America - The Official Thread

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I heard some of the press conference on the radio, joining it in progress when Trump called Chuck Schumer a "lightweight", at which I burst out laughing. I recall him saying that tomorrow the press will say he's ranting and raving but he insisted he wasn't and that he was having a good time. Undeterred, CNN already has the following headlines:lol::

Trump Lashes Out

Trump's Presser was Unhinged​
 
Could you refresh my memory by citing them, please?
You know perfectly well that I am talking about the Turkey thread. Just because you haven't mentioned Erdoğan here, that doesn't mean that your opinions on him aren't relevant. Here you are, anticipating Trump taking on the "deep state" while you have been critical of the way Erdoğan runs Turkey despite him justifying his actions as necessary to take on the deep state.

And if you would be so kind, please review my post #9973.
I have. I would like to print out a transcript of those interviews because I have run out of toilet paper. It's a mix of fringe politics and conspiracy theorism and utter garbage.
 
I heard some of the press conference on the radio, joining it in progress when Trump called Chuck Schumer a "lightweight", at which I burst out laughing.

Me too.

I recall him saying that tomorrow the press will say he's ranting and raving but he insisted he wasn't and that he was having a good time. Undeterred, CNN already has the following headlines:lol::

Trump Lashes Out

Trump's Presser was Unhinged​

"Lashing out" doesn't mean ranting and raving. The presser was unhinged and, despite his unsurprising denial of it, he was ranting and he is raving. Stark raving. That doesn't mean that the CNN headline took that point on directly... I sometimes think that you like to disagree with them just for the sake of it.
 
Me too.

"Lashing out" doesn't mean ranting and raving. The presser was unhinged and, despite his unsurprising denial of it, he was ranting and he is raving. Stark raving. That doesn't mean that the CNN headline took that point on directly... I sometimes think that you like to disagree with them just for the sake of it.
We must be operating with different dictionaries.
 
I would like to print out a transcript of those [Deep State] interviews because I have run out of toilet paper. It's a mix of fringe politics and conspiracy theorism and utter garbage.

So now that you have condemned Ron Paul and Bill Moyers as fringe conspiracy theorists and utter garbage, I'm delighted to present you with the priceless, once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to do the same thing to Foreign Policy, The Atlantic, Salon and Counterpunch. Please feel free to jump in deeper with both feet. For a supposedly educated literary man, you are surprisingly reluctant to accept that the term and concept of "Deep State" has been with us for a long, long time. But don't worry, I'll make it my mission to work with you on this.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/02/15/trump-is-showing-how-the-deep-state-really-works/

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/02/american-deep-state-trump/516780/

http://www.salon.com/2016/01/05/con...officials_are_at_the_mercy_of_the_deep_state/

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/10...ericas-shadow-government-and-its-silent-coup/
 
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Well that is a little unfair, I have watched all of the Star Wars movies in the last couple of years. I have not played MGS2 since 2002 or 2003. :lol:

Neither have I, I just have a good memory, plus it's my favorite franchise next to hitman. Either way it was a joke which you obviously got as well.
 
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Intelligence is neither good nor bad - it is only as good or bad as its users. Spying on every mobile phone on the planet is a bad thing. Exposing the questionable things governments do is a good thing.

Trump doesn't get a free pass because he's the President. Especially since the intelligence agencies uncovered Flynn's actions during the election while looking for evidence that Russia was behind the DNC email leaks. Flynn did not have the authority to approach the Russians, and his advice to them - to ignore sanctions because Trump would be lenient - came at a time when Russia and the United States were in disagreement over Syria.
Oh my, that's quite a 180 you've pulled considering how you had issue with Assange/Wikileaks revealing Hillary & the Democrats' secrets during the election. Now it's a good thing because Trump is at the center of govt. leaks.
 
Now it's a good thing because Trump is at the center of govt. leak
No, it's a good thing because it's exposing government wrongdoing, not trying to manipulate the system for personal political gain.

