America - The Official Thread

[TenEightyOne]

Wow, you guys are serious?

Erm, well I am, mostly

It was a genuine question; it seems a very strange situation... I just had no idea until very recently that prohibition still existed anywhere. At what age would American children normally start to drink socially?

 

[Liquid]

At what age would American children normally start to drink socially?

It might depend on the state because different states have different drinking ages.

Also, here's all of the United States' counties coloured by alcohol laws.

Blue - Wet
Yellow - Moist
Red - Dry

 

[Omnis]

No they don't. The age is 21. The states are free to make it whatever age they want, but the federal gov withholds road funds if it's not 21 or older.

 

[TenEightyOne]

No they don't. The age is 21. The states are free to make it whatever age they want, but the federal gov withholds road funds if it's not 21 or older.

Why the head wall? This is your chance to culturally enlighten us! Why/how would we know these things?

So in the UK the earliest age at which you can drink in a licensed establishment is 16, there's a middle and upper-class trend to allow drinking at the home table (watered or in extreme moderation) before that, it removes the mystery/excitement of alcohol and teaches responsibility. That's illegal for people under 5 years of age, I think we're the only country in Europe that has any minimum age in a domestic setting.

Are you saying that in the USA one strictly wouldn't allow an under-21-year-old to have alcohol at any time? And that's a genuine question, however horrified you are at our lack of understanding of y'all

 

[Omnis]

The banghead is for your european way of thinking and the misinformation. There is no answer to whether there is a practical drinking age. Most people are introduced to alcohol earlier, but the legal age is 21. What people do in their homes doesn't matter if it's legal or not. How would you know, anyway? It can only be enforced at the point of sale.

 

[TenEightyOne]

The banghead is for your european way of thinking and the misinformation.

I may have misread but I found that slightly unpleasant and unnecessary.

There is no answer to whether there is a practical drinking age. Most people are introduced to alcohol earlier, but the legal age is 21.

That's a fair point, I wondered if there was a "common practice" regardless of law like the English custom that I explained in my previous reply.

It wasn't until I checked the minimum age for licensed premises (16 years of age in the UK, I actually thought it was 14) that I discovered our minimum domestic age was five; the cases in which one would be challenged for an indiscretion on that would be very few and far between I think and are likely to be the result of a wider welfare action. I agree that domestic-policing is otherwise impractical.

 

[Omnis]

I may have misread but I found that slightly unpleasant and unnecessary.

See? So serious.

 

[FoolKiller]

@FoolKiller Interesting graphic. As someone who isn't from the United States or North American, the three things one thinks of when one thinks of Kentucky are chicken, horse racing and bourbon.

You forgot Corvette's, Camry's, Ford trucks, and the most important of all: Basketball.

I didn't really know just how alive dry counties are in the 21st century and certainly not in Kentucky. You said it's due to germination with the Bible belt; is it Quakers, Mormons or another sect?

Quakers and mormons? Southern Baptists, my friend. Most states in the south are like this. There aren't many bars in Arkansas because most of the counties are dry. The only people that drink alcohol are the stay-at-home drunks that slam a 24-case of Bud Light per hour.

I grew up in a Southern Baptist church. We thought Catholics were strange drunks who use alcohol sales to fund their schools. My Lutheran friend had to drive 20 miles for his family to attend the nearest church. And there were groups that were so conservative they broke off from the Southern Baptists, and we considered them to be a cult.

Allow me to introduce you to some Southern Baptist sermons.

One beer is responsible for a drunk driving accident, and any pastor who says otherwise is a hypocrite.


You only need the first two minutes of this one.

Forgive my ignorance. 'Southern Baptist', 'Evangelicism', 'Presbytarian' or whatever are as completely blurred to me as Coke and Pepsi, or Marlboro and Camel, might be to someone else.

The main difference between a Southern Baptist and a Presbyterian is that Presbyterians don't duck when someone else comes into the liquor store.

Daft question but... are these stay at home drunks not breaking the law if they're slamming Buds in a dry county? Just trying to get an understanding of how it works. Dry Sundays in most places in Wales ended about 30 years before I was born.

