America - The Official Thread

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False. We know the electoral college is part of our federal system, our republic. Our founders unanimously thought democracy was a dangerous experiment, as world history shows. So instead they gave us a representative democracy of states united into a federally headed republic, with plenty of checks and balances built in. We have drifted over decades into a bad patch with an overly powerful executive branch ascendant over a weakened and damaged legislative branch.

"Democracy was a dangerous experiment?" What democracy were they looking at in world history? The Founders were men of the 18th century with 18th century values & they were trying to cobble together a new nation out of disparate elements under very trying circumstances . They were not all-knowing, infallible savants.

The electoral college makes no sense today ... & the organization of the Senate, with equal representation from states like California & Rhode Island, makes no sense either. Explain to me why someone who lives in Massachusetts a couple of miles from the Rhode Island border should suddenly get 6 times the Senate voting power if he moves across the border? Let's call it what it is: an illogical, undemocratic consequence of the circumstances at the time the US came into being.

It would seem to me that a more realistic safeguard of the political rights of citizens in smaller states would be the division of powers between federal & state government. That seems like a more equitable way of ensuring smaller states don't get coerced into policies they don't support. However, it's difficult to have a coherent, unified country when there is too much ideological disparity between regions ... as we can see in the US now.
 
This one confuses me a bit. Collusion never seemed all that probable, it needed to be investigated based on the evidence, but it never seemed likely. Obstruction seems FAR more likely. But Mueller apparently tried hard to remind Americans that there is a bigger problem than Trump remaining in office, which is that Russia appears to have influenced the election, and might do it again.

It seems as though if you were looking for collusion and were re-double-extra-confirmed that there doesn't appear to be evidence supporting collusion, that you're looking away from what is the focus, and has been the focus for a long time now. And Trump himself seems to be happy to direct us all to look away from that focus.

To be accurate “collusion” is not a specific offense or theory of liability found in the United States Code, nor is it a term of art in federal criminal law.. He wrote that there was not enough evidence to confirm conspiracy to coordinate with the Russian to meddle with the election. However the trump administration was aware (and welcomed) that the Russians were influencing the election in trumps favor. That wasn’t a conspiracy or an indictable offense. If that is a moral how a president (elect) should act is for the people to decide.

It is like somebody you didn’t like got killed. You knew it probably was coming and knew it was beneficial for you, so you didn’t do anything to prevent it. That is not illegal. But if you did conspire with the potential killer to commit the crime, then it you would have been guilty of conspiracy to murder or “collusion”. Morally you are guilty either way in my opinion. However only one is indictable.

edit: correction of incorrect statement
 
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"Democracy was a dangerous experiment?" What democracy were they looking at in world history?
The founders were well aware of the dangers of the tyranny of the majority, a near example the Salem Witch Trials, and a far example the same concerns expressed by the Classical Greeks and Athenians. They even had a special term for it. A more recent example is of course the French Revolution. Chop chop, your neck.
 
Russia sure is getting their money's worth out of their interference campaign. They drove a perfect, Trump-shaped wedge between the two halves of the country and completely escaped retribution for it, even though basically everyone knows that they did it. But because we have a thin-skinned and patently relentless narcissist for President, there will not be an opportunity to shift a bipartisan lens towards Russia, because that would make him feel illegitimate. Putin owns Trump not because he has any dirt on him, Putin owns Trump because if Putin is the bad guy, then Trump's presidency is illegitimate....so Putin has to be the good guy. The chaotic logic of it all....:nervous:
 
Isn't Trump on tape asking for the Russians to, 'find Hillary's emails', then Russians are charged with accessing the sever and emails.
 
