Arab spring uprises Tunisia/Egypt/Libya/Syria

There's growing calls for intervention in Syria today as a Sunday Times journalist and a French photographer have been killed. President Sarkozy has now announced that "enough is enough".
But you don't go to war - especially a war with vast unknown consequences which involves the vital intersts of many nations and could lead straight to WWIII - simply because some of your nationals have gone into somebody else's war zone and got themselves killed. This is way too thin to stand as a casus belli, or to rate as what Christians would call a "just war"

Marie Colvin, who reported from Homs just hours before she was killed, was a remarkable and fearless journalist, and she is among a small band of extremely brave people who are able to show us what is really happening in Syria. Her work has demonstrated that there is a definite justification for doing something, and the Syrian people are perfectly justified in wondering why on Earth nobody is doing anything to help them as their government shells civilian areas indiscriminately.

But, it is a tragic irony that it takes the death of one well-known Western journalist to spark "outrage" at what is happening in Syria.

Let's not be lead by our emotions and fanned-up "outrage" into doing something precipitous, irreversible and which could easily lead to disastrous problems far beyond what we know.

Some speak of "what is really happening in Syria". But just what really is happening, beyond the micro-level of individuals getting killed or injured on a certain street or in a certain building?

Nothing is being said about the fact that an armed insurrection, a revolution, a civil war with a heavily religious basis is the view from 20,000'.

If the Sunni majority win the revolution, it is very likely that the minority Alawites, Shia and Christians, many millions of people, would be driven out, imprisoned or killed. We will have transformed a relatively tolerant secular society into a one-dimensional theocracy.

What right have we to intervene in somebody else's religious revolution? And maybe start a huge world war? No Congress would declare such a war. No ordinary Western working men and women would endorse or fight such a war. The UN security council (in the form of Russia and China) so far has ruled it out.

The people in the West who most fiercely want this war are the neocons and similar globalistic-thinking do-gooders who have become unhinged from the best interests of their own people and their own nations. "War fever", "War Hysteria", and unthinking emotional reactions are being deliberately provoked by media. Let us not be led into yet another disaster by our blundering elites. It's the time for healing and recovery from past and current wars - not the time for newer and bigger ones. Let's take three deep breaths and count to ten before stampeding over the cliff, please.

Respectfully submitted,
Steve
 
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Did not find a good article yet:
U.N. says there is evidence of violations done by the Syrian opposition including torture and killing.

I hope it is not a surprise, that is more reason for neutral intervention and stopping of the war on both sides. You can also let them kill each other and thousands of innocents with it.
 
But you don't go to war - especially a war with vast unknown consequences which involves the vital intersts of many nations and could lead straight to WWIII - simply because some of your nationals have gone into somebody else's war zone and got themselves killed. This is way too thin to stand as a casus belli, or to rate as what Christians would call a "just war"

Let's not be lead by our emotions and fanned-up "outrage" into doing something precipitous, irreversible and which could easily lead to disastrous problems far beyond what we know.

This was partly my point - it seems rather absurd that the death of a pair of journalists would spark EU leaders into calling for action...

Some speak of "what is really happening in Syria". But just what really is happening, beyond the micro-level of individuals getting killed or injured on a certain street or in a certain building?

Nothing is being said about the fact that an armed insurrection, a revolution, a civil war with a heavily religious basis is the view from 20,000'.

If the Sunni majority win the revolution, it is very likely that the minority Alawites, Shia and Christians, many millions of people, would be driven out, imprisoned or killed. We will have transformed a relatively tolerant secular society into a one-dimensional theocracy.

What right have we to intervene in somebody else's religious revolution? And maybe start a huge world war? No Congress would declare such a war. No ordinary Western working men and women would endorse or fight such a war. The UN security council (in the form of Russia and China) so far has ruled it out.

The people in the West who most fiercely want this war are the neocons and similar globalistic-thinking do-gooders who have become unhinged from the best interests of their own people and their own nations. "War fever", "War Hysteria", and unthinking emotional reactions are being deliberately provoked by media. Let us not be led into yet another disaster by our blundering elites. It's the time for healing and recovery from past and current wars - not the time for newer and bigger ones. Let's take three deep breaths and count to ten before stampeding over the cliff, please.

