Anyone else dissapointed in Shift 2?

[tribolik]

No, the answer is that Shift 2 is just really awful - just look at these centre point pivot physics.

Damn thats even worse than the other EVO/Shift 2 video... I think Im not buying it anymore.
I didnt know that there was going to be an warehouse location on Shift 2
And did I spot frame rate drops on that first video?

Boxox now speaking more seriously about centre point pivot physics. if there is a game wich I feel has that kind of physics is F1 2010. Am I right? or is it just my imagination? Because I really dont know jack &$% about game physics - its just the way the driving feels...

 

[mokalovesoulmat]

I am extremely disappointed with Shift 2 if there is no local 2P battle mode.

 

[JJ72]

no dedicated driving games in this generation uses center pivot based physics........it's technology from the 90's! In one of the trailers it showed off the telemetry system and you can clearly see a graph where it shows the state of grip on all four tires.

 

[boxox]

I don't believe this is something that really works the way people think it works (at least from what is implied by "centre point pivot physics"). At least as far as any driving game data I have ever looked at, you would be in for a long and fruitless search for something called a "pivot point" to move around forwards or backwards in the car. Maybe for something like Wipeout you would find something like that, but once you add a contact model ... of any kind of sophistication at all, really, it becomes pointless to do it that way.

It's one of those phrases people bring up that certainly SOUNDS like it might be a real thing. "Canned spins" is another old favourite along those lines too (eg. frequently turns up in discussions of race/flight sims despite not being present in anything much past the days of the OutRun coin-op). But it's just a description of someone's perception of it - it has nothing to do with how this would ever actually be done in the back end.

F1 2010 - I'm pretty sure they have at least some rudimentary stuff happening that would make it pointless to do it that way - eg they have an engine model, a drivetrain model, an inertia model and a separated tyre model, and pretty much anything the car does will be a product of that rather than some abstract "pivot point". But I would definitely say the data actually driving the cars/physics engine is fairly rudimentary (especially considering the juice they spent getting the tracks/pits/number of cars/etc up) and they've placed a lot more work on making input "fly by wire" to an extent. So you are kept away from anything that would make the game look/drive funky by making sure that whatever your controller did, you may only actually transmit x amount of steering at x speed with x power state, and other such combinations, through to the physics model, and you can see fairly easily if you go looking for it. Every game does this to some extent though (totally unfiltered input is basically unusable, especially from gamepads), but I think they hit it pretty hard with that.

To bring up a good example here - Falcon 4. Neckbeardiest flight sim ever, gigantic amount of avionics, radio, navigation, strategic simulation running all at once, loads of features, incredibly complicated to learn .. and it has a pretty astounding simple flight model running underneath it with really not a lot of actual data used or any particularly sophisticated calculation happening anywhere. And the default F-16 data doesn't even much resemble the behaviour of the real plane, even . But it's still regarded as absolutely the most realistic flight sim ever and the benchmark for everything else.

But yeah, short version, generally people's perceptions of how things work/act can be a pretty unreliable guide to how they actually work. People's perception of how "realistic" things actually are is totally subjective and highly manipulable.

 

[Luminis]

With an Evo...you don't think that's exactly the behaviour you'd expect?

Personally, I think it looks like the car's rear wheels are sliding sideways while turning, even though the car isn't oversteering.
I'm not saying that there are any centre point physics (hell, I'm arguing against them), all I'm saying is that certain videos may look like that because of:

1. The assists/handling mode used
2. The different kinds of input (keyboard vs. controller vs. wheel)
3. The chosen camera
4. The (probably) older build of the game

That's why I brought Tommy Milner's lap up: It looks as though there isn't anything to indicate centre point physics or sliding rear wheels or whatever.

 

[boxox]

• The assists/handling mode used
• The different kinds of input (keyboard vs. controller vs. wheel)
• The chosen camera
• The (probably) older build of the game

1) it's kind of a weird approach to turn on every anti-spin assist the car has and then complain it's not spinning enough ?

