America - The Official Thread

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Is that okay with you? Why?
I wouldn't be jumping at shadows and calling is fascism. Canberra leaks like a sieve, and it's usually because someone within the government thinks that the government is doing a pretty poor job.

What do you think is more likely: the covert encroachment of a fascistic police state, or a whistleblower within the government who knew that Flynn compromised his position and the Trump administration was willing to cover it up?
 
I wouldn't be jumping at shadows and calling is fascism. Canberra leaks like a sieve, and it's usually because someone within the government thinks that the government is doing a pretty poor job.

What do you think is more likely: the covert encroachment of a fascistic police state, or a whistleblower within the government who knew that Flynn compromised his position and the Trump administration was willing to cover it up?
The former. Whistleblowers get killed, imprisoned, run to Russia or Ecuadorian embassies.
 
Whistleblowers get killed, imprisoned, run to Russia or Ecuadorian embassies.
So you do it anonymously.

If this is the onset of a police state, then it would have to be the worst police state ever because it cracked down on a government figure, not an opponent. Burning Flynn gets them nothing.
 
Be careful about making broad, sweeping declarations like this. The reality is that you're unlikely to ever have this position tested, so I wouldn't take it for granted that the citizenry is willing to die to defend it.

He didn't say all citizens. I read it to mean some. Out of 300 million people, I think it's fair to say that there are at least two non-military citizens willing to die for the Constitution.

Flynn's communications were penetrated and leaked by parties unknown (not the public). Is that okay with you? Why?

Yep. If secret information that is relevant to the public interest is made public, I'm fine with that. If it's in the process of internal power struggles within the government, so be it.

Frankly, if the government is going to be petty and backstabbing like that I'd rather that they did it in at least a moderately public fashion. Better than backroom deals and handshakes that no one ever knows about.
 
Out of 300 million people, I think it's fair to say that there are at least two non-military citizens willing to die for the Constitution.
In its current form, maybe. But it's a sweeping declaration that does stand up to scrutiny. Look at the conditions required for the scenario he floated to come about: the military has to fail completely. In order for that to happen, society would have to undergo radical upheavals. Who's to say that the Constitution would be able to support and protect the citizens in that case? Who's to say that it would even be relevant to them?

If secret information that is relevant to the public interest is made public, I'm fine with that.
Indeed.

Assume for the sake of argument that Flynn committed a crime for which he could be indicted. And assume that the Trump administration tried to cover it up for whatever reason. Sure, leaking that information to the press amounts to a crime. But what's the bigger crime: a senior advisor to the President Elect overstepping the bounds of his authority and potentially compromising national security, or an anonymous tipster revealing the extent of Flynn's actions when the government would rather keep it quiet? I would argue that anyone in the government with knowledge of misconduct in said government has a responsibility to inform the public, even if doing so is technically a crime.

It's like what Kennedy said in "The President and the Press" (and I am paraphrasing here) - whistleblowers should be celebrated, not silenced.
 
whistleblowers should be celebrated, not silenced.
Are you celebrating Assange and Snowden? No, you are celebrating the CIA and the NSA. You, and perhaps the rest of us one-world neocons would prefer a stable permanent "cryptocracy" government rather than a mercurial elected government subject to a vote of the unwashed every 4 years. :lol:


 
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A squabble amongst rich white men?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/15/...medium=referral&utm_campaign=pubexchange&_r=0
16intel-master768.jpg

Stephen A. Feinberg, right, a founder of Cerberus Capital Management, at the Capitol in December 2008. He is said to be in talks for a White House role examining the country’s intelligence agencies.
 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...n-at-texas-courthouse/?utm_term=.195f0d52c4d9

Immigration showed up at a court hearing for protective order for a woman who was a victim of domestic abuse. Not the right move if you ask me, we don't want to create a violent under culture of illegal immigrants who feel they have no recourse from the law. This is part of the reason drug laws result in so much violence, you can't go to the police when your drug deal goes south, so you arm to the teeth. If all illegal immigrants feel they can't go to the police for any crimes, they will take the necessary steps to defend themselves, and we end up with a lot of violent crime.
 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...n-at-texas-courthouse/?utm_term=.195f0d52c4d9

