sort of way for migrant workers to get temporary work visas with ease.
They came here legally either for vacation, to visit someone, or to go to school, not to work and live permanently. That's the issue I'm having. They came to the US under false pretenses if they said, "I'm here to be a student," then just decided to live here. If you want to come here to work, then get a work visa. And yes, I believe work visas are far too difficult to obtain. But once you're here as a student, you can towards getting all the proper documentation and eventually become a citizen.
I am suspicious of anyone from an enemy nation. A buddy of mine is married to a girl who grew up in China and came to the US to school. She lives here now and I don't trust her because she constantly makes remarks about how the US is a threat. She denies Tiananmen Square and has told me that I've been fed lies that China is committing genocide against the Uyghur. She thinks that the US is going to nuke Beijing because Taiwan is definitely part of China and not its own country. All her friends that came from China say the exact same thing too. When someone is from a hostile nation and is spouting that kind of stuff, it makes me wonder where their intentions are.
I'll admit, I don't know what her intent is, but everything I've ever seen her post online has been nothing but Chinese propaganda. At best, she's a misguided idiot that hates America and at worst, she's actively working with the Chinese government to push their propaganda. If she hates America and thinks China is the best country in the world, I don't understand why she's even here, but she's never given me a direct answer on that other than her parents thought it was good for her.
There are ways to come to a country for asylum if you fit the definition, and they should do that.
Oh, I don't think it's on the US government to protect the companies; I just don't think it's in the company's best interest to employ illegal Chinese immigrants because of the country's propensity to steal intellectual property right and left. An illegal Chinese immigrant seems like they would be more suspect of committing corporate espionage, but if an American car company doesn't care, that's entirely on them. It's also entirely on them for employing someone who shouldn't be allowed to work in the US in the first place since a simple background check should uncover that.
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Joey D
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Jews don't bear responsibility for Israel because Jews can be from anywhere. Israelis, however, do need to shoulder some of that blame since they elected the guy who's hellbent on killing Palestinian civilians. There's less of a choice in China since you can't really vote, but I'm still suspicious of anyone from the country due to the rampant brainwashing that goes on. I don't automatically think they are terrorists or anything, but I'm still not trusting. I've been told countless times this is racist, and it probably is (or at the least prejudice), but no matter how much I do to change my perception, I can't. I have actively tried to change my perception of China, too, but all that it ended up doing was making me more wary of the country and its citizens.
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Jews from the diaspora bear no less responsibility for the actions of the Israeli state than Israeli Jews. Individuals don't represent any body which governs, governed, or has never governed them. It may ostensibly be the opposite--it's frequently not the case--but that's the only way it can go; water doesn't flow upstream.
The only thing you can reasonably infer from an individual having traveled from one place to another is that it took time and energy. Everything else, absent additional legitimate information, is purely conjecture.
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Are you wearing a bib and a helmet?
Who immigrated? Immigrating is a legal procedure.
Nobody has a problem with people who do that.
We're talking about an invasion.
People are invading the country, and the dickless leader is fine with it.
Name one other country that let's just anybody waltz into their land, consequence free.
Defending an action like that make you look foolish.
McLaren
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The invasion claim is such a dumb talking point b/c it immediately implicates Greg Abbott as a traitor. You can't claim the country is being invaded whilst also simultaneously busing over a hundred thousand of the "invaders" deeper into the country.
Just more of the usual bad takes from smooth brains.
Just more of the usual bad takes from smooth brains.
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