Arab spring uprises Tunisia/Egypt/Libya/Syria

[niky]

Rival militias are fighting for control in Tripoli, former capitol of the former country of Libya. This is Mad Max-style anarchy, or close to it. Brought to us by the UN.
http://news.antiwar.com/2012/02/01/rival-militias-battle-in-tripoli/

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

"Let's create a power vacuum! Nothing bad can happen there!"

"But nature abhors a vacuum!"

"Screw nature!"

-

Teething problems were expected. The only question is whether these will be hard to overcome or almost impossible. I'm still waiting to see when stability will occur in Iraq (which was the best candidate for post-dictatorship stability) as an indicator of how long we may have to wait for Libya.

 

[Vince_Fiero]

The UN is drafting a resolution calling for regime change in Syria. Some think, like in Libya, it could lead to yet another civil war.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16804475

Respectfully,
Steve

I do believe there is a mission for the UN to help the respect of human rights. It is a difficult call how to do this though.


Also recently Egypt has unrest again, even after elections the challenge to run this country is quite real.

 

[Dotini]

I do believe there is a mission for the UN to help the respect of human rights. It is a difficult call how to do this though.


Also recently Egypt has unrest again, even after elections the challenge to run this country is quite real.

For DECADES, the American intelligentsia has been wondering and warning themselves about what would happen if the Arab street rose up and/or the Mideast, in lieu of strong dictatorships, went up in numerous spontaneous civil/sectarian wars.

Now, by the actions of their own hand, these self-styled "wise men" are about to found out! And then it might be too late...

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[Dotini]

All night long BBC radio have been making a great hue and cry over the uprising in Syria. It seems to me they pander to emotions of sympathy for the injuries suffered by rioting citizens and deserting (with their rifles) soldiers who are on the side of revolt and overthrow of the existing regime, and give a lot of airtime to wailing people who directly blame Russia and China for all their suffering. It seems to me, if they really want to have a civil war they should stop sniveling, man up and get on with the job of winning.

But the problem with democracy and civil war in these middle eastern countries comes right after the (usually Sunni) majority wins and starts eliminating the rights, and lives, of longstanding minorities such as Shia, Coptic Christians, Jews, Kurds and others.

BBC and other self-appointed arbiters of political correctness should be aware that there may well be unanticipated consequences of smashing existing institutions and fomenting additional disorder in an already disorderly region.

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[Liquid]

BBC and other self-appointed arbiters of political correctness should be aware that there may well be unanticipated consequences of smashing existing institutions and fomenting additional disorder in an already disorderly region.

Egypt is a prime example of this.

---

It's sad that we only seem to care about countries where we have economic interests. Look at Zimbabwe. It's a travesty what is happening there and has happened since the 1970s but all we ever hear is "Oh, that Mr. Mugabe is a naughty man" and nothing more. Why? Because there is nothing of value in Zimbabwe for the West. Britain helped put Mugabe in power, and look what he's done since. Electoral fraud, millions of starving citizens, innumerable deaths and opression against the whites.

Imagine how different the situation would be if Zimbabwe had oil reserves.

---

I of course feel sorry for the citizens in the Arab world and the troubles they endure/have endured/are enduring. But I can't listen to any politician talk about it 'being the right thing' or anything like that when there are plenty of other regimes that we turn a blind eye to or hope will go away.

 

[Vince_Fiero]

...It seems to me, if they really want to have a civil war they should stop sniveling, man up and get on with the job of winning.
...

This morning on the BBC a woman said, give us weapons and we will fight. Also the Syrian army is bombing Homs and the opposition replies with Kalashnikov fire, not at all an equal battle.

Where I do understand the point of the Russians/Chinese that it is internal affairs, using heavy military force against innocent civilians should be stopped. There is no power of the people this way, it is just the one that is attacked for criminal behaviour protecting his position with more crimes.