Russia sure is getting their money's worth out of their interference campaign. They drove a perfect, Trump-shaped wedge between the two halves of the country and completely escaped retribution for it, even though basically everyone knows that they did it. But because we have a thin-skinned and patently relentless narcissist for President, there will not be an opportunity to shift a bipartisan lens towards Russia, because that would make him feel illegitimate. Putin owns Trump not because he has any dirt on him, Putin owns Trump because if Putin is the bad guy, then Trump's presidency is illegitimate....so Putin has to be the good guy. The chaotic logic of it all....:nervous:

IlliterateCheeryKingfisher-size_restricted.gif
 
I still can't believe Russia is even a thing. But it provides the perfect distraction for Trump to continue to do unconstitutional stuff, like proposing to enact a tariff on Mexico.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/30/us/politics/trump-mexico-tariffs.html

While Trump is probably impeachable for being shady, obstructing justice, and probably lying to god knows who, he definitely should be impeachable for continuing to violate the Constitution. And if he decides that we need a war with Iran and does it without congressional approval, that's just another abuse of power by him.

I really wish the Russia narrative would die and we turn our focus from Trump the shady asshat to Trump the want-to-be dictator.
 
It most certainly can be.



Ummm, what? It's a term that can be cited in court as part of an accusation of illegal actions. It's a legal word to legally use legally in legal legislating and legistation. S'legal.

I was speaking in context of the russia investigation. See below quote from the report:

"In evaluating whether evidence about collective action of multiple individuals constituted a crime, we applied the framework of conspiracy law, not the concept of “collusion.” In so doing, the Office recognized that the word “collud[e]” was used in communications with the Acting Attorney General confirming certain aspects of the investigation’s scope and that the term has frequently been invoked in public reporting about the investigation. But collusion is not a specific offense or theory of liability found in the United States Code, nor is it a term of art in federal criminal law. For those reasons, the Office’s focus in analyzing questions of joint criminal liability was on conspiracy as defined in federal law."

http://time.com/5506815/collusion-crime-obstruction-finance-trump-cohen/

https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/is-collusion-a-crime.html

A more recent example is of course the French Revolution. Chop chop, your neck.

What about lynching???
 
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I was speaking in context of the russia investigation. See below quote from the report:

"In evaluating whether evidence about collective action of multiple individuals constituted a crime, we applied the framework of conspiracy law, not the concept of “collusion.” In so doing, the Office recognized that the word “collud[e]” was used in communications with the Acting Attorney General confirming certain aspects of the investigation’s scope and that the term has frequently been invoked in public reporting about the investigation. But collusion is not a specific offense or theory of liability found in the United States Code, nor is it a term of art in federal criminal law. For those reasons, the Office’s focus in analyzing questions of joint criminal liability was on conspiracy as defined in federal law."

It's incredible that you went from that to saying

To be accurate “collusion” is not illegal

or

even a legal term.

Acts of criminal collusion are illegal a number of ways, and it's perfectly legal to use the term to describe such crimes in a court room. I think you're misunderstanding a statement which simply points out that the word doesn't appear in the specific (or specificed) titles of any felonies. Somehow you're getting to "collusion is always legal".
 
It's incredible that you went from that to saying



or



Acts of criminal collusion are illegal a number of ways, and it's perfectly legal to use the term to describe such crimes in a court room. I think you're misunderstanding a statement which simply points out that the word doesn't appear in the specific (or specificed) titles of any felonies. Somehow you're getting to "collusion is always legal".

*fixed!
 
I still can't believe Russia is even a thing. But it provides the perfect distraction for Trump to continue to do unconstitutional stuff, like proposing to enact a tariff on Mexico.

And presiding over the renaming of fossil fuels as "molecules of freedom".

A stroke of genius by the Department of Energy.
 
Russia sure is getting their money's worth out of their interference campaign. They drove a perfect, Trump-shaped wedge between the two halves of the country and completely escaped retribution for it, even though basically everyone knows that they did it.
Everyone knows but still can't prove?

Is there any way to disprove the 'Russian collusion'? Or no matter what the investigations conclude, you'll still keep saying that Trump is owned by Putin? Just curious...

Also, how exactly did Russia influence the elections? As far as I know, the voting results weren't hacked (otherwise, it should have been void and started again). The Americans were those who elected Trump. Not Russians. What's the problem then? Is that because of pro-Trump propaganda on Twitter? Well, no one forced the American people to believe it.
 
Everyone knows but still can't prove?