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

Wise words as usual, but I don't think that anyone in their right mind would accept that the UN or a coalition of 'do-gooders' as you might call them are after a war. But as to what right does anyone have to intervene - what of international law and the war crimes being perpetrated by the government? I'm suggesting that more can and should be done to stop the government from doing what they are currently doing, and that requires the threat of consequences if they continue to violate international law. But I'm not suggesting that the UN or anyone else ought to actively support the insurgency.
 
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...what of international law and the war crimes being perpetrated by the government?

Well, I'd be interested to know just exactly which and what international laws might be violated? When the US government put down Shay's Rebellion and later the Confederacy, was it against international law either at the time or now? I don't know, but I don't think so. When the Chinese put down armed rebellion by the Uighurs, is it against the law? What about suppressing Irish bombers? Was it against the law for Tamil families to be extinguished in Sri Lanka?

My point here is, "How can you tell if a sovereign government is acting legitimately to stamp out a riot or armed rebellion?" "Is there a standard in the law that makes some armed rebellions legally legitimate for outside intervention, and some not?"

I'm suggesting that more can and should be done to stop the government from doing what they are currently doing, and that requires the threat of consequences if they continue to violate international law. But I'm not suggesting that the UN or anyone else ought to actively support the insurgency.

"Aye, there's the rub!", as Shakespeare might have said. How do you stop the violent internal actions of a foreign government without aiding, protecting and ultimately arming the insurgency?


Respectfully submitted,
Steve
 
Well, I'd be interested to know just exactly which and what international laws might be violated?

I do believe you read the human rights thread, so it is against Natural Law, not written and universal.
You are right to say the actions of the government against rebels could be justified, however the number of innocent civilian victims is not.

For those who are wondering about today's big spike in the price of Brent crude oil, there's this report of an attack on Saudi Arabian oil pipelines: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/saudi-oil-pipelines-destroyed-explosion-sends-crude-soaring

Not only important, also scary, certainly adding it to the issues with Iran.
 
The world is finally taking firm action against the Syrian government!

The diplomats are being expelled!

Take that Syria!
 
Just got a report that Mubarak is 'clinically dead'.

Tahrir Square is packed with thousands upon thousands of emotional people; not a safe situation.

Edit: conflicting reports now from CNN newsroom vs Egyptian military. Military high-ups say not dead till buried.
 
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Now why would a Turkish jet be flying at low altitude and at high speed in Syrian airspace?

Show of force gone wrong? Recon work gone wrong?

In any case, if it were a US jet, Syria would be in rubbles a week later.
 
Encyclopedia
I don't think the US would want to spend more money on war.

Or maybe you do? You guys seem to love it.

If one of our jets were shot down, there would be an uproar.
 
War is never worthy of getting into. Economy will suffer, people will suffer, and in the end it's settled on conference table and trials. Why can't people just skip the war and get on the conference table in the first place?
 
Muslim Brotherhood representative Mohamed Morsi is the new President of Egypt. I guess America got what it wanted.
 
I don't think the US would want to spend more money on war.

Or maybe you do? You guys seem to love it.

No we don't. We wouldn't want to go to war now especially now since we have ended one in Iraq and bringing the curtains down in Afghanistan.

That said, you honestly think Americans will stand by if a supposedly "rogue" nation like Syria swats one of our airmen down? If anything, we'll send cruise missiles and destroy whatever Assad covets.

Would it be worth to go to war over? Depends on the possible outcomes, and if it serves our interests well. But right now, we are content to let Syria bleed dry.

Muslim Brotherhood representative Mohamed Morsi is the new President of Egypt. I guess America got what it wanted.

YAY! Democracy wins!
 
No we don't. We wouldn't want to go to war now especially now since we have ended one in Iraq and bringing the curtains down in Afghanistan.

That said, you honestly think Americans will stand by if a supposedly "rogue" nation like Syria swats one of our airmen down? If anything, we'll send cruise missiles and destroy whatever Assad covets.