Dry Sundays! There is nothing more annoying than having a Monday off work for a holiday or something and being unable to get into a liquor store, or even buy some beer at the grocery, on Sunday.

There are other differences too. For instance, in Kentucky you can not sell wine, liquor, etc. in a grocery store. They can only sell beer and malt beverages, like Smirnoff Ice and wine coolers. My general rule of thumb is anything over 10% alcohol isn't in a grocery store. There are freestanding, privately-owned liquor (package) stores. It sounds like a hassle, but a whole establishment dedicated to alcohol means more choices. I can never find my favorite beer in a grocery. In an odd twist, pharmacies can sell alcohol the same as a liquor store, but they typically only dedicate a single aisle to it.

But, that is just Kentucky. In Ohio I can buy any form of alcohol in a grocery chain that won't have it in Kentucky. In some states the only alcohol sales are through government-run stores.

The other interesting thing are the laws on shipping alcohol. Certain kinds of alcohol cannot be shipped direct-to-consumers from out-of-state. I cannot order wine for delivery that wasn't bottled in Kentucky. There are some other criteria involved as well, dealing with winery size and whatnot, but they barely apply as any winery that is big enough to meet the exceptions is already available on store shelves. And that is the other thing. A wine I can't have shipped to me can be sold in a store, via a distributor (double taxes). It is legal for me to cross state lines and buy alcohol and bring it back with me, but some states don't allow that either.

Ultimately, no one fully understands alcohol laws until they run afoul of them My wife tried joining an online wine club but got rejected due to our shipping laws. Some people might travel to other states and get busted for having something in their car. It is a confusing mess that has been a giant, legal mess since prohibition was repealed.

Exactly, it's insane

How does one obtain alcohol, can you take it across country lines if you're the consumer-owner?

Yes. I remember the County Line Liquor Store, right next to the bar, Eli's Place, just 50 yards over the county line. Opponents of alcohol use drunk driving as their reasoning, but cannot explain to me how making someone drive 20 miles to drink and then drive back is helping.

That's it. Just how would a county enforce a ban on alcohol consumption? Are the handful of police officers supposed to drive 50 miles to every person's home to check for it? Come on, guys.

I imagine it would look a lot like the War on Drugs.

 

[Keef]

@Liquid if you want to find Mormons in the US go to Utah. That's where 90% of them are. Actually, Utah was basically designed an an enclave for Mormons. A while back they all ventured west to build their own weird little Mormon society and they landed in the general area of Utah, but as the US expanded and starting designing territories and states, the Mormon territory was bastardized and made smaller and cut off from most useful resources. I mean, Utah is home of the Great Salt Lake. What the hell, you know. Who wants that? The best European equivalent is Poland - Utah is the Poland of the United States.

Here's a clip on it and the whole episode. The History Channel's show How the States Got Their Shapes is really awesome.

http://www.history.com/topics/us-states/utah/videos/how-utah-got-its-shape#

http://www.history.com/shows/how-th...the-states-got-their-shapes-church-and-states

 

[Brett]

Any time Mormons are mentioned, the only thing I can think of is the South Park episode, All About Mormons.

 

[Liquid]

Any time Mormons are mentioned, the only thing I can think of is the South Park episode, All About Mormons.

Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb!

 

[Sanji Himura]

I may have misread but I found that slightly unpleasant and unnecessary.

It may have been unnecessary, but it was a fair assessment. It wouldn't have hurt anyone to have done some homework on American drinking habits and laws before going and generalizing that all drinking laws are up to par with Europeans.

 

[FoolKiller]

Just go see Book of Mormon.

 

[Liquid]

generalizing that all drinking laws are up to par with Europeans.

A claim which was never made. The mention of situations in other countries was clearly for comparative purposes and not "Well, here's ours; they've got to be the same."

 

[Blood Eagle]

I used to live in a Dry County. All the drunks were all over the roads to go to the next county to purchase the booze. Very classy.

