America - The Official Thread

  • Thread starter ///M-Spec
  • 39,176 comments
  • 1,743,413 views
From what I've heard Chaz has finished his transition.
But you get my point.

Well what I have been doing so far seems to be working. The early learning Academy he goes to has one stall restroom per classroom, one at a time. All adults use separate restrooms. I've not seen a single kid down there that shows signs of being gay or transgender. And we really don't go out in public and when we do I usually just put a diaper on him till we get back. And he can hold it pretty well. So in my mind, my "crazy" ideas work. I'm not teaching him to fear them, I just don't want him exposed to it, till he grows up more. I know in all reality I will have to talk to him about this at some point.
If transgender people only existed in bathrooms this would work. I've found myself behind them in line at a Walmart. Like I said, you need some magic bubble, not a diaper. And what happens after he soils that diaper? Leave him in it the rest of the trip.

And I don't know what else to tell you. You think I'm wrong or you don't.
My questions aren't regarding whether I disagree with your views. Quit thinking and reacting to them like they are.

My questions are to figure out how you seriously expect to avoid exposure. It's like my dad acting like interracial couples shouldn't be where my brother and I could see them, but eventually gave up because there was nowhere we could go that interracial couples wouldn't also go.

I'm also not questioning your parenting decisions, but don't understand how your actions and desires achieve your goals.
 
The first of six trials over the death of Freddie Grey that sparked multiple days of "protests" is now over. The bench trial of former officer Edward Nero resulted in a not guilty verdict from the judge today. There were a dozen or so verdict watchers outside the courthouse in Baltimore, but nothing that suggests violence yet, unlike Ferguson.
 
But you get my point.
Yes.

If transgender people only existed in bathrooms this would work. I've found myself behind them in line at a Walmart. Like I said, you need some magic bubble, not a diaper. And what happens after he soils that diaper? Leave him in it the rest of the trip.
That depends. If it's #2, no, I'll change him as soon as possible, if not I try take him there before he does it, so the clean up is minimal.

My questions are to figure out how you seriously expect to avoid exposure. It's like my dad acting like interracial couples shouldn't be where my brother and I could see them, but eventually gave up because there was nowhere we could go that interracial couples wouldn't also go.

I'm also not questioning your parenting decisions, but don't understand how your actions and desires achieve your goals.
As I said I'll talk to him about it when he brings it up. But I'm not going to try to explain something to him that will confuse him when he's just in the, "boys have this, girls have that" stage. And to be honest he probably wouldn't even think about it at this age, if he did see one. I didn't know what transgender was till after high school.
Just cause you see a few in the downtown/midtown and club/party areas, which I avoid(crime central). You just don't see transgender people around my side of town.(not saying we don't have our crimes, just a lot less)

I know what you're talking about though. And in a business stand point, my syupid idea of a single person restroom would never work for business' with high pedestrian traffic.
 
And in a business stand point, my syupid idea of a single person restroom would never work for business' with high pedestrian traffic.

It does though, there are lots of places that have unisex toilet facilities. Seems to work just fine. Except in McDonalds, but anyone who'll use their lavs is a brave soul in any case.
 
But I'm not going to try to explain something to him that will confuse him when he's just in the, "boys have this, girls have that" stage.
Well, this is where I am likely lost. My daughter never had this stage. She plays with Barbies and Hot Wheels. If we get a Happy Meal we can't just assume she wants the girl toy. She watches WTSC races with me and asks me to bring her back souvenirs from Petit LeMans. She plays trucks with the boys at school and gets mad if they tell her she can't because she's a girl. She has princess dresses and TMNT outfits and weapons. I got her into watching Thundercats and now she'll watch it without me. And she keeps bringing bugs into the house to keep. She never learned gender stereotypes.

Maybe it's because I have a standing dare that I'll wear the Go Red for Women dress if my Heart Walk team comes in first and I've let her dress me up without hesitation. There are videos out there of her painting my nails and face while I wore a wig and a pink tutu.

I didn't know what transgender was till after high school.
The fact that you went that long without watching Rocky Horror Picture Show makes me sad. Seems odd that you had/have less exposure to this stuff in Atlanta than I do/did in rural Kentucky.

It does though, there are lots of places that have unisex toilet facilities. Seems to work just fine. Except in McDonalds, but anyone who'll use their lavs is a brave soul in any case.
If your choice is that or a gas station bathroom on the side of the building with a broken door though...
 
Ah, so the indoctrination has progressed from....
In the case of my daughter, I specifically went out of my way to avoid a focus on princesses and baby dolls for the first year or two. I did this to the point of putting away gifts of this nature. Her very first stuffed animal was a dinosaur. Her first toy was a car. She has Megablocks and access to video games. Before she was born I would play racecar engine sounds on my wife's stomach. I would have her sit with me to watch car races. We take her to railroad museums and car shows.