Would it be worth to go to war over? Depends on the possible outcomes, and if it serves our interests well. But right now, we are content to let Syria bleed dry.



YAY! Democracy wins!

Yes, of course the democracy that won wants nothing to do with America and we probably now have a dependent on our hands that, when the moment arises, will gleefully attack Israel by tearing up the peace treaty and fully support Hamas. Such an intelligent move.
 
No we don't. We wouldn't want to go to war now especially now since we have ended one in Iraq and bringing the curtains down in Afghanistan.

That said, you honestly think Americans will stand by if a supposedly "rogue" nation like Syria swats one of our airmen down? If anything, we'll send cruise missiles and destroy whatever Assad covets.

No. I merely questioned going to war over such a thing.
 
Yes, of course the democracy that won wants nothing to do with America and we probably now have a dependent on our hands that, when the moment arises, will gleefully attack Israel by tearing up the peace treaty and fully support Hamas. Such an intelligent move.

Well if it's the will of the people then it's the will of the people. A democracy should not interfere with another democracy. And Egyptians being dependent on us? No sir, they are far from calling us to help them. The Egyptians have pride, and tons of it.

If the Egyptians want to attack Israel, then so be it. I'm sure the Israelis can handle themselves quite well. Why should we be worried?

That said I doubt Egypt will go into war immediately and be bent on Israeli destruction when they have their own issues to settle.

No. I merely questioned going to war over such a thing.

Well we did go to war under false pretenses before...
 
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sumbrownkid
Well we did go to war under false pretenses before...

This. If a US fighter had been shot down I wod he willing to bet we would start start another war. And with Israel involved, if off to the side, the US would and will get into it. As much as the US population say we hate war, we can't go very long with out them, just look at our past. Even if you don't count the Cold War as a real war, that still leaves very little gaps between the US's wars in the 20th century
 
Yes, of course the democracy that won wants nothing to do with America and we probably now have a dependent on our hands that, when the moment arises, will gleefully attack Israel by tearing up the peace treaty and fully support Hamas. Such an intelligent move.

Wants nothing to do with America's puppet strings you mean. There will be peace unless we go 1953 on them. Reminds me of Mossadeq anyway. I mean, who knows. When you have something that is so corrupt, it's hard to make clear of anything.

edit: Lol, a case for Anarchy:

 
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oopssorryy
This. If a US fighter had been shot down I wod he willing to bet we would start start another war. And with Israel involved, if off to the side, the US would and will get into it. As much as the US population say we hate war, we can't go very long with out them, just look at our past. Even if you don't count the Cold War as a real war, that still leaves very little gaps between the US's wars in the 20th century

We dont go to war a lot, we get involved in settling disputes because we have a great responsibility to help protect the sanctity of a unified diplomatic world order. As a major part of the UN, its our job to support our allies, and other countries that are battling oppression from radical tyranical leaders. I liken it to someone who witnesses a crime and cant stand by and let it happen, like it our not, America has the power to act, so we must do so if we feel there is unjustice. Yeah I guess we feel like superheroes sometimes, even if the other countries see us as nosey aggressors. Look at our previous wars and you will see that we were not the ones to initiate the first attack. We stepped in when we felt things were too far out of hand: Pol Pot invaded south Vietnam, Saddam invaded Kuwait, Germany invaded Europe.
 
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lemansfanatic
We dont go to war a lot, we get involved in settling disputes because we have a great responsibility to help protect the sanctity of a unified diplomatic world order. As a major part of the UN, its our job to support our allies, and other countries that are battling oppression from radical tyranical leaders. I liken it to someone who witnesses a crime and cant stand by and let it happen, like it our not, America has the power to act, so we must do so if we feel there is unjustice. Yeah I guess we feel like superheroes sometimes, even if the other countries see us as nosey aggressors. Look at our previous wars and you will see that we were not the ones to initiate the first attack. We stepped in when we felt things were too far out of hand: Pol Pot invaded south Vietnam, Saddam invaded Kuwait, Germany invaded Europe.