For a supposedly educated literary man, you are surprisingly reluctant to accept that the term and concept of "Deep State" has been with us for a long, long time.
Oh, I get the idea behind it. I just struggle to accept the existence of a far-reaching malignant entity that is at once invisible and onmipresent, an anathema to democracy lurking in the very halls of political power. It's little more than a bogeyman for naïve idealogues.
 
No, it's a good thing because it's exposing government wrongdoing, not trying to manipulate the system for personal political gain.
Yeah, we're not going down that road again b/c you never could prove it the first time you made that claim. 3 times I brought a post with contrary evidence & you ducked out.

Last I checked, Assange didn't receive any personal political gain either considering he's still in the same spot he's been in.
 
LOL okay. Still can't prove it.
Dotini is busy going off the deep end, raving about sinister and pervasive governmental conspiracies like Hideo Kojima after breaking into Alex Jones' personal stash, and I'm the guy with the wild theories?
 
Dotini is busy going off the deep end, raving about sinister and pervasive governmental conspiracies like Hideo Kojima after breaking into Alex Jones' personal stash, and I'm the guy with the wild theories?
You tell us.

WikiLeaks: Hillary & the DNC have been shown committing questionable acts during the election.
You: Assange should be silenced! He's trying to influence the election!

Right up your alley to have such silly logic. One side has evidence of corruption of the other, but you wanted the person with the evidence prosecuted for "corruption" instead.

@LMSCorvetteGT2 already saw your dumb turncoat coming months ago.
I find this disturbing in the sense that if it were Trump, you'd be all for it. Can you at some point find equilibrium and become impartial? Assange has given a more truthful narrative to the American public then without him, there is no doubt half of what we know now would still be just suggestive, rather than verified. It was hinted from DNC insiders that Bernie Sanders was purposely getting the deck stacked against him, now we have it verified and people were fired or resigned, that's progress. How you define progress going about, I couldn't care less, be it official justice or this vigilante-ish type method is neither hear nor there in my eyes.
 
You tell us.
I just did. The difference is that one was leaked for personal political gain, and the other was not.

you wanted the person with the evidence prosecuted for "corruption" instead.
No, I thought that the person with the evidence should release all of the evidence, not just the evidence with the potential to deliver them the best outcome.
 
I just did. The difference is that one was leaked for personal political gain, and the other was not.

No, I thought that the person with the evidence should release all of the evidence, not just the evidence with the potential to deliver them the best outcome.
Again, you could never prove this nor address the fact you had no issue/comment about the Left showing evidence of attempting to corrupt the election, only the messenger.

So yes.
I'm the guy with the wild theories
 
the fact you had no issue/comment about the Left showing evidence of attempting to corrupt the election
Change "left" for "right", and you describe half the people in this thread. Why aren't you attacking them for not commenting on the political right trying to corrupt the election? Or do you still believe that Clinton has vascular dementia and only a year to live?
 
Change "left" for "right", and you describe half the people in this thread.
We're not talking about anyone else in this thread.
Why aren't you attacking them for not commenting on the political right trying to corrupt the election?
Piss poor attempt to shift the spotlight onto someone else.

I'm calling out you because you believe it's okay to leak the government doing questionable things involving Trump's administration, but leaking Clinton's, it was an attempt to influence the election, an argument you have not even attempted to prove.

Feel free to let me know when someone has sent you a secret message to not discuss the topic anymore so you have an out to this discussion.
 
I'm calling out you because you believe it's okay to leak the government doing questionable things involving Trump's administration, but leaking Clinton's, it was an attempt to influence the election, an argument you have not even attempted to prove.
Assange himself said that if anything happened to him during the campaign, he'd release more damaging materials.
 
Assange himself said that if anything happened to him during the campaign, he'd release more damaging materials.
He had his internet shut off at 1 point. Didn't see any mass leak of any more "damaging materials". Just a lot of hype on Twitter that amounted to nothing.