 

[Dotini]

This morning on the BBC a woman said, give us weapons and we will fight. Also the Syrian army is bombing Homs and the opposition replies with Kalashnikov fire, not at all an equal battle.

Where I do understand the point of the Russians/Chinese that it is internal affairs, using heavy military force against innocent civilians should be stopped. There is no power of the people this way, it is just the one that is attacked for criminal behaviour protecting his position with more crimes.

I spent more time listening to BBC this morning, and reading other sources.

It is reported that elements of the Syrian Army have deserted and are in insurgent mode, armed with (at least) mortars and RPG's in addition to rifles and machine guns. They are firing on government buildings, posts and positions in an attempt to overthrow the government, and are occasionally shielding themselves by moving among civilians, sympathetic or not. The government is of course attempting to defend itself, and stamp out the insurgents, as any government would do, whether in Syria, Russia, Britain or the US. Civilian casualties are an inevitable and very sad result.

It is reported that weapons and munitions are being smuggled to the insurgents from across the Turkish border, and are being reinforced, aided and advised by foreign fighters experienced in other rebellions in other countries. American and British NGO's and other covert agents are in the mix on the side of the insurgents.

The insurgents are Sunni Islamists for the most part, attempting to bring down the modestly secular Alawite regime of Assad. You can be assured that if the insurgents win, they would likely enslave, kill or drive out millions of Christians, Shia and Alawite.

In short, Syria is teetering on the brink of civil war, brought about by Sunni Islamists, the US, Britain (including the beeb) and its other enemies in the mideast.

In short, it is yet again another situation where might makes right. As yet, the heavy foot of NATO has been checked, but even so, a battle royal is underway for the highest stakes. Russian Spetsnaz boots may, stress may, be already on the ground. US, British and Israeli special forces may, stress may, be already on the ground. Where all this will lead is presently a giant and very dangerous unknown.

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[Vince_Fiero]

Clearly something is going to happen, we must indeed hope that there are no sides to be taken.

Syria, Russia, China and Iran against the rest?

I do not think it is worth that, but light intervention seems inevitable at least to balance the use of brute force of the few on the many.

The main story I got today was the orchestration of the Syrian media which was called a prime example of manipulation.

 

[rocko100]

Syrian officials got their E-mails hacked, which were protected by the password, 12345.

Thats like what some idiot would put on their luggage!

 

[YSSMAN]

Syria, Russia, China and Iran against the rest?

Most-likely? No.

China is too smart to get involved directly in the ordeals of Syria. While they harbor similar sentiments as Russia toward the Syrian regime, that area is out of their sphere of influence (SE Asia and Africa), and likely will not seek to get in the way of Western powers, regardless of what happens.

The Russians on the other hand is another situation. While I seriously doubt that open hostilities would ever come to fruition against the West should intervention occur, Russia is seemingly unlikely to want to have their only ally in the Middle-East removed from power.

Iran is the wild card. They're smarter than we think, and more than likely will not make a dumb move against the West. What they're worried about is that, if the Syrians can overthrow their government, little stands in the way of Iranians doing the same to theirs. More or less, its a matter of time for them. Increased sanctions will not help.


...If anything, we here in the West need to be more worried about what those seemingly trigger-happy Israelis do in the theater. One bad move on their behalf will tip that frying pan right over, and that is the kind of grease fire we cannot easily put out.

 

[niky]

I don't believe that Iran is that afraid of regime change, since the current government was democratically elected...







*Of course, the butterfly ballot in Florida probably helped the current regime win that one...

 

[Vince_Fiero]

...If anything, we here in the West need to be more worried about what those seemingly trigger-happy Israelis do in the theater. One bad move on their behalf will tip that frying pan right over, and that is the kind of grease fire we cannot easily put out.

I see the point that the Israelis could provoke a conflict to get more power on their side. However I do not see them help their neighbours, the regime and the people against the regime, they all will be against Israel. If they want to profit from the situation it seems best to let them kill each other and stay out of it.