 

[Dennisch]

For instance, in Kentucky you can not sell wine, liquor, etc. in a grocery store. They can only sell beer and malt beverages, like Smirnoff Ice and wine coolers. My general rule of thumb is anything over 10% alcohol isn't in a grocery store.

In all of the Netherlands, grocery stores aren't allowed to sell anything stronger than 15%. We have "slijterijen" for the stronger stuff, of which some are actually located in the same building, and share the same door, owner and employees as the grocerystore. Can't buy a drop of alcohol at a gas station though.

 

[FoolKiller]

In all of the Netherlands, grocery stores aren't allowed to sell anything stronger than 15%. We have "slijterijen" for the stronger stuff, of which some are actually located in the same building, and share the same door, owner and employees as the grocerystore. Can't buy a drop of alcohol at a gas station though.

Our groceries will setup liquor stores that are either attached or located in the same shopping center, but must have a separate outside entrance. In one case it is literally walking out of the grocery store, turn immediately right and walk into the liquor store. You will be in the liquor store before the automated door to the grocery is closed. It's a cool design too because the liquor store is technically in the main building, but has no interior entrance. It has one wall that it share with the cash room, where cash register drawers are turned in by cashiers, so that the money gets counted in the same place without ever going outside.

 

[Omnis]

Mormons ain't bad. They get a bad rap for being proselytizing. Not sure they ever got the "poor in spirit" memo.

A claim which was never made. The mention of situations in other countries was clearly for comparative purposes and not "Well, here's ours; they've got to be the same."

No, you all are misunderstanding me. When I said "european way of thinking" I was facetiously making reference to an overabundant reverence or reliance on laws. Nobody gives booze to children. A law stating that the minimum age for consumption is 5 years old is completely ridiculous. It's just common sense-- doesn't matter what the law says. The official age is 21, but as I was saying earlier, people will drink whenever they feel like they ought to. Usually if kids get a hold of alcohol mischeviously, they go way overboard and get so sick that it's a lesson learned. But there are 300 million people in America so making blanket statements is sort of silly. That's like asking how old kids are when they start having sex.

 

[FoolKiller]

Mormons ain't bad.

No, but they make for great subject matter in one of the best musicals I have ever seen.

Usually if kids get a hold of alcohol mischeviously, they go way overboard and get so sick that it's a lesson learned.

Or you are 16, visiting your brother at college, get handed a couple of glasses of hooch, and spend the rest of the night playing Asteroids and getting a high score that went unbeaten until the dying day of the computer. Then you believe that alcohol gives you superior video game abilities until you try this new driving game, called Gran Turismo. And that is when you learn the perils of drunk driving, from the safety of your living room.

Lesson learned.

 

[Brett]

Just go see Book of Mormon.

I have tickets to see it at the end of December/start of January (I cannot remember which one).

 

[FoolKiller]

I have tickets to see it at the end of December/start of January (I cannot remember which one).

Watch the old people who are there because they have season tickets or just know they bought tickets to see a Tony Award winning musical. They can be as entertaining as the show.

 

[Wolfe]

@TenEightyOne -- In Wisconsin, it is legal for the underaged to be served alcohol by their parents or legal guardian. You can sit at a bar and drink together, although they generally don't want kids around after 9pm. If not for the withholding of federal funds, as Omnis mentioned, I'm sure the legal drinking age in Wisconsin would still be 18. Kids generally get into it during high school.

 

[TenEightyOne]

It may have been unnecessary, but it was a fair assessment. It wouldn't have hurt anyone to have done some homework on American drinking habits and laws before going and generalizing that all drinking laws are up to par with Europeans.

It was the first I'd heard of it and I was asking someone who I presume to be American. "Up to a par" sounds like you're making a subjective assessment of which is better/worse, I'm not sure that really works.

From my own point of view I was just interested in how the practicalities work; I don't imagine that "dry county" dwellers enjoy alcohol any less than "wet county" dwellers (if that's a correct distinction) so I just wondered where y'all was gittin it

 

[FoolKiller]

"Up to a par" sounds like you're making a subjective assessment of which is better/worse, I'm not sure that really works.

