America - The Official Thread

  • Thread starter ///M-Spec
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Biggles
Pretty obviously United uber-stepped the mark on this - locked into an over-reaching sense of authority & entitlement that was communicated to the Aviation Police who then proceeded with fascistic resolve. A more obvious tactic would have been to continue to increase the "compensation" & try harder to find another willing party. I'm going to go out on a limb & predict the law suit & the bad publicity will cost them more than $800. Be interesting to see what happens to United's stock price tomorrow.
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Lots of unfounded assumptions here.
 
Northstar
There won't be any (successful) lawsuit as United did nothing legally wrong
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Maybe not for United but surely whichever company is responsible for the "security officers" will be facing something? Excessive use of force or GBH (I know that's not an offence in the States but you must have something similar).

The officer responsible has been placed "on leave". I hope it doesn't lead to a whitewashed investigation because their airport contract is too juicy.

United might not face any successful lawsuits but I don't agree that overselling should be permitted and they deserve all the negative publicity they get for not denouncing this at the first instance.
 
Sanji Himura
@Northstar He can sure as hell go after the two cops that got him off the plane in the first place. Here's Leonard French...

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He can and should go after them, but even than he may face an uphill battle since he kind of went into full "toddler in a store" mode.

Liquid
I don't agree that overselling should be permitted and they deserve all the negative publicity they get for not denouncing this at the first instance.
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I don't recall saying either of these things, I was just pointing out that airlines have a ridiculous amount of freedom to do whatever they want and their reputation as an industry is already in the trashcan. :odd:
 
Northstar
I don't recall saying either of these things, I was just pointing out that airlines have a ridiculous amount of freedom to do whatever they want and their reputation as an industry is already in the trashcan. :odd:
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That wasn't directed at you and was a general statement at the end of my post.
 
Northstar
I've always wondered how overbooking flights is legal, it seems like any other industry would be in major trouble if they regularly sold more than they could deliver.
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Actually overbooking is common practice in a number of businesses. Chances are your doctor's office routinely overbooks. I'd say that any industry that requires clients to make an appointment probably overbooks.

In the case of the United flight here, I'm not sure it really was a case of overbooking; United said they needed to free up some seats to transfer crew members. I'd like to know why they didn't just charter a flight for the personnel. In that case the legal situation could be different.
 
Northstar
There won't be any (successful) lawsuit as United did nothing legally wrong. I would say the bad publicity will hurt them, but airlines are already frowned upon to the point where crap like this can't do much damage.

Here's the regulations regarding overbooked flights if you're interested.
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There's a lot that goes into contract enforcement, including how often the contract gets enforced, the circumstances under which it is enforced, whether both parties had any real power of negotiation, it goes on and on and on (ridiculously). I wouldn't assume that just because the EULA (if you will) gives United a lot of power, that it will be held up in court.
 
ryzno
http://www.tmz.com/2017/04/11/united-airlines-doctor-david-dao-poker-player/

http://www.tmz.com/2017/04/11/united-airlines-doctor-convicted-drugs-sex/

Interesting fellow...
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First off it's TMZ you might as well put up the national enquirer and called it a day. Second when did playing poker become a bad thing? I can see his checkered past as using his power as a doctor being questionable (has nothing to do with getting pulled off a flight like he was), and interesting. Still has nothing to do with the actual actions taken.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
First off it's TMZ you might as well put up the national enquirer and called it a day. Second when did playing poker become a bad thing? I can see his checkered past as using his power as a doctor being questionable (has nothing to do with getting pulled off a flight like he was), and interesting. Still has nothing to do with the actual actions taken.
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When I first watched the incident I thought the passenger's reaction was way over the top. If the allegations are true it speaks to character (convicted con artist/thief) and, to me at least, his massive, childlike over reaction makes sense now. The usual caveat of doesn't excuse what happened on the part of the others involved etc.
 
Johnnypenso
When I first watched the incident I thought the passenger's reaction was way over the top. If the allegations are true it speaks to character (convicted con artist/thief) and, to me at least, his massive, childlike over reaction makes sense now. The usual caveat of doesn't excuse what happened on the part of the others involved etc.
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I agree, they were very over the top. Still doesn't change that they did use excessive force, being a poker player doesn't make you a con artist. Being a doctor that trades favors for drugs is questionable but not showing a history of trying to one up the system.
 