There's proof the DNC intentionally wanted to nominate Clinton instead of getting Bernie a fair shot. There's no proof from you Assange intentionally wanted to influence the election.
 
16730231_10155796160159951_1637291663257897214_n.jpg


The parallels between Nixon and Trump are few, but it does seem rather interesting that Trump is (seemingly) being targeted by 'the deep state' and Nixon was brought down by an informant from within the FBI, nicknamed 'Deep Throat'. Incidentally, the film 'Nixon' is an interesting (if somewhat sympathetic) depiction of his presidency - the film about Deep Throat, on the other hand, was nothing like what I was expecting :ill:
 
Incidentally, the film 'Nixon' is an interesting (if somewhat sympathetic) depiction of his presidency - the film about Deep Throat, on the other hand, was nothing like what I was expecting
Harold Simons, the managing editor of The Washington Post at the time chose the pseudonym "Deep Throat" because of the film - it was controversial and he knew that the allegations against Nixon would also be controversial.
 
Am I correct in thinking that Nixon didn't order, and was not involved in, the break in of the DNC and instead he was only involved in the cover-up operation?

The real story there is that Richard Nixon had the audacity to wiretap politicians instead of the public.
 
it does seem rather interesting that Trump is (seemingly) being targeted by 'the deep state'
There is no deep state. It's a paranoid fantasy, an anathema to democracy conjured up by ineffective politicians to create a scapegoat for their failure to do anything while in power. Got elected on a particular platform, but couldn't pass the legislation to see it through? Blame the deep state. It's a bogeyman for naïve idealogues and a convenient excuse for the cynical. I find it hilarious that so many Americans pride themselves on their opposition to tyranny, and yet here is tyranny manifest in front of them and they are apparently none the wiser to its existence.

I doubt that it's any coincidence that this omnipresent consciousness which has so far remained invisible has inexplicably decided to show itself now. Between the Executive Order being challenged in court, the frequent attacks on the media and the resignation of Flynn, Trump's first month in office has gone off like a wet firecracker. Enter the deep state, a convenient excuse to explain away his ineffectiveness.
 
There is no deep state. It's a paranoid fantasy, an anathema to democracy conjured up by...(me?)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...e-or-creating-his-own/?utm_term=.38520f42462e

imrs.php


For most Americans, the "deep state" is something that exists somewhere else.

It's a phrase often linked to stifling dictatorships, weak democracies and banana republics. When you bring up the "deep state," you are pointing to cabals operating in secret or simply outside the democratic process. When dramatic things happen — a coup d'etat topples a civilian government, a foreign envoy gets killed, an opposition party is put behind bars — whisperers in coffee houses can nod to each other about the hidden forces pulling the strings.

Today's WorldView

What's most important from where the world meets Washington

It's just the second week of the Trump presidency, but it's time to think about the "deep state" in America.

It's not far-fetched to suggest there is a "deep state" in Washington
. Former President Dwight D. Eisenhower looked at the nexus of the Pentagon and arms manufacturers and coined the phrase the "military-industrial complex." Today's observers also point to the collusion of corporate interests and D.C. power brokers as the true guiding hand in American politics.

Leftist journalist and transparency advocate Glenn Greenwald defines the deep state as a "constellation of factions" — say, the intelligence community or big banks — that wield power with little to no public accountability.

"It's basically unified establishment power which, though unelected, can control elected officials and exploit their functions for the benefit of their own interests, usually exerting power in the dark," said Greenwald in an email to Today's WorldView.



http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...94-11e6-a9b0-ecee7ce475fc-20170215-story.html

The fact the nation's now-departed senior guardian of national security was unmoored by a scandal linked to a conversation picked up on a wire offers a rare insight into how exactly America's vaunted Deep State works. It is a story not about rogue intelligence agencies running amok outside the law, but rather about the vast domestic power they have managed to acquire within it.



http://truepundit.com/video-discussion-of-deep-state-erupts-on-fox-business/

WATCH:
[video embedded]
The concept, describing an irreplaceable bureaucracy of professionals and specialists operating beneath public democratic institutions, is well-known in academia but relatively infrequently discussed in popular media. Recent suggestions of extrajudicial involvement by the intelligence community in bringing about the dismissal of former National Security Adviser General Michael Flynn has brought the idea to new prominence.