I can make it work. If I were an alcoholic I would have moved to Canada a long time ago because their laws are better for getting drunk more easily at a young age.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I can make it work. If I were an alcoholic I would have moved to Canada a long time ago because their laws are better for getting drunk more easily at a young age.

A pedant might say that you present a paradox if you moved early and created an alcoholism whereby you were impelled to move early

A different question on the subject; for dry regions what's the motivation in the policy? Is it normally due to religious observation, on health grounds?

 

[FoolKiller]

A pedant might say that you present a paradox if you moved early and created an alcoholism whereby you were impelled to move early

My true philosophy is: Old enough to due in battle, old enough to drink.

A different question on the subject; for dry regions what's the motivation in the policy? Is it normally due to religious observation, on health grounds?

I think part of it is that multiple generations have known no other way. We are talking nearly 100 years. Now, occasionally the area will become the new suburbs of a city or a new vacation spot. Suddenly, you have a large number of residents who do know a different way and all the scare stories don't hold true to them. They begin the talk. That is when you get two groups opposed to the idea; the religious conservatives and the people who had the unfortunate experience of knowing an alcoholic.

Ultimately, the reason why they want it dry never occurs to them until they have to confront the idea of it becoming wet. Then, they choose their reason. I know that growing up in a dry county we didn't think anything of it. Unless you were a full-time farmer you did all your work and shopping in a more urban area that was wet. The first time it came up I had just graduated college and they just wanted to allow it to be served in restaurants. That was the first time I thought about it, and after six drunken years of college I didn't see what the big deal was. But those who never left the county or were bible thumpers had all kinds of farcical tales. The local preachers gave sermons on the evils of alcohol and encouraged their parishioners to vote no on legalization. Anecdotes on the number of drunk driving deaths in a bigger city were given. It wasn't a ratio to population, just a big number that they claimed we would have. By their math we would all be dead within five years.

 

[Crash]

Erm, well I am, mostly

It was a genuine question; it seems a very strange situation... I just had no idea until very recently that prohibition still existed anywhere. At what age would American children normally start to drink socially?

Legally, 21, except for specific state-by-state exemptions. But 21 is a good rule-of-thumb.

Otherwise illegally, often earlier.

It might depend on the state because different states have different drinking ages.

All states have a 21+ drinking age. Though technically a state affair, Federal government withholds certain funding if alcohol laws are not 21+, and states don't want to lose that money.

Are you saying that in the USA one strictly wouldn't allow an under-21-year-old to have alcohol at any time? And that's a genuine question, however horrified you are at our lack of understanding of y'all

State-by-state. Some states have specific exemptions for consumption at home when under parental/guardian supervision. Also, states have exemptions for consumption during religious ceremonies (e.g. when taking the Eucharist).

Though unsupervised or in public, 21 or over.

--

And to be fair to those less familiar with our laws, the US has a unique separation of powers with the Federal and state system, one that most Europeans aren't and can't really be expected to be an expert in. The things that are decided at the state level vs at the Federal level vs one or the other with "encouragement" from the other is so convoluted in reality. Then you throw in alcohol rules, where even people in the US don't understand, and with things like sales and distribution, or at home consumption decided on by the state, then otherwise decided by state, but effectively by the feds with budget enticements, I can see it end up being very confusing.

I have tickets to see it at the end of December/start of January (I cannot remember which one).

Have fun. I really enjoyed it.

 

[FoolKiller]

Saturday Night Live had some fun with the most recent executive order.

 

[Rallywagon]

It might depend on the state because different states have different drinking ages.

Also, here's all of the United States' counties coloured by alcohol laws.

Blue - Wet
Yellow - Moist
Red - Dry

I am curious about the "moist" thing here. I live in Michigan, which is mostly yellow, and I can't for the life of me think why. Beer is sold on gas stations, grocery stores and super marts like Meijer sells liquor. Sundays are no longer dry. And we don't have dry counties. I wonder why we aren't considered "wet".

 

[Omnis]

Because those counties in Michigan are dry by default, yet have cities that may elect to go wet.

Dry, but a little wet...