BobK
In the case of the United flight here, I'm not sure it really was a case of overbooking; United said they needed to free up some seats to transfer crew members. I'd like to know why they didn't just charter a flight for the personnel. In that case the legal situation could be different.
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You're right. They needed to transfer crew members, which does play out differently as far as overbooking goes:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/11/asia/united-passenger-dragged-off-china-reaction/

CNN
In a statement, the airline said four crew members needed to get to a flight departing from Louisville otherwise it would be canceled. Passengers on the Chicago-Louisville plane were asked to give up their seats voluntarily.

When no one volunteered, the airline was forced into an "involuntary de-boarding situation," airline spokesman Charlie Hobart told CNN. Four passengers were selected, including the man in the video. United denied accusations the man was chosen based on his ethnicity.

The man refused, saying he was a doctor and needed to see patients. The airline said it then followed US Department of Transportation protocol in calling local law enforcement to forcibly remove the man from the plane after he refused to disembark.

The Chicago Department of Aviation said in a statement that the incident "was not in accordance with our standard operating procedure and the actions of the aviation security officer are obviously not condoned by the department."
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LMSCorvetteGT2
First off it's TMZ you might as well put up the national enquirer and called it a day. Second when did playing poker become a bad thing? I can see his checkered past as using his power as a doctor being questionable (has nothing to do with getting pulled off a flight like he was), and interesting. Still has nothing to do with the actual actions taken.
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Sorry to hear the source is not to your standards. Seems accurate to me. You are right though, it has nothing to do with the situation on the plane. I still think he is a "interesting fellow" after a tiny glimpse into his past. If you don't like my post, report it.

If you want my two cents on the matter. Here you go. United could of handled the situation a lot more professionally. But I think the blame should be more on the officers who responded. As far as Dao is concerned, I would have took the $800. He could planned another flight or mode of transportation, booked lodging if needed and had some change left over. But that's just me. I know, I know, "he had patients to see".
 
I'd be interested to know why Dao was chosen as one of the four for "voluntarily" giving up his seat and not someone else, after he was resistant to the idea.

Why not offer a bigger bribe to the rest of the passengers?
 
ryzno
As far as Dao is concerned, I would have took the $800. He could planned another flight or mode of transportation, booked lodging if needed and had some change left over. But that's just me. I know, I know, "he had patients to see".
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That's why overbooking exists... because usually someone like you will be happy to get bought out. Sometimes for a lot less than $800. In this case, nobody on the flight was biting, so United went deeper into the ticket contract that everyone agrees to without thinking about, and that's when people started wondering what their rights really were.

The reality is, your rights to stay on United's plane never really exist. If they ask you to leave, you have to leave (ticket or no) and dispute the costs later. They don't have to go over the contract with the police, all they have to do is say this passenger is being uncooperative with airline instructions (regardless of whether those instructions are to get naked, stand on one foot, and crack an egg on your head... or just get off the plane) and therefore the plane is unsafe to fly until that passenger is removed. The police will enforce that.

When the airline asks you to leave (or do anything) you know you're risking an encounter with the police when you refuse. That being said, portions of United's contract would likely be deemed unenforceable in court (for various reasons, some of which are based on assuming that passengers are morons), and damages will be awarded - or would have been, anyway, if he had left voluntarily. I don't know that United has to award damages for kicking off a passenger that won't comply with instructions.
 
Danoff
That's why overbooking exists... because usually someone like you will be happy to get bought out. Sometimes for a lot less than $800. In this case, nobody on the flight was biting, so United went deeper into the ticket contract that everyone agrees to without thinking about, and that's when people started wondering what their rights really were.

The reality is, your rights to stay on United's plane never really exist. If they ask you to leave, you have to leave (ticket or no) and dispute the costs later. They don't have to go over the contract with the police, all they have to do is say this passenger is being uncooperative with airline instructions (regardless of whether those instructions are to get naked, stand on one foot, and crack an egg on your head... or just get off the plane) and therefore the plane is unsafe to fly until that passenger is removed. The police will enforce that.