Is there any way to disprove the 'Russian collusion'? Or no matter what the investigations conclude, you'll still keep saying that Trump is owned by Putin? Just curious...

Also, how exactly did Russia influence the elections? As far as I know, the voting results weren't hacked (otherwise, it should have been void and started again). The Americans were those who elected Trump. Not Russians. What's the problem then? Is that because of pro-Trump propaganda on Twitter? Well, no one forced the American people to believe it.

:sly:

Added the wink at the bottom of your post that you forgot. The whole point of plausible deniability is that the deniability is plausible.
 
The voicemail:

Hey, Rob, uhm, this is John again. Uh, maybe, I-I-I'm-I'm sympathetic; I understand your situation, but let me see if I can't ... state it in ... starker terms. If you have ... and it wouldn't surprise me if you've gone on to make a deal with, and, uh, work with the government, uh ... I understand that you can't join the joint defense; so that's one thing. If, on the other hand, we have, there's information that. .. implicates the President, then we've got a national security issue, or maybe a national security issue, I don't know ... some issue, we got to-we got to deal with, not only for the President, but for the country. So ... uh ... you know, then-then, you know, we need some kind of heads up. Um, just for the sake of ... protecting all our interests, if we can, without you having to give up any ... confidential information. So, uhm, and if it's the former, then, you know, remember what we've always said about the President and his feelings toward Flynn and, that still remains, but-Well, in any event, uhm, let me know, and, uh, I appreciate your listening and taking the time. Thanks, Pal.

I don't know in what universe this doesn't count as obstruction of justice, but whatever. I guess nothing matters.
 
Added the wink at the bottom of your post that you forgot. The whole point of plausible deniability is that the deniability is plausible.
Because basically you guys elected yourself the wrong president then blame another nation for it. It reminds me of the old meme with a guy on a bicycle who puts a stick ("Electing Trump") into the front wheel then falls and yells ("Goddamn Russians!" in this case).

To be honest, in Russia we also have some people who believe that... Putin is owned by the US. Mostly they are communists whose idols are Lenin and Stalin.
 
The voicemail:



I don't know in what universe this doesn't count as obstruction of justice, but whatever. I guess nothing matters.


"This is clearly a baseless, political document designed to smear and damage the reputation of counsel and innocent people."

:odd:

It's a transcript of a shady voicemail--albeit one with just an obscene number of non-lexical utterances--that you yourself left!

Also...I lol'd:

 
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"This is clearly a baseless designed to smear and damage the reputation of counsel and innocent people."

:odd:

It's a transcript of a shady voicemail--albeit one with just an obscene number of non-lexical utterances--that you yourself left!

Also...I lol'd:



The use of comic sans elevates the crime to high treason...perhaps crimes against humanity.. Bring out the guillotine.
 
Listen closely to this man. He does what he says, and gives no *****.

He believes that some people, invited themselves, to use the most powerful spying tools in the world, tools that congress (we the people) have allowed the government to have, and they used those tools to spy on Trump.


I hesitate to post this video, because it is from Sean Hannity's show, I hate Sean Hannity. He is an insufferable ass.

The panel on his Friday night show was great, it included Investigative reporters that have been working on this 'Russian hoax' story. A Democrat pollster and Geraldo Rivera

If you are curious about what the right is thinking, watch.

I'm starting this after hannity's monologue, you can go back and watch it if you want.
 
You want to come to the US.
Please provide all social media accounts and emails and phone numbers please.
 
I'm beginning to suspect that John Bolton, more than anything else, is simply a very, very dumb person. His only discernible world-view is "intervene, preferably with guns". (His relatively scant military experience makes this interesting to me, but that's beside the point). But more than that, his actual policy initiatives contradict each other in pretty blatant ways. My knowledge of the Korean and Venezuela issues are pretty limited, but his middle east strategies are baffling.

I get the sense that his overarching intent is to have an American-friendly government in the second largest middle-eastern country (Iran). He has not been subtle about his support for the People's Mujahedin of Iran (one of those Socialist-Islamist groups America has so much in common with, so much so in fact, the US designated them a terrorist organization until 2012) and generally the idea of regime change through whatever means is most expedient. He's also a fierce advocate of "containment" with regards to Iranian adventurism. None of these are particularly unique to general conservative world views, with regards to Iran.