2) actually, a big one. Again - just this weird situation where someone will go from 100% to 0% power, or 100% of steering lock to 0%, and then complain that the car drifts or slides. Like. If it wasn't doing that from that input - that would be a much bigger problem IMO. Very glad they haven't switched to the star trek teleporter/inertial damper system you see on other console titles

3) In Shift 1 the "chase camera" mode operated on a delay from the target objects movement, and had inertia parameters set up, so it didn't actually take much for the camera to be moving effectively against the car's direction of travel, rather than with it. Definitely the most mystifying choice I can see so far, it is literally 4 line changes to fix it and make it work like the conventional 3rd person cam you see elsewhere.

4) Yep, one thing from I really learned from modding is that there is a big difference between what you can get working in terms of "a modder can use it" and what you can get working that you can expect other people (who don't know which menus don't work or how to avoid all the little foibles in the latest beta) to use. I think they mentioned this is a couple of months out from current?

 

[maxpontiac]

1) it's kind of a weird approach to turn on every anti-spin assist the car has and then complain it's not spinning enough ?

2) actually, a big one. Again - just this weird situation where someone will go from 100% to 0% power, or 100% of steering lock to 0%, and then complain that the car drifts or slides. Like. If it wasn't doing that from that input - that would be a much bigger problem IMO. Very glad they haven't switched to the star trek teleporter/inertial damper system you see on other console titles

3) In Shift 1 the "chase camera" mode operated on a delay from the target objects movement, and had inertia parameters set up, so it didn't actually take much for the camera to be moving effectively against the car's direction of travel, rather than with it. Definitely the most mystifying choice I can see so far, it is literally 4 line changes to fix it and make it work like the conventional 3rd person cam you see elsewhere.

4) Yep, one thing from I really learned from modding is that there is a big difference between what you can get working in terms of "a modder can use it" and what you can get working that you can expect other people (who don't know which menus don't work or how to avoid all the little foibles in the latest beta) to use. I think they mentioned this is a couple of months out from current?

Now while I appreciate your detailed explanation on the subject, you are forgetting one variable that means more then every scientific fact you can throw out there.

Tastes.

What I, you, he or she like might be different from one another, and that's bottom line.

 

[RomKnight]

"gostos não se discutem" or translating "don't argue about personal tastes". Its like argue about religion, politics and football...

I don't care about physics as long as it FEELS like its real (close ) and don't affect playability (fun factor). See the above example (falcon 4) given by boxox

I really hope boxox and/or others find a way to mod shift2 just to find how shift2 engine works, if it can be improved (DUH) and in what ways. Also, the negative aspects of the engine.

boxox: nice posts. keep'em coming... and some mods

 

[tribolik]

"gostos não se discutem" or translating "don't argue about personal tastes". Its like argue about religion, politics and football...

I don't care about physics as long as it FEELS like its real (close ) and don't affect playability (fun factor). See the above example (falcon 4) given by boxox

I really hope boxox and/or others find a way to mod shift2 just to find how shift2 engine works, if it can be improved (DUH) and in what ways. Also, the negative aspects of the engine.

boxox: nice posts. keep'em coming... and some mods

gostos não se discutem, cultivam-se... you cant argue tastes but you can grow them or cultivate them, wich means that even though every one has diferent tastes not everything is well done to a certain extent . even if I like this or that someone could do it better with more work or a diferent approach.

Boxox - thanks for the explanation - I still like the handling better in F1 CE (even if I cant do donuts with the cars)

Im still looking foward to this one.

 

[RomKnight]

You're right, but i was just making a point.

If only fanboys knew this proverb...

 

[Destinkeys]

Dumb proverb, IMO. Why try to argue against something you know NOBODY is going to listen to you about?

 

[maxpontiac]

"gostos não se discutem" or translating "don't argue about personal tastes". Its like argue about religion, politics and football...