When the airline asks you to leave (or do anything) you know you're risking an encounter with the police when you refuse. That being said, portions of United's contract would likely be deemed unenforceable in court (for various reasons, some of which are based on assuming that passengers are morons), and damages will be awarded - or would have been, anyway, if he had left voluntarily. I don't know that United has to award damages for kicking off a passenger that won't comply with instructions.
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Can't he file civil charges against the officers for injuries and/or excessive force if the case against United goes nowhere?
 
ryzno
Can't he file civil charges against the officers for injuries and/or excessive force if the case against United goes nowhere?
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I'm sure he could... but I think this chances of winning against the officers is not as good as winning something against United. He was being an uncooperative passenger on an airline and resisting police instructions... I think they're allowed to use force to subdue him and remove him.
 
Danoff
They don't have to go over the contract with the police, all they have to do is say this passenger is being uncooperative with airline instructions (regardless of whether those instructions are to get naked, stand on one foot, and crack an egg on your head... or just get off the plane) and therefore the plane is unsafe to fly until that passenger is removed. The police will enforce that.
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Not necessarily true. The police have procedures too. The fact that the Chicago Department of Aviation said that the removal was not okay with procedure, speaks volumes.


ryzno
Can't he file civil charges against the officers for injuries and/or excessive force if the case against United goes nowhere?
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According to Leonard French, who is an actual attorney, yes, he can. The officers can rely on little support from the department as they have effectively threw them under the bus.
 
Sanji Himura
Not necessarily true. The police have procedures too. The fact that the Chicago Department of Aviation said that the removal was not okay with procedure, speaks volumes.
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Was it the specifics of the removal were not ok with procedures (like... they resorted to force prior to exhausting the steps they're supposed to work through), or was it attempting to remove him at all that was not ok? Because if airline personnel say that a passenger is being uncooperative with instructions and ask the police to remove him... he's getting removed.
 
ryzno
Sorry to hear the source is not to your standards. Seems accurate to me. You are right though, it has nothing to do with the situation on the plane. I still think he is a "interesting fellow" after a tiny glimpse into his past. If you don't like my post, report it.

If you want my two cents on the matter. Here you go. United could of handled the situation a lot more professionally. But I think the blame should be more on the officers who responded. As far as Dao is concerned, I would have took the $800. He could planned another flight or mode of transportation, booked lodging if needed and had some change left over. But that's just me. I know, I know, "he had patients to see".
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I find it hard to see how he had patients, without knowing the time of the actual flight, if they were scheduled for the next day then I agree why not just take the money. Also when he comes back on the plane you can see him talking about needing to get home to his family, nothing about being worried for anything work related.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
I find it hard to see how he had patients, without knowing the time of the actual flight, if they were scheduled for the next day then I agree why not just take the money. Also when he comes back on the plane you can see him talking about needing to get home to his family, nothing about being worried for anything work related.
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That brings up the next question. How did he get back on the plane, after being escorted off once. Did they allow him to go back for his carry on and he thought he tricked them or did he sneak back on.

Either way, it's starting to look not in his favor if he did blatantly defy officers orders and sneak back on.
 
ryzno
That brings up the next question. How did he get back on the plane, after being escorted off once. Did they allow him to go back for his carry on and he thought he tricked them or did he sneak back on.
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This I do not know and haven't tried hard to find the answer, but it would be nice to know that as well.
 
Dao, his wife and two other passengers were asked to leave the aircraft because the flight was full and four crew members needed their seats, according to witnesses who were on the flight. The airline had offered vouchers worth up to $800 for passengers to give up their seats, but no one took the offer. Four passengers, including Dao, were then selected to be bumped.
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http://www.courier-journal.com/stor...united-flight-doctor-troubled-past/100318320/
source

I didn't know his wife was on the plane too. Interesting. Lets see how this unfolds.
 
Danoff
Was it the specifics of the removal were not ok with procedures (like... they resorted to force prior to exhausting the steps they're supposed to work through), or was it attempting to remove him at all that was not ok? Because if airline personnel say that a passenger is being uncooperative with instructions and ask the police to remove him... he's getting removed.
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Actually, they, meaning United, may not have the authority to remove anyone from the plane in the first place. Leonard French again:

 
LMSCorvetteGT2
I agree, they were very over the top. Still doesn't change that they did use excessive force, being a poker player doesn't make you a con artist. Being a doctor that trades favors for drugs is questionable but not showing a history of trying to one up the system.
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I'll reserve judgment on the excessive force until all the facts are in.
 

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