Buuuut here's the thing. The #1 obstacle to Iran's expansionism at the turn of the millennium was the Sunni dictator Saddam Hussein who had already proven capable of going toe to toe with Iran in a expansive military conflict in the 1980s. Bolton unquestionably played a big role in overthrowing Saddam. What did he expect would happen? That Iran, massive compared to Iraq in terms of economy, population, and size, would not exert influence on Iraq? What we have now is, at best for the US, a compromise government in Iraq that is far more friendly to Iran than Saddam ever was.

And then there is the whole ISIS fight within Syria and Iraq. While you can't say that Bolton had anything to do with Obama's strategy in Syria, he didn't exactly go out of his way to take on a more direct and forceful role in eliminating ISIS. The Trump administration has largely let Iran and Russia run the show, which means that Iran has greatly expanded it's influence to nearly the Mediterranean Sea.

Since 2000, despite debilitating sanctions, Iran has expanded its territory of influence by something like 100%.

But what is even more baffling than all of that is what the Trump administration, and particularly Bolton, has done to the sentiment of the Iranian population. We all hear the "death to America" and flag burning and such, but Iranians (at least the sizeable middle & upper classes) prior to Trump have been generally fine with America. But the Trump administration has actually started to turn the population of Iran further against the US, which makes regime change start to look pretty laughable. Who do you think they would elect if the current government (A representative Republic with generally free elections, I might add) was removed? Probably the same people. Maybe the US would try to install a pro-western authoritarian? Probably not a good idea, really. Also, try invading a country of 80 million people, who could easily be issued small arms, who don't want you there, it would be like Russia trying to invade Texas, except with nearly three times as many people and more than double the geographic footprint. Iraq and Afghanistan would look like cakewalks in comparison.

To me, it all adds up to a very basic, fundamental lack of a long term strategy. I think Bolton is just a dumb, and dangerously dumb person.

Obama's strategy was probably a bit naive and didn't fully address the militarism of the IRGC. IMO, the agreement should have been primarily about reducing Iranian adventurism and less about the less important nuclear development (NK seems far less stable than Iran, and they have Nukes, and they haven't Nuked anyone. Pakistan and India both have nukes, and they pretty much hate each other, and they haven't gone nuclear). It would have probably been more effective in containing the expansionism and more palatable to most Iranians. But Obama's strategy seemed to actually have a long term goal: to gradually (gradual tends to stick) pushing Iran to a more moderate place and bringing them into the fold of the international community. This involved trust on both sides, and both sides seemed to be moving forward in mostly good faith. Ironically, Trump seems to naturally follow this diplomatic track, when not under the influence of hawks. I don't understand why he has been so aggressive towards Iran, other than the fact that it is a majority Muslim country. Is it to simplistic to say that he simply deeply dislikes Muslims as a whole? Or is merely an attempt to undo a Obama signature policy? Trump's hatred of Obama still mystifies me. Whatever the case, the amount of progress that has been undone is hard to overstate. Iranians now do not trust America, we have lost a significant amount of integrity, and integrity was possibly America's greatest asset.
 
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I'm beginning to suspect that John Bolton, more than anything else, is simply a very, very dumb person. His only discernible world-view is "intervene, preferably with guns". (His relatively scant military experience makes this interesting to me, but that's beside the point). But more than that, his actual policy initiatives contradict each other in pretty blatant ways. My knowledge of the Korean and Venezuela issues are pretty limited, but his middle east strategies are baffling.

I get the sense that his overarching intent is to have an American-friendly government in the second largest middle-eastern country (Iran). He has not been subtle about his support for the People's Mujahedin of Iran (one of those Socialist-Islamist groups America has so much in common with, so much so in fact, the US designated them a terrorist organization until 2012) and generally the idea of regime change through whatever means is most expedient. He's also a fierce advocate of "containment" with regards to Iranian adventurism. None of these are particularly unique to general conservative world views, with regards to Iran.