I don't care about physics as long as it FEELS like its real (close ) and don't affect playability (fun factor). See the above example (falcon 4) given by boxox

I really hope boxox and/or others find a way to mod shift2 just to find how shift2 engine works, if it can be improved (DUH) and in what ways. Also, the negative aspects of the engine.

boxox: nice posts. keep'em coming... and some mods

Indeed. I'll know right away if I like a race game. Certain things I can look past, while others will force me not to play it.

 

[tinram]

Physics between shift1 and GT5 + gritty, violent, rough experience = "the most realistic racer ever”

What do you guys think?

 

[brainfade]

I have to be honest, I absolutely dislike this game and it's predecessor as they completely disrespect real-life circuits and if real racing drivers who haven't had money thrown at them saw this game they would be disgusted.

How does Shift 2 disrespect real-life tracks?

I'll use the games interpretation of the Nordschleife of an example, no matter what racing game you play, (even if its Mario Kart for god sake!), if that game contains the Nordschleife then you expect to see it in it's proper authentic and purest form: the thin band of black threading it's 20.81km path around the Castle Nurburg, encase within kilometers of armco.
You expect to see the changes in discolouration on the armco barriers hinting to where an accident may have occurred, the miles of graffiti which cover this stretch of tarmac, the clearly visible concrete marshalls post from the grim yet heroic era in which this track claimed it's victims, feeling every bump and almost seeing them in the tracks surface, those of you who played the 24hr loop in GT5 were able to see the track lined with campsites and gantries and maybe dared to tackle this track in the pitch black with a NASCAR.

If you load up the Nordschleife you don't get ANY of this, the track is made to look as if it had been taken over by young toffs in skinny jeans and converted into some synth-rave. Shift's logo is selfishly farted across the tracks surface almost liberally, the track is literally as wide as Sepang (Malaysian GP track), gone is the landscape of the Eiffel Mountains, in it's place instead are tacky oversized billboards, even tackier oversized tents, tacky metal bridges which you would expect a dj to turn up at a your wedding reception with and a baby smooth surface. A watered-down, censored, antibacterial, low fat, wide, forgiving, easy, childish, 'Herman-Tilkedrome' near pisstake of a motorsport legend for people with no clear understanding of racing line, people who have never watched a race in their life, people who never will and should honestly stick to their little FPS games.

NFS does this to all the real life tracks, which spits in the face of these circuits and is damn right disrespectful and akin to having Greenpeace activist planting flowers and daisies all over the tarmac at the Nordschleife.

 

[Imari]

I have to be honest, I absolutely dislike this game and it's predecessor as they completely disrespect real-life circuits and if real racing drivers who haven't had money thrown at them saw this game they would be disgusted.

How does Shift 2 disrespect real-life tracks?

I'll use the games interpretation of the Nordschleife of an example, no matter what racing game you play, (even if its Mario Kart for god sake!), if that game contains the Nordschleife then you expect to see it in it's proper authentic and purest form: the thin band of black threading it's 20.81km path around the Castle Nurburg, encase within kilometers of armco.
You expect to see the changes in discolouration on the armco barriers hinting to where an accident may have occurred, the miles of graffiti which cover this stretch of tarmac, the clearly visible concrete marshalls post from the grim yet heroic era in which this track claimed it's victims, feeling every bump and almost seeing them in the tracks surface, those of you who played the 24hr loop in GT5 were able to see the track lined with campsites and gantries and maybe dared to tackle this track in the pitch black with a NASCAR.

If you load up the Nordschleife you don't get ANY of this, the track is made to look as if it had been taken over by young toffs in skinny jeans and converted into some synth-rave. Shift's logo is selfishly farted across the tracks surface almost liberally, the track is literally as wide as Sepang (Malaysian GP track), gone is the landscape of the Eiffel Mountains, in it's place instead are tacky oversized billboards, even tackier oversized tents, tacky metal bridges which you would expect a dj to turn up at a your wedding reception with and a baby smooth surface. A watered-down, censored, antibacterial, low fat, wide, forgiving, easy, childish, 'Herman-Tilkedrome' near pisstake of a motorsport legend for people with no clear understanding of racing line, people who have never watched a race in their life, people who never will and should honestly stick to their little FPS games.