Nearly five years into this social experiment and she loves Frozen while Cars bores her. The most recent toy car I bought her at Petit LeMans, at the beginning of this month, has already been set aside. That isn't to say that I don't see the affect I had. She will get excited when she sees a racecar, but it is especially exciting if it is pink or purple. She wants to run and jump and climb trees, but she has a 50% chance of wanting her Elsa or Barbie doll with her. She sits with me and watches Justice League and similar cartoons, but if she has control of the remote and I don't suggest something she winds up watching something with princesses, fairies, Barbie, or Bratz (which is clearly created by men. Have you seen what they are wearing?).
She never learned gender stereotypes.
How do you know that? You gave all of the information in order for her to infer the stereotypes, by actively steering away from "girl things", and toward "boy things". If a bias needs to be added to achieve balance, it automatically implies that the default position shows a natural opposite bias. Indoctrinating a child to achieve a balanced outcome is really no different to boy/girl exclusive indoctrinations, and just as readily reinforces the stereotypes.
 
If a bias needs to be added to achieve balance, it automatically implies that the default position shows a natural opposite bias.

Maybe that is the case in this situation. A child doesn't only learn from their parents. If there is a bias from society, I don't think it's wrong to try to counter that bias.

Indoctrinating a child to achieve a balanced outcome is really no different to boy/girl exclusive indoctrinations, and just as readily reinforces the stereotypes.

I think exposing the stereotypes is beneficial. I agree with you that forcing a balanced outcome isn't a good thing, but forcing one isn't the same as just providing all the options.
 
Same. The information is still there, the actual result of the coercion is merely academic.
I agree with you that forcing a balanced outcome isn't a good thing, but forcing one isn't the same as just providing all the options.
Force vs options - which one do you think more befits having actively removed "girl stuff"?

This might look like making a big deal out of nothing, but I don't think it's big deal at all really. I just find it interesting, and mean to cause no offense.
 
Well, this is where I am likely lost. My daughter never had this stage. She plays with Barbies and Hot Wheels. If we get a Happy Meal we can't just assume she wants the girl toy. She watches WTSC races with me and asks me to bring her back souvenirs from Petit LeMans. She plays trucks with the boys at school and gets mad if they tell her she can't because she's a girl. She has princess dresses and TMNT outfits and weapons. I got her into watching Thundercats and now she'll watch it without me. And she keeps bringing bugs into the house to keep. She never learned gender stereotypes.
After reading what @LeMansAid quoted you saying almost 2 years ago, I actually clicked it to go to your OP to see if there was more. And this line caught my eye; "Nearly five years into this social experiment..." It made me think for a minute, I'm not judging. The only result I see is you exposed her to both kinds of toys and she goes towards the girly ones even with boys toys around. Thus meaning, kids do actually figure it out on there own.

Maybe it's because I have a standing dare that I'll wear the Go Red for Women dress if my Heart Walk team comes in first and I've let her dress me up without hesitation. There are videos out there of her painting my nails and face while I wore a wig and a pink tutu.
Not having a daughter at the time, I honestly don't know how I would deal with the situations you have to deal with.

The fact that you went that long without watching Rocky Horror Picture Show makes me sad. Seems odd that you had/have less exposure to this stuff in Atlanta than I do/did in rural Kentucky.
I googled it to see what it was. While its Punk Rockish, its not not my cup of tea, I don't know if the whole movie is a musical, like the clip I saw.(I did find it interesting how Laverne Cox is going to be in the squeal, I guess there is a message behind the movie...) Anyways I grew up listening to Lynerd Skynerd and C.C.R., while watching In Living Color, Martin and the Dukes of Hazzard.
Now, I did grow up knowing what gay is, we had gay neighbors, who my parents got along with. So around 8 I was taught about homosexuality. But I honestly never saw a transgender person till after high school, when I was parting for a few years.

Our sex ed was very basic in middle school and the only sex ed we got, it pretty much covered STD's with pictures and how to prevent them. Nothing about gender identity. Seemed more like a scare tactic to not have sex at all.

Now, since you've been to Georgia for the Petit LeMans, I have a question. Did you stop anywhere in Atlanta or just come down directly to Road Atlanta in Braselton(which is not Atlanta)? The reason I ask is, if you go anywhere 30 minutes to an hour outside of Atlanta, you can see things change, race wise and gender preference wise. The municipality of Atlanta might be up with the times, but our rural areas are 20-25 years behind schedule. And their laws reflect it.
Now while I claim the East Atlanta Slums and many others do, we are not actually part of Atlanta, we're our own city called Decatur. Funny enough, you cross Memorial Drive and you go from 50 year old run down apartments, to 100+ year old million dollar mansions in a historical registered city, called Avondale Estates. Also if you take Memorial west for a few miles you'll be in Atlanta.