Buuuut here's the thing. The #1 obstacle to Iran's expansionism at the turn of the millennium was the Sunni dictator Saddam Hussein who had already proven capable of going toe to toe with Iran in a expansive military conflict in the 1980s. Bolton unquestionably played a big role in overthrowing Saddam. What did he expect would happen? That Iran, massive compared to Iraq in terms of economy, population, and size, would not exert influence on Iraq? What we have now is, at best for the US, a compromise government in Iraq that is far more friendly to Iran than Saddam ever was.

And then there is the whole ISIS fight within Syria and Iraq. While you can't say that Bolton had anything to do with Obama's strategy in Syria, he didn't exactly go out of his way to take on a more direct and forceful role in eliminating ISIS. The Trump administration has largely let Iran and Russia run the show, which means that Iran has greatly expanded it's influence to nearly the Mediterranean Sea.

Since 2000, despite debilitating sanctions, Iran has expanded its territory of influence by something like 100%.

But what is even more baffling than all of that is what the Trump administration, and particularly Bolton, has done to the sentiment of the Iranian population. We all hear the "death to America" and flag burning and such, but Iranians (at least the sizeable middle & upper classes) prior to Trump have been generally fine with America. But the Trump administration has actually started to turn the population of Iran further against the US, which makes regime change start to look pretty laughable. Who do you think they would elect if the current government (A representative Republic with generally free elections, I might add) was removed? Probably the same people. Maybe the US would try to install a pro-western authoritarian? Probably not a good idea, really. Also, try invading a country of 80 million people, who could easily be issued small arms, who don't want you there, it would be like Russia trying to invade Texas, except with nearly three times as many people. Iraq and Afghanistan would look like cakewalks in comparison.

To me, it all adds up to a very basic, fundamental lack of a long term strategy. I think Bolton is just a dumb, and dangerously dumb person.

Obama's strategy was probably a bit naive and didn't fully address the militarism of the IRGC. IMO, the agreement should have been primarily about reducing Iranian adventurism and less about the less important nuclear development (NK seems far less stable than Iran, and they have Nukes, and they haven't Nuked anyone. Pakistan and India both have nukes, and they pretty much hate each other, and they haven't gone nuclear). It would have probably been more effective in containing the expansionism and more palatable to most Iranians. But Obama's strategy seemed to actually have a long term goal: to gradually (gradual tends to stick) pushing Iran to a more moderate place and bringing them into the fold of the international community. This involved trust on both sides, and both sides seemed to be moving forward in mostly good faith. Ironically, Trump seems to naturally follow this diplomatic track, when not under the influence of hawks. I don't understand why he has been so aggressive towards Iran, other than the fact that it is a majority Muslim country. Is it to simplistic to say that he simply deeply dislikes Muslims as a whole? Or is merely an attempt to undo a Obama signature policy? Trump's hatred of Obama still mystifies me. Whatever the case, the amount of progress that has been undone is hard to overstate. Iranians now do not trust America, we have lost a significant amount of integrity, and integrity was possibly America's greatest asset.
Generally the US has chosen the side of the Sunnis in the conflict between Sunni and Shia. This answers some of your questions. But even before the Sunnis come the Israelis. Bolton is their man, a neocon. That should answer some more of your concerns.
 
Generally the US has chosen the side of the Sunnis in the conflict between Sunni and Shia. This answers some of your questions. But even before the Sunnis come the Israelis. Bolton is their man, a neocon. That should answer some more of your concerns.

Not to be pedantic, but my post was not so much critical of what the goals are (another topic), but the means of accomplishes said goals. The USA has hamfisted itself into every corner imaginable for the last 70 years. Every decision we've made in the middle east has effectively been the wrong one. You'd think by pure chance, we'd get something right, but there doesn't appear to be evidence to support that. I have a decent amount of conviction to my belief that if we had not staged a coup against Mosaddegh in '53, the middle east would be a far more stable place and Israel would not be nearly as exposed as it is today. Iran would have retained regional hegemony, for sure, but it would have done so with a drastically less militant attitude and a far more secular government.
 
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