“The Deep State is not just in the area of security and intelligence, it’s throughout the bureaucracy and right across the board,” explained author and Fox News contributor Steve Hilton. “In all areas of policy, Trump, quite rightly, is going to challenge the thinking of the last few decades.”


Worried by the Flynn affair, Hilton warned that this “Deep State” would continue to resist President Trump’s agenda. “I think we can expect more of this from different bits of the government and he’s got to fight back hard.”

Judge Andrew Napolitano, another panelist, echoed Hilton’s concerns. “I mean the Deep State, it’s not just intelligence, it’s banking, it’s law enforcement, it’s the administrative agencies…It’s the below the radar service of the government that never changes no matter which party runs the White House,” he said, “…The laws have been written to keep them in power.”


 
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"Lashing out" doesn't mean ranting and raving. The presser was unhinged and, despite his unsurprising denial of it, he was ranting and he is raving. Stark raving. That doesn't mean that the CNN headline took that point on directly... I sometimes think that you like to disagree with them just for the sake of it.

But Donald didn't just say he wasn't, he insisted - so it must be true! :lol:
 
Collection of Huffington Post articles over the years on The Deep State

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/deep-state/



Deep State

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The Nuclear Breakfast Menu
Robert Koehler | Posted 08.11.2016 | Politics
Read More: Nuclear Weapons, Mutually Assured Destruction, Donald Trump, Richard Nixon, Cold War, Defense Establishment, Deep State, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Vietnam War, Giant Lance, Politics News


Donald Trump is a reckless fool. But the U.S. defense establishment is M.A.D. And herein lies one of the darker problems with the Trump candidacy, an...

Read Whole Story


A 10-Minute Debate on War
Robert Koehler | Posted 05.26.2016 | Politics
Read More: Donald Trump, Dr. Strangelove, Barbara Lee, Military Budget, War on Terror, Authorization for Use of Military Force, National Defense Authorization Act, Military Industrial Complex, Deep State, Politics News

"Look, nuclear should be off the table. But would there be a time when it could be used? Possibly, possibly . . ." This is -- who else? -- Donald Tru...

Read Whole Story


And If The World Voted In the US Presidential Election?
Pierre Guerlain | Posted 04.18.2016 | World
Read More: Sanders, US Elections, Global Power, Trump, Cruz, Obama, Jill Stein, Inequality, Deep State,Progressivism, Utopia, World News

Sanders is a reminder that this is not only desirable but possible and many of us as global citizens welcome this sudden emergence of an American spring. He embodies the America we like.

Read Whole Story


Welcome to the Age of Authoritarianism: Government of the Politicians, by the Military, for the Corporations
John W. Whitehead | Posted 02.24.2016 | Politics
Read More: Authoritarianism, President Obama, Congress, Supreme Court, Deep State, Shadow Government,Surveillance, Militarized Police, Military Bases, Roman Empire, Politics News

The powers-that-be want us to remain divided, alienated from each other based on our politics, our bank accounts, our religion, our race and our value systems.

Read Whole Story


The Plutocrats Are Winning. Don't Let Them!
Bill Moyers | Posted 12.23.2016 | Politics
Read More: 9/11, Congress, Corporate Tax Dodging, Deep State, General Electric, Lobbying, Omnibus Spending Bill, Plutocracy, Money in Politics, Washington DC, Politics News

After three decades of engineering a winner-take-all economy, and buying the political power to consummate their hold on the wealth created by the system they had rigged in their favor, America's plutocrats have been taking the final and irrevocable step of separating themselves permanently from the common course of American life.