NFS does this to all the real life tracks, which spits in the face of these circuits and is damn right disrespectful and akin to having Greenpeace activist planting flowers and daisies all over the tarmac at the Nordschleife.

I don't think this game is for you. I'd take counterpoint to some of your arguments, but I fear it would be a waste of time. I recommend you continue playing GT5, you will enjoy it more.

 

[tribolik]

I don't think this game is for you. I'd take counterpoint to some of your arguments, but I fear it would be a waste of time. I recommend you continue playing GT5, you will enjoy it more.

I dont think is a GT5 fan because monza is way off in GT5... but is got a good point there... well at least I understand and agree to some of is claims...

 

[Imari]

I dont think is a GT5 fan because monza is way off in GT5... but is got a good point there... well at least I understand and agree to some of is claims...

Hey, I agree with parts of that too. But the inflammatory and hyperbolic manner in which the argument is presented makes me feel that there's probably not going to be any rational discussion about the parts of that post that are interesting.

 

[tribolik]

please erase... sorry double post.

 

[tribolik]

(even if its Mario Kart for god sake!)

What did you expect from someone that thinks Mario is More important than God?

Talking about disrespect

He doesnt like the game and didnt like the first one either. I can understand that... what I cant understand is if that is the case what is is doing posting in this thread?

My case is a little different.

I like the first Shift but was hopping for improved physics and FFB on the sequel... makes no sence to me to spend 72 euros on a game thats only been restyled and repacked... and from what Im reading about the game Im very dissapointed... and I also agree with him about the vandalized tracks from EAs part... but thats really not a big deal to me... or should I say a deal breaker...

 

[Imari]

What did you expect from someone that thinks Mario is More important than God?

Talking about disrespect

He doesnt like the game and didnt like the first one either. I can understand that... what I cant understand is if that is the case what is is doing posting in this thread?

My case is a little different.

I like the first Shift but was hopping for improved physics and FFB on the sequel... makes no sence to me to spend 72 euros on a game thats only been restyled and repacked... and from what Im reading about the game Im very dissapointed... and I also agree with him about the vandalized tracks from EAs part... but thats really not a big deal to me... or should I say a deal breaker...

I suspect there's probably quite a few people like yourself that would enjoy the game, but not at release prices. If/when it get to greatest hits status and starts selling for $20, I'm guessing there are a lot of people who will pick it up at that point just to have a go.

And that's fine too. There's clearly problems with the game, and depending on how important those problems are to you then those people absolutely shouldn't buy at release. Either get it cheap later on if it appeals, or just not at all.

Also, 72 Euros? Holy crap that's expensive. Can't you just buy online? I'm getting my copy from PlayAsia (I live in Japan, but I want an English copy) for the equivalent of about 35 Euro. I wouldn't pay 72 Euro for it either.

 

[RX-7_FD3S]

I was expecting a lot from the new physics and the actual racing physics arent that bad, however once you go into drift mod, everything change and I hate that. Also the fact that when you turn traction control off and smash the accelerator in a corner, there's no wheelspin at all, sometimes if you have viper or something you feel the car sliding but the trottle input is minimized by the computer which is weird.

Also in drift mode, the computer counterbrake for you it seems it's really weird. On controller it's kinda hard too to really put the car where you want.

 

[Imari]

I was expecting a lot from the new physics and the actual racing physics arent that bad, however once you go into drift mod, everything change and I hate that. Also the fact that when you turn traction control off and smash the accelerator in a corner, there's no wheelspin at all, sometimes if you have viper or something you feel the car sliding but the trottle input is minimized by the computer which is weird.

Also in drift mode, the computer counterbrake for you it seems it's really weird. On controller it's kinda hard too to really put the car where you want.