Immigration showed up at a court hearing for protective order for a woman who was a victim of domestic abuse. Not the right move if you ask me, we don't want to create a violent under culture of illegal immigrants who feel they have no recourse from the law. This is part of the reason drug laws result in so much violence, you can't go to the police when your drug deal goes south, so you arm to the teeth. If all illegal immigrants feel they can't go to the police for any crimes, they will take the necessary steps to defend themselves, and we end up with a lot of violent crime.
It's a slippery slope but you have to draw the line somewhere. If the information contained in the article is true, she's an illegal immigrant with a criminal record that includes arrests for assault, violating probation, domestic violence, false imprisonment and possession of stolen mail. She had also been previously deported. Where do you draw the line? If she was there reporting the theft of her son's bicycle, would you just let her immigration status slide? What if she's reporting her car stolen instead? What if she's in a bar fight and "innocent" but questioned as a witness? How do you decide which criminal involvement necessitates setting aside citizenship status and which doesn't?
 
How do you decide which criminal involvement necessitates setting aside citizenship status and which doesn't?

By "criminal involvement" here you mean which crimes she's been a victim of right? Not which crimes she's guilty of. And if so, that's one of the more derogatory ways of referring to a crime victim I can think of. I would say that it would be smart to adopt a policy where we don't send immigration after anyone who is reporting a crime or claiming victimhood of a crime because of coming forward. I think we should advertise that too - that cops should be forbidden to share information about victims with immigration officials.

People convicted (not accused) of crimes though should be deported (extridited?) immediately if they're here illegally. Immigration should also be allowed to deport someone who is a victim of a crime if they were going to do so anyway.

I'm advocating for a bright line for crime victims where cops simply do not turn that information over.

Now, if immigration was looking for you anyway, and your name pops up and makes it easy for them to find you. Fine. And maybe that was the case in this situation.
 
Who can run for President is defined in the Constitution. Your constitution (Swiss? Swedish? Russian? ...same difference really) is the same as the American one, they're all pretty much the same right, so I assume all your Presidents/Prime Ministers are millionaires too correct?

I do not need to be rich to be selected as a PM. Our PM today is basically a welder.
All I need to do is Join a Party and by having worked hard and earned trust of my colleges of the party and the public at large so that I become an important name to be put on the ballot when the country goes voting.

Or I need to create a new party with those that think like me for a change, this would take some more effort and money until it would get a large amount of votes.

Or if large amount of people wright my name on the ballot, I can be chosen to represent the people.

That basically is it.
I dont need to be rich and do not need to be born in Sweden, only a citizen.


The sad part is you're so often moving them, you don't even realize it.

Here's a simple example: let's say I've never read anything about Swedish history. I then tell you what I believe to be an accurate re-telling of the country's history. When you attempt to correct the errors in my recounting, I tell you that these corrections are unimportant: I've got a general idea of the history of a few other countries, and all countries are pretty much the same anyway, so Sweden's history is really not any different from, say, Australia's.

Do you see the problem yet?

You are discussing something without knowledge of that thing. You repeatedly justify this with massive generalizations about large groups of people (the military, the entire earthly population), or with ridiculous statements you know are false (unless you'd like to point to a post in here that really has referred to the Constitution as either holy or magical).

Either you're doing this intentionally — so yeah, behaviour in-line with the sort that lives under bridges — or you don't actually realize how erroneous and incredibly ignorant this is. But it's getting increasingly harder to buy the latter.

no that is a far fetched example. All I really said was that a piece of paper will not save anyone's rights if no one is willing to fight for it. And then hell broke out. People started saying you dont know the constitution, something like that would never happened. Mmm right... What prisonermonkey said so brilliantly is what I have claimed/stuck to all the time:

In its current form, maybe. But it's a sweeping declaration that does stand up to scrutiny. Look at the conditions required for the scenario he floated to come about: the military has to fail completely. In order for that to happen, society would have to undergo radical upheavals. Who's to say that the Constitution would be able to support and protect the citizens in that case? Who's to say that it would even be relevant to them?

That is what I have been talking about all this time, but noooo, the answers I got in return seems to assert/allege that because every American knows the US Constitutions by heart this would never happen. And because I am no American and cant the Constitution I have not right to talk about The US Constitution because it is so holy and sacred. And when many here just ignore some of my questions and focus on stuff that does not even matter at all for my arguments sake ie twisting my words out of context just like when someone someone stated that I called all with mental issues criminals.. That is like so low...

Even the notion that what the constitution is saying/promising is not even what I am questioning about.

Just like prisonermonkeys post, bad stuff happens.. Who would dare to do anything about a crisis. I doubt even 33% in any modern country would stand up to some kind of oppression. Maybe USA is different, but the thing is citizens in USA have not had to overcome struggles like people in Europe during world war two or those that fought for getting free from communism or those counties that are fighting right now. How can any of you with certainly say that most Americans would act ie just do nothing in time of crisis.