In the meantime people cry out scandal and nothing changes.

 

[Dotini]

Are UK troops waging war on the ground in Syria?

This story, which is not the only one floating around, suggests that they are. http://rt.com/news/britain-qatar-troops-syria-893/

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[Vince_Fiero]

Are UK troops waging war on the ground in Syria?

This story, which is not the only one floating around, suggests that they are. http://rt.com/news/britain-qatar-troops-syria-893/

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

Rumors have been going around since a few days now, nothing confirmed and the countries that would do it will avoid the question.

They have a reason to do it: UN human rights chief urges action to halt escalating violence in Syria

 

[Sureboss]

Nice to see Russia coming out and saying it's the responsibility of the opposition to stop the violence.

 

[Vince_Fiero]

Saudi king says world confidence in U.N. is shaken

Not really understanding why he does not take more initiative in this case, he can probably move more then the West can in that region.

 

[Dotini]

Saudi king says world confidence in U.N. is shaken

Not really understanding why he does not take more initiative in this case, he can probably move more then the West can in that region.

I'm reasonably sure the sclerotic Wahhabi Saudi monarchy is doing everything it can do promote Sunni interests in the mideast, and to undermine the ruling Shia in Iran (non-Arab), Iraq and Syria. If they go too far, they risk retaliation against their oil exports.

I will once again reemphasize my belief that outside factions are fomenting insurrection and civil war in Syria. If this were to happen in the UK, US, Russia or China, the constituted government would rightfully stamp it out violently. It is only the pious moral posturing of the West that prevents us from recognizing the hypocrisy and double standards at work here. Morality is not really on our side. Brute force is. In a world where might makes right, the winners define morality for the rest at the point of gun.

Respectfully,
Steve

 

[Blitz24]

Assad's email was hacked, apparently he never went to "security 101 school"
http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entries/report-assads-office-hacked-password-was-12345

 

[Northstar]

Maybe he was just a fan of Space Balls.



Now if you'll excuse me I need to change some of my passwords.

 

[Vince_Fiero]

The Saoudis took up the challenge, respect for that, even if we might have doubt on the motivation.

@Dotini:
It is happening UK, US=> Occupy Wall street
Russia or China => we are not hearing a lot about it, but rumours are clear in the last weeks, anti Putin and anti corruption protest in China.
I do not disagree that the international reactions are less against this and the absence of usage of brute force is not always that clear. However the scale seems less, fully agree people should dare to attack those governments as well when they are important.

In a world where might makes right, the winners define morality for the rest at the point of gun.

Uebermensch theory, the one with might defines morality. Where this should not change rights (=not introduce wrong morality), it is inevitable for judgement of conflicts of rights (judgement is always subjective).

I agree that international intervention should only be to protect rights as discussed in the Human Rights thread and not impose subjective parts of the morality of the liberator.

 

[Dotini]

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/02/10/138593/us-officials-al-qaida-behind-syria.html

It is reported that al Qaida is responsible for the bombings in Aleppo. Let us recall that al Qaida is a Sunni Islamist terrorist organization with origins in Wahhabi Saudi Arabia and the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.

If the enemy of my enemy is my friend, then we have a great friend in al Qaeda, do we not? They helped the UN take down Kadaffi in Libya, and now they are helping us take down Assad in Syria. Terrorism must be a good thing, if it is used for the purposes of installing democracy, right? Somehow I don't think so.

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[sumbrownkid]

The thing about terrorism is that it's just an opinionated perspective depending from the viewpoint.

The PLO is seen as terrorists by the US and israelies but seen as resistance fighters to the Arab world. Bush is seen as a great president by some in America, while others see him as the worlds greatest terrorist.

Same with the IRA and the British Government.

People don't become a "terrorist" without a reason. It's not a career like the people on Fox News say it is. Some are forced into it, others are lured.