This is going to be a stupid question, but that's with all assists off right? Controller or wheel? They've said that controllers have some unspecified unremovable assists, although I would have been expecting something to smooth out the steering and throttle inputs. They've also said that low powered cars get an automatic power boost in drift events to make them easier to get sideways, so depending on the car that might be a part of what you're seeing.

 

[tribolik]

I suspect there's probably quite a few people like yourself that would enjoy the game, but not at release prices. If/when it get to greatest hits status and starts selling for $20, I'm guessing there are a lot of people who will pick it up at that point just to have a go.

And that's fine too. There's clearly problems with the game, and depending on how important those problems are to you then those people absolutely shouldn't buy at release. Either get it cheap later on if it appeals, or just not at all.

Also, 72 Euros? Holy crap that's expensive. Can't you just buy online? I'm getting my copy from PlayAsia (I live in Japan, but I want an English copy) for the equivalent of about 35 Euro. I wouldn't pay 72 Euro for it either.

Yeap all stores here in Portugal have the game for sale from 69 to 75... grand turismo was 50 something

35? thats a good deal (for that price I would definitly buy it no matter what)...

I was expecting a lot from the new physics and the actual racing physics arent that bad, however once you go into drift mod, everything change and I hate that. Also the fact that when you turn traction control off and smash the accelerator in a corner, there's no wheelspin at all, sometimes if you have viper or something you feel the car sliding but the trottle input is minimized by the computer which is weird.

Also in drift mode, the computer counterbrake for you it seems it's really weird. On controller it's kinda hard too to really put the car where you want.

Wait... the physics change for drifting? again?

 

[xSTIG_JUNIORx]

Was never disappointed with Shift 1, never bored, restarted the career 5 times for the fun i had with it, was better than playing online for me.
Got bored with GT5 already !
Used Shift 1 till I got GT5...and guess what ?
Today, having them both, already bored with GT5 and went back for Shift, having fun till I get Shift 2 tomorrow.

 

[Spagetti69]

^ You will love this game.

 

[tinram]

"Got complaints, you don't like it? ... the game is not for you, just do not buy the game "

Deja vu, that's what i have been saying to naysayers of gt5. They did not listen, same thing will happen here.

But calling your self the the "most realistic..." with mediocre physics is silly. You have to be at least at par with the rest and then add the "realistic feel" to be better or the best.

 

[Jamesways]

And look on the bright side, a lot of the billboards and goofy track details have been "dialed back" as SMS said. Less amusement park rides, giant tents, billboards, flags, giraffes, etc.
It's true, Spa looks a lot more like Spa for example.

 

[Imari]

"Got complaints, you don't like it? ... the game is not for you, just do not buy the game "

Deja vu, that's what i have been saying to naysayers of gt5. They did not listen, same thing will happen here.

See, but it works (technically) if you tell them that before they buy it. If someone hates a game before they even play it, THEN goes and buys it and complains that it's bad I've got no sympathy at all.

On the other hand, if you buy a game that's a sequel of games that you like, and it appears from all things that you see that it should be a decent game and it turns out to be a steaming mound of horse manure, I think you might be somewhat justified in complaining. A little bit anyway. Of course, there's always people who take these things too far.

Still, we're going to be swamped by the Whine and Cheese club over the next few days, so it's good that we've got this thread ready to accept their input.

 

[tinram]

Actually, i would like to find out how folks that still play GT5 find this game?

Folks seem to be split with either you hate GT5 or Love it, Most who hate GT5 seems to like this game, more excitement and all. But i would like to find out what the folks who like GT5 think about this game. Specially when they have played it.

Based on the previews, it seems that the physics is still not at par with GT5 and FM3, but what does this mean? I want to feel that i control the car and that i can tell between the different cars specially at or past it's limits.

I'm not a physics snob, i like Dirt2 ( most say it has more arcady physics). In Dirt2 i can actually feel the car, I feel the weight transfer. I can induce over steer with the throttle, maintain it with counter steering etc.

 

[tribolik]

I think codemasters did a pretty good job on keeping Dirt 2 physics believable (unlike F1 2010 IMO)