Read Whole Story


Old Demons in New Faces? The 'Deep State' Meets Erdoğan's 'New Turkey'
Karabekir Akkoyunlu | Posted 10.25.2016 | World
Read More: Turkey, Ankara Bombing, Erdogan, Akp, Hdp, Pkk, Syria, Elections, Democracy, Deep State, World News

While this picture reinforces the sense that Turkey is returning to the dark days of the 1990s, there are two reasons why the country's current predicament is also different, and much more dangerous, than it was two decades ago.

Read Whole Story


Rand Paul Eats Obama and Clinton for Lunch on Government Spying
Miles Mogulescu | Posted 06.01.2014 | Politics
Read More: Rand Paul Obama Nsa, Obama Nsa, Church Committee, Rand Paul, Edward Snowden, Hillary-Clinton-Edward-Snowden, Deep State, Rand Paul Nsa, Edward Snowden Nsa, Rand Paul Berkeley, Rand Paul Nsa Spying,Politics News

Clinton is a charter member of the Deep State. Paul is one of the few national politicians who have questioned it. And challenging the Deep State may be the most important issue of our times.

Read Whole Story


Snowden's Lawyer: Forget About Orwell, Worry About Kafka
Michael Winship | Posted 05.12.2014 | Politics
Read More: Nsa, Mass Surveillance, Edward Snowden, Michael Winship, Terrorism, Franz Kafka, Moyers and Company, Bill Moyers, 9/11, Deep State, Ben Wizner, Aclu, War on Terror, Surveillance State, George Orwell, Politics News

"All of this stuff was classified. Not just classified; it was classified at the highest level. These were the secrets that the government said were most critical to keep. But what kind of democracy would we be if the public had never learned of this information?"

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The War on Democracy: The Deep State
Bob Burnett | Posted 05.07.2014 | Politics
Read More: Noam Chomsky, Military Industrial Complex, Military-Industrial Complex, Too Big to Fail, Mike Lofgren,Deep State, The Deep State, Deep Politics, The-Deep-State, Politics News

Over the course of the past decade, the doyens of the left, Peter Dale Scott and Noam Chomsky, began to use the term "deep state" to refer to the relatively small number of Washington and Wall Street player who actually control America.

Read Whole Story


Watch: The Deep State Hiding in Plain Sight
Bill Moyers | Posted 04.26.2014 | Politics
Read More: Civil Liberties, Terrorism, Moyers and Company, 9/11, Bill Moyers, Dark Money, Deep State, Mike Lofgren, Government Contractors, Great Recession, Wall Street, Military-Industrial Complex, Politics News

Everyone knows about the military-industrial complex, which, in his farewell address, President Eisenhower warned had the potential to "endanger our liberties or democratic process" but have you heard of the "Deep State?"

Read Whole Story


Anatomy of the Deep State
Michael S. Lofgren | Posted 04.26.2014 | Politics
Read More: Corruption, Money and Politics, Nsa, Wall Street, Moyers and Company, Mike Lofgren, Deep State,Obama, Dark Money, Bill Moyers, Politics News

There is the visible government situated around the Mall in Washington, and then there is another, more shadowy, more indefinable government that is not explained in Civics 101 or observable to tourists at the White House or the Capitol.

Read Whole Story


The Quiet Coup: No, Not Egypt. Here.
John Tirman | Posted 09.08.2013 | Politics
Read More: Nsa Surveillance, Egypt Coup, Nsa, Nsa Scandal, Nsa Intelligence, Spying Nsa, Deep State, Nsa Prism, Fourth Amendment, Snowden, Politics News

The United States is partially governed by a deep state: undemocratic, secret, aligned with intelligence agencies, spying on friend and foe, lawless in almost every respect. If this doesn't constitute a coup d'etat, it's hard to imagine what would.