Like I have said I have nothing against USA but I do like to criticise it for its flaws, would we talk about Sweden or Poland I would not hold back either. Freedom of speech is worth more than gold :D
 
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The Deep State is the big story of our time. "It is how we had deregulation, financialization of the economy, the Wall Street bust, the erosion or our civil liberties and perpetual war"

Libertarian Ron Paul interviews Mike Lofgren, author of The Deep State.


Bill Moyers interviews Lofgren on The Deep State


Styxhexenhammer on the Deep State
 
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That is what I have been talking about all this time, but noooo, the answers I got in return seems to assert/allege that because every American knows the US Constitutions by heart this would never happen.

Citation needed.

And because I am no American and cant the Constitution I have not right to talk about The US Constitution because it is so holy and sacred.


Citation needed.

And when many here just ignore some of my questions and focus on stuff that does not even matter at all for my arguments sake ie twisting my words out of context

Citation needed.

Edit: Still waiting for a single example of a constitution with an equivalent of the 10th amendment.
 
Are you celebrating Assange and Snowden? No, you are celebrating the CIA and the NSA.
Intelligence is neither good nor bad - it is only as good or bad as its users. Spying on every mobile phone on the planet is a bad thing. Exposing the questionable things governments do is a good thing.

Trump doesn't get a free pass because he's the President. Especially since the intelligence agencies uncovered Flynn's actions during the election while looking for evidence that Russia was behind the DNC email leaks. Flynn did not have the authority to approach the Russians, and his advice to them - to ignore sanctions because Trump would be lenient - came at a time when Russia and the United States were in disagreement over Syria.

You, and perhaps the rest of us one-world neocons would prefer a stable permanent "cryptocracy" government
A couple of weeks ago, I pointed out that there was no evidence of a child sex ring operating out of a DC pizzeria, and so an investigation was impractical because it would go nowhere; you responded by suggesting that I had no problem with the existence of child sexual slavery.

Now I am defending a whistleblower who leaked evidence of government wrongdoing, and suddenly you're accusing me of being a neo-con (seriously, everyone knows that I'm a left-leaning centrist in danger of falling off the precipice at the edge of centrism) and wanting a fascistic worldwide government supported by the shadowy architecture of mass surveillance.
 
Are you celebrating Assange and Snowden? No, you are celebrating the CIA and the NSA. You, and perhaps the rest of us one-world neocons would prefer a stable permanent "cryptocracy" government rather than a mercurial elected government subject to a vote of the unwashed every 4 years. :lol:

Sorry, what? That seems like some pretty big assumptions to be throwing around about people.
 
Flynn did not have the authority to approach the Russians, and his advice to them - to ignore sanctions because Trump would be lenient - came at a time when Russia and the United States were in disagreement over Syria.

As far as I know, Flynn did nothing illegal, he was only doing his job. Remember, he was vetted by the FBI for his position in the cabinet!! Trump fired him for dissembling to Pence.:rolleyes: The wrong was committed when his communications were penetrated and leaked to the press. I expect the crime will be investigated and the guilty person(s) exposed, charged and prosecuted.

The big story of our time is The Deep State. There is a state of war between President Trump and The Deep State. I expect The Deep State will see to his death, impeachment or otherwise hammering into a malleable state of submission. It will be fun seeing Trump trying to fight them.
 
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As far as I know, Flynn did nothing illegal, he was only doing his job.
The Logan Act prohibits civilians from carrying out diplomacy on behalf of the United States.

Furthermore, the contact with the Russians emerged during the campaign - like I said, the intelligence agencies were looking for evidence that Russia was behind the DNC email leaks. So at the time, Flynn could not even promise that he would be in a position to follow through on Trump's willingness to be lenient towards Russia.

Flynn apparently told the Russians not to respond to sanctions imposed by Obama. So for one, he has undermined Obama's then-presidential authority. More to the point, his actions could have gone against the national interest; Russia and the United States were in disagreement over Syria (and the Ukraine), so Russia could have easily taken Flynn's advance as carte blanche to do as they pleased, with little to no fear of consequence.

Finally, in lying to Pence, Flynn compromised his position as national security advisor. If the Russians knew he lied, they could have used that to influence him once Trump took office. On top of that, Trump apparently knew that Flynn had lied and was willing to let it go because he thought Flynn could survive unscathed.