My point is Georgia is not up with the times at all, regardless of our capital.

If your choice is that or a gas station bathroom on the side of the building with a broken door though...
I'll use a Coke bottle or pee on the side of the store for not having a proper restroom. :lol:
 
Last edited:
Figured what out?
I guess gender identity. I know it sounds weird after what I said in the ESPY thread, but as I said there I am willing to learn. My dad was just like his in a respect, but you see how times have changed.
 
Force vs options - which one do you think more befits having actively removed "girl stuff"?
Quote me where I say I forced or actively removed anything. I took no dolls out of her hands. I didn't make her play with any kind of certain toys.

Your characterization of my parenting is completely incorrect and unsubstantiated. You read what you wanted for whatever reason you have that made you think you could play gotcha...again.

You don't have to answer. I know you will requote the part where I said I went out of my way to avoid the focus, maybe some of the other things you call "indoctrination" and "coercion" and say that while I didn't use the word force or actively remove that the implication is still there. I'll attempt to explain what it really means. You'll create some reason to say it still implies what you claim.

After reading what @LeMansAid quoted you saying almost 2 years ago, I actually clicked it to go to your OP to see if there was more. And this line caught my eye; "Nearly five years into this social experiment..." It made me think for a minute, I'm not judging.
It wasn't a literal social experiment, but I'm sure you understand that. No controls, no notebooks, just a dad trying to expose his daughter to his interests so I don't have to pretend to enjoy tea parties to connect with her before she turns into a teenager and acts like I've ruined her life by merely existing.

We've still had a good share of tea parties, but she does like to do things like ComicCon too. Oddly, she took to the stuff I wasn't trying to get her to like. She took one look at superheroes and fell in love with the idea.

The only result I see is you exposed her to both kinds of toys and she goes towards the girly ones even with boys toys around. Thus meaning, kids do actually figure it out on there own.
I don't know how much is figuring it out on her own vs. grandparents, school, and other social influences. She occasionally comes home with a random new interest purely because someone at school was telling her about it.

Not having a daughter at the time, I honestly don't know how I would deal with the situations you have to deal with.
There's a lot of "huh?" and "what?" and asking my wife what just happened.

But the embarrassing father-of-a-daughter moments, like dress up, I have turned into fun fundraising stuff for my Heart Walk stuff. I tell her I'll do it, and put a video on Facebook if we can get people to donate a certain amount of money. That was a $500 tutu. She has her fun and learns about charity and helping others at the same time, and I feel more connected than if I were just doing a tea party and hoping it will end soon.

Her newest thing are weird challenges that she sees on You Tube. Apparently, we will be trying to explode a watermelon with rubber bands and eating weird foods.

I googled it to see what it was. While its Punk Rockish, its not not my cup of tea, I don't know if the whole movie is a musical, like the clip I saw.(I did find it interesting how Laverne Cox is going to be in the squeal, I guess there is a message behind the movie...) Anyways I grew up listening to Lynerd Skynerd and C.C.R., while watching In Living Color, Martin and the Dukes of Hazzard.
I got both sides. There was MASH, Mama's Family, ALF, etc. I also got cult films and British TV. I can talk about Little Joe Cartwright as easily as I can David Lister. I loved Young Guns in 1988 and Bill & Ted in 1989.

Someone in college once commented on my lack of consistency in what I like. I had a music playlist that went straight from Korn to Dido to Led Zeppelin.

Now, since you've been to Georgia for the Petit LeMans, I have a question. Did you stop anywhere in Atlanta or just come down directly to Road Atlanta in Braselton(which is not Atlanta)?
I've been to Atlanta for non-race reasons, and the trip via Interstate requires driving through Atlanta. We once took the wives and added an extra day checking stuff out and I was there a few times as a kid. My dad was a Coca-Cola collector, so he had to go. Most of it has been north of Atlanta, but I have seen the difference. Atlanta to Lake Lanier/Braselton area definitely has changes, and they change even more as you get into the mountains (We ditched the interstate route five years ago. Adding two hours of sitting on 285 was killing me.). I honestly believe the only thing keeping that area viable are bikers. The Cabbage Patch Hospital just doesn't have the draw it used to. Good barbecue and peanuts though.

I never really considered Decatur outside Atlanta. Things inside the 285 Perimeter are more grown up than Kentucky's biggest city. But Louisville has the Highlands, a fairly progressive neighborhood that does little judging and they've spread out into the surrounding areas since I was a teen. They also had the only decent record store in town, so that might be where I got my exposure.
 
Quote me where I say I forced or actively removed anything. I took no dolls out of her hands. I didn't make her play with any kind of certain toys.

Your characterization of my parenting is completely incorrect and unsubstantiated. You read what you wanted for whatever reason you have that made you think you could play gotcha...again.