Read Whole Story
 
Collection of Huffington Post articles over the years on The Deep State

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/deep-state/

Some of the articles you have posted view your "deep state" much differently than others, and much differently than you do. What is being described is lobbying and corruption in banking, military, and surveillance. And I don't think you'd find a single person on this website who doesn't think that lobbying and corruption exist in all of those industries as well as so many other industries. But to treat this as though it is an organized club, quietly lurking in the background pulling the strings that they all decide should be pulled at secret meetings around a poorly lit table is something else entirely.

2zpmvwo.jpg


So if your "deep state" is just an amalgamation of lots of independent lobbying or coordinated lobbying with temporary convenient partnerships, and corrupt officials... ok, I'm right there with you. Yes that happens in any government whose powers are as extensive as ours have become. If you're suggesting that the "deep state" is an entity, that it has a singular will, that it is organized... no I'm not with you, and I think many of your articles are not with you.

There's another view of the "deep state" (and this is what I hate about this term, because it gets thrown around a lot), which is just vested interest of government employees. They talk about the large agencies of federal employees who have a vested interest in the status quo. Of course IRS employees (for example) would not favor a political movement to abolish the income tax... it could cost a lot fo them their jobs and even threaten their employability outside of the IRS. That's not the "deep state", that's just the "state". That gets referenced as "deep state" in your articles as well, but it's super obvious and right on the surface. There's nothing deep or surprising about it.

In short... it's clear that the "deep state" is being made out to be whatever the person talking wants it to be.
 
What is being described is lobbying and corruption in banking, military, and surveillance. And I don't think you'd find a single person on this website who doesn't think that lobbying and corruption exist in all of those industries as well as so many other industries. But to treat this as though it is an organized club, quietly lurking in the background pulling the strings that they all decide should be pulled at secret meetings around a poorly lit table is something else entirely.
This is what I got from these articles too. Ludlum provides a better read.
 
Some of the articles you have posted view your "deep state" much differently than others, and much differently than you do. What is being described is lobbying and corruption in banking, military, and surveillance. And I don't think you'd find a single person on this website who doesn't think that lobbying and corruption exist in all of those industries as well as so many other industries. But to treat this as though it is an organized club, quietly lurking in the background pulling the strings that they all decide should be pulled at secret meetings around a poorly lit table is something else entirely.

2zpmvwo.jpg


So if your "deep state" is just an amalgamation of lots of independent lobbying or coordinated lobbying with temporary convenient partnerships, and corrupt officials... ok, I'm right there with you. Yes that happens in any government whose powers are as extensive as ours have become. If you're suggesting that the "deep state" is an entity, that it has a singular will, that it is organized... no I'm not with you, and I think many of your articles are not with you.

There's another view of the "deep state" (and this is what I hate about this term, because it gets thrown around a lot), which is just vested interest of government employees. They talk about the large agencies of federal employees who have a vested interest in the status quo. Of course IRS employees (for example) would not favor a political movement to abolish the income tax... it could cost a lot fo them their jobs and even threaten their employability outside of the IRS. That's not the "deep state", that's just the "state". That gets referenced as "deep state" in your articles as well, but it's super obvious and right on the surface. There's nothing deep or surprising about it.

In short... it's clear that the "deep state" is being made out to be whatever the person talking wants it to be.

What about Treadwell? Are you trying to tell me that Jason Bourne is ... fiction?! :confused:
 
There's another view of the "deep state" (and this is what I hate about this term, because it gets thrown around a lot), which is just vested interest of government employees. They talk about the large agencies of federal employees who have a vested interest in the status quo.

Britain has that too, it's called the Civil Service. Whoever's names are on the ministerial doors are merely transitory.

The following is a scene from the documentary edit: fictional comedy called "Yes, Prime Minister". It was considered very accurate at the time... the grey-haired chap is Sir Humphrey Appleby, senior civil servant.

Iirc Thatcher loved it so much she had the VT delivered to Downing Street every week.

 
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