Any one of those things is in the public interest to know, much less all four.
 
The Logan Act prohibits civilians from carrying out diplomacy on behalf of the United States.

Furthermore, the contact with the Russians emerged during the campaign - like I said, the intelligence agencies were looking for evidence that Russia was behind the DNC email leaks. So at the time, Flynn could not even promise that he would be in a position to follow through on Trump's willingness to be lenient towards Russia.

Flynn apparently told the Russians not to respond to sanctions imposed by Obama. So for one, he has undermined Obama's then-presidential authority. More to the point, his actions could have gone against the national interest; Russia and the United States were in disagreement over Syria (and the Ukraine), so Russia could have easily taken Flynn's advance as carte blanche to do as they pleased, with little to no fear of consequence.

Finally, in lying to Pence, Flynn compromised his position as national security advisor. If the Russians knew he lied, they could have used that to influence him once Trump took office. On top of that, Trump apparently knew that Flynn had lied and was willing to let it go because he thought Flynn could survive unscathed.

Any one of those things is in the public interest to know, much less all four.
The Logan Act is a dead letter. No one has ever been prosecuted under this act, and no one ever will. If Flynn did wrong, I expect him to be prosecuted. Period. Will he be? No. Ergo, he did no wrong. In fact, he did well if he somehow influenced Putin to be the better man than Obama.:)

But the biggest story of our time is The Deep State. President Trump has locked horns with The Deep State. I expect The Deep State will see to his death, impeachment, resignation or otherwise hammering into a malleable state of submission. It will be fun seeing Trump trying to fight them.

James Bond: "Do you expect me to talk?"

Ernst Stavro Blofeld: "No, Mr Bond, I expect you to die!"
 
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But the biggest story of our time is The Deep State. President Trump has locked horns with The Deep State. I expect The Deep State will see to his death, impeachment, resignation or otherwise hammering into a malleable state of submission. It will be fun seeing Trump trying to fight them.
It's hilarious reading some of your comments on Erdoğan and Turkey, given that Erdoğan is similarly convinced of the existence of the deep state and all of his crackdowns have been aimed at destroying it.
 
It's hilarious reading some of your comments on Erdoğan and Turkey, given that Erdoğan is similarly convinced of the existence of the deep state and all of his crackdowns have been aimed at destroying it.
I don't recall making any recent comments on Turkey and the Goat Lover. Could you refresh my memory by citing them, please? And if you would be so kind, please review my post #9973. Thank you so much.
 
I watched that news conference today. I do not recall Trump talking about blowing the Russian ship out of the water. Is it possible the "transcript" is in error? But maybe he did, and I simply missed it. It was a lengthy press conference, mainly memorable for lambasting the press and fake news.
 
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That is one of the only things I remember from that game.

You don't remember fighting multiple hordes of mass bi-pedal machines with just a nikita rocket launcher... Shame on you Brett, I bet if I asked you anything SW related you'd never miss :sly:
 
You don't remember fighting multiple hordes of mass bi-pedal machines with just a nikita rocket launcher... Shame on you Brett, I bet if I asked you anything SW related you'd never miss :sly:

Well that is a little unfair, I have watched all of the Star Wars movies in the last couple of years. I have not played MGS2 since 2002 or 2003. :lol:
 
I watched that news conference today. I do not recall Trump talking about blowing the Russian ship out of the water. Is it possible the "transcript" is in error? But maybe he did, and I simply missed it. It was a lengthy press conference, mainly memorable for lambasting the press and fake news.

I watched the whole thing, it was like a Brass Eye script. At one point Mrs. Ten turned to me and said "this would be really funny if it wasn't real".
 
It's not only bad, but the worst by any metric in history.

-----

Poll: Mainstream Media continues to lose public's trust

WASHINGTON (Sinclair Broadcast Group) -- While many mainstream media outlets have cried foul over Donald Trump targeting outlets as "failing" or peddling "fake news," that sentiment is largely shared by a majority of Americans.

In its annual confidence poll, Gallup found that Americans' trust in the mass media "to report the news fully, accurately and fairly" reached its lowest level in polling history, with only 32 percent saying they have a great deal or fair amount of trust in the media. Trust in the establishment media did not begin with the contentious 2016 election and Donald Trump taking the stage, but after a steady decline over the past 20 years, it took its deepest dive yet, led by Republicans deep distrust of mass media.


The rest here:
http://wjla.com/news/nation-world/ma...-publics-trust
 
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