You don't have to answer. I know you will requote the part where I said I went out of my way to avoid the focus, maybe some of the other things you call "indoctrination" and "coercion" and say that while I didn't use the word force or actively remove that the implication is still there. I'll attempt to explain what it really means. You'll create some reason to say it still implies what you claim.
Maybe I'm reading it incorrectly, but thanks for assuming that I'm being a pain for pain's sake.

"In the case of my daughter, I specifically went out of my way to avoid a focus on princesses and baby dolls for the first year or two. I did this to the point of putting away gifts of this nature. Her very first stuffed animal was a dinosaur. Her first toy was a car. She has Megablocks and access to video games. Before she was born I would play racecar engine sounds on my wife's stomach. I would have her sit with me to watch car races. We take her to railroad museums and car shows."

My take away - The whole point of your post was to assert that girls and boys are innately drawn to specifically different things to each other. Given that, I'm left to think that your choices were deliberately pro "male"-centric and anti "female"-centric. I only used the word indoctrination to be dramatic, but you did make considered choices in an attempt to steer her away from what you believed she was predisposed to. When I read post #7325 I thought it was odd considering what I remembered of the post I dredged up. It came across as though you're now suggesting that your daughter naturally went for a balance of typically male and typically female behaviours.

So have we conceded that this thread has become the daddy/daughter thread then? If not, do you want to explain why post #7262 went to the America thread?
 
Last edited:
Maybe I'm reading it incorrectly, but thanks for assuming that I'm being a pain for pain's sake.

"In the case of my daughter, I specifically went out of my way to avoid a focus on princesses and baby dolls for the first year or two. I did this to the point of putting away gifts of this nature. Her very first stuffed animal was a dinosaur. Her first toy was a car. She has Megablocks and access to video games. Before she was born I would play racecar engine sounds on my wife's stomach. I would have her sit with me to watch car races. We take her to railroad museums and car shows."
Still looking for that force you mentioned.

I'll say this much for you, you fully meet my expectations.

So have we conceded that this thread has become the daddy/daughter thread then? If not, do you want to explain why post #7262 went to the America thread?
You mean the one where I point out that my daughter recognizes governmental authority comes from force?

Nope, nothing related to politics or things I've discussed in this thread.

EDIT: And what does that have to do with any of this anyway? The two posts are completely irrelevant to each other. But if you feel I'm posting in some kind of improper way, the report button is in the top-right corner of the post.
 
Last edited:
Still looking for that force you mentioned.
Use a different word if you like. Whatever it takes to get you to address the actual point, instead of sidestepping via a technicality. I just used the terms that @Exorcet used, to make it directly responsive. You doctored her experience in these ways based on nothing other (ie. not safety, etc.) than attempting to have her forsake what would be by your judgement, her natural choices. I don't think it's bad, I just think that it amounts to effectively having taught gender stereotypes, and that it's therefore a bit rich to then flaunt your daughter's supposed lack of gender stereotype awareness.
I'll say this much for you, you fully meet my expectations.
Credit where credit's due. I am a fan of a well executed blatant insult, presented incognito. Well done.
You mean the one where I point out that my daughter recognizes governmental authority comes from force?
Nope, nothing related to politics or things I've discussed in this thread.
Maybe the word force is the real stumbling block on both of these topics then. You must be using the America-specific version. I know that our government uses quaintly written letters, politely requesting that we respect their authority. They even dot the "i"s with love hearts. Yes, not universal at all, so entirely logical on your part.
 
Since the story is based in the San Francisco area...

The Guardian today unpublishes 13 stories by San Francisco-based freelance writer Joseph Mayton for fabrication (yellow journalism). The Guardian, who Mayton had worked for since 2009 to 2015, accused him of fabricating quotes and entire articles upon a review of 64 stories and opinion pieces that he had a byline by an independent fact-checker after several of Mayton's "sources" contacted the site to notify them that they had no formal contact with the writer.

The Guardian said in a note to readers:

The Guardian
“In an investigation that included approximately 50 interviews, our fact-checker found articles that contained likely or confirmed fabrication, including stories about two events that organizers said he didn’t attend. Dozens of sources could not be found – either they had no online presence or they were anonymous and could not be substantiated – and several people quoted in Mayton’s articles either denied speaking with him or giving the quotes attributed to them.”

Mayton has also freelanced for The Daily Beast and the Palo Alto Daily Post, among other publications, and only the Palo Alto Daily Post has publicly confirmed that Mayton's work from Feb. 8th to May 12th is getting a review.

A list of edits and removals that The Guardian made on Mayton's articles.

Source
 
Huh, doesn't look like a hard crash.
Told you he ditched it. Flew along the ground before ejecting. I didn't even know that you could eject at that low altitude. If his parachute wouldn't have opened he'd have been screwed. I thought you're supposed to climb as much as possible and then eject. That's why this story is amazing.
 
Back