 

[Zenith]

Syrian General Assassinated

 

[Vince_Fiero]

If the enemy of my enemy is my friend, then we have a great friend in al Qaeda, do we not?

Somehow there is good and bad in everyone. Very similar to the Spanish Inquisition and the church. If Al Quaeda is helping to respect Human Rights without infringing rights of innocent others, they are doing something good. I do believe Al Quaeda is popular because they try to do good in many communities.

Nevertheless if Al Quaeda does infringe the rights of innocent others they are criminals. Lets just hope that they start seeing that and stop being criminals and concentrate on the good they can do. We need to lead by example.

 

[Dotini]

Somehow there is good and bad in everyone. Very similar to the Spanish Inquisition and the church. If Al Quaeda is helping to respect Human Rights without infringing rights of innocent others, they are doing something good. I do believe Al Quaeda is popular because they try to do good in many communities.

Nevertheless if Al Quaeda does infringe the rights of innocent others they are criminals. Lets just hope that they start seeing that and stop being criminals and concentrate on the good they can do. We need to lead by example.

The US and al Qaida are now joined as allies for the purpose of regime change in Syria (as they were in Libya), according to this Russian news analysis. This action is not sanctioned by the UN or by a Declaration of War by the US Congress. The US people have not been consulted, but thanks to Obama are now in league with the living, blood-dripping corpse of bin Laden. We are now zombies, whether we like it or not.
http://rt.com/news/us-al-qaeda-syria-otrakji-635/

This is either your worst nightmare if you consider that al Qaida were the perpetrators of the 9/11 World Trade Center/Pentagon attacks, or a dream come true if you like the idea of the world's most powerful people, America, united with the world's most evil fundamentalists. Together we are an invincible force for the permanent and universal revolution which the French Revolutionary Jacobins and Soviet Trotskyites could only dream of.

So now the simple joy and delight of killing people, toppling secular regimes and sowing anarchy in the world is given its ultimate expression in a Faustian pact between self-styled good and open evil. Particularly instructive to behold is the propagandist bathos on display whenever BBC or ABC/CNN run deliberately heart-rending scenes of injured or dead children alleged to be the doing of the secular regime - as if the Sunni insurgents had nothing whatever to do with it.

Regretfully submitted,
Steve

 

[sumbrownkid]

^America is like a loose woman who gave the entire frat Herpes.

 

[Dotini]

http://news.antiwar.com/2012/02/20/iraq-violence-drops-as-al-qaeda-heads-to-syria/

Sunni Al Qaeda fighters are reported pouring into Syria from Ninevah Province in Iraq.

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[Vince_Fiero]

... a dream come true if you like the idea of the world's most powerful people, America, united with the world's most evil fundamentalists. Together we are an invincible force for the permanent and universal revolution which the French Revolutionary Jacobins and Soviet Trotskyites could only dream of.

It is all about revolution. But you are right in warning this could lead quickly to ugly scenes.

The other point is that if the strategy is done by the west and the execution by the east, it is the east that will be seen as the good guys by the people and they will be able to put their foot down.

The article does not confirm the US involvement though, it just states it is highly likely.

 

[Touring Mars]

There's growing calls for intervention in Syria today as a Sunday Times journalist and a French photographer have been killed. President Sarkozy has now announced that "enough is enough".

Marie Colvin, who reported from Homs just hours before she was killed, was a remarkable and fearless journalist, and she is among a small band of extremely brave people who are able to show us what is really happening in Syria. Her work has demonstrated that there is a definite justification for doing something, and the Syrian people are perfectly justified in wondering why on Earth nobody is doing anything to help them as their government shells civilian areas indiscriminately.

But, it is a tragic irony that it takes the death of one well-known Western journalist to spark "outrage" at what is happening in Syria.

 

[Vince_Fiero]

but, it is a tragic irony that it takes the death of one well-known western journalist to spark "outrage" at what is happening in syria.

+1