But is it truly our place to do that. Its massive systems of allies that cause both World Wars, and the Cold War. I'm not saying that the US should should return to its pre WW1 days, but acting like the world police when it suits us isnt right. The US ignores attempts of genocide in Africa, but then wants to step in when its benifial to us or its our ally. If the US and UN are going to act like worls police thats got to stop.

We need to find a balance between sending our troops all across the world and keeping them all in our borders. Yes the US is a world power but that doesnt mean that we have the right to dictate what the whole world does.
 
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... acting like the world police when it suits us isnt right...

You touched one critical point here, what are the motivations of helping someone.

Protecting innocent people should be undisputed. I will support anyone doing this anytime. Chasing down known criminals under other jurisdictions, is a different story.

We need to find a balance between sending our troops all across the world and keeping them all in our borders. Yes the US is a world power but that doesnt mean that we have the right to dictate what the whole world does.

1) Ideally there would be a UN mandate and approval of the appropriate governmental body. These systems are brought in place for a reason!

2) to dictate what the whole world does: that would be to put your man in place (like the USSR used to do). Honestly where there is a clear push to have "friendly" governments, it does not seem that the Allies are placing their "man" in the lead of the countries they went to "help".

3) Protecting your borders is looking at a man with a different tone of skin 1 m in front of you, where you do not notice the Tsunami that is arriving at 5km. World peace helps peace within your borders.
 
http://antiwar.com/blog/2013/04/25/why-obamas-chemical-weapons-red-line-in-syria-is-bogus/

Why Obama’s Chemical Weapons ‘Red Line’ in Syria Is Bogus
John Glaser, April 25, 2013

After months of being reluctant to address it, the White House today announced it now believes the Syrian regime of Bashar al-Assad has used chemical weapons in its bloody, two-year civil war.

“Our intelligence community does asses with varying degrees of confidence that the Syrian regime has used chemical weapons on a small scale in Syria, specifically the chemical agent Sarin,” the administration said in a letter.

This seems to violate President Obama’s “red line,” triggering some unspecified action presumed to be military in nature. Commentators are now saying the likelihood of a direct US military intervention is greater than ever. While it’s not clear whether that’s true, this talk about a “red line” is bogus.

Obama’s ‘Red Line’ Has Shifted Before


Last year, President Obama outlined what would be a “red line” for his administration, beyond which arguments against going to war in Syria would lose their weight. In August 2012 he said, “A red line for us is we start seeing a whole bunch of chemical weapons moving around or being utilized.”

And then in December when reports came out about the Assad regime “moving around” stockpiles of chemicals, with some analysts saying they were being mixed and possibly weaponized, the Obama administration stayed silent.

“Mr. Obama’s ‘red line’ appears to have shifted,” The New York Times reported. “His warning against ‘moving’ weapons has disappeared from his public pronouncements,” being replaced with a “new warning” that “if Mr. Assad makes use of those weapons, presumably against his own people or his neighbors, he will face unspecified consequences.”

The Obama administration has consistently noted the overwhelming costs of military action in Syria. The “red line” is just an obligatory warning meant to make them seem concerned about humanitarian suffering and to maintain the credibility of their threats of war. It has proven malleable before, and the administration could just as easily back out of it again.

Chemical Weapons Are Not a Game Changer

The supposed line that chemical weapons cross is almost entirely fictional. Consider Bilal Y. Saab, Executive Director of the Institute for Near East and Gulf Military Analysis, on why Obama’s supposed red line on the use of chemical weapons “lacks credibility.”

Why has the United States drawn a red line here and not elsewhere?


Obama’s words could reflect a humanitarian concern and a moral responsibility to prevent the further loss of life in Syria. Yet the president has not reacted forcefully to the tens of thousands who have already perished without a single poison being used. Chemical weapons are considered weapons of mass destruction, and if used effectively, could kill in the thousands. But so can fighter jets, helicopters, tanks and artillery—and they already have.

Indeed, chemical weapons hold a special place in the international psyche, but they are no more a threat to civilian life really than what has already been going on in Syria. If too much mass death were really the trigger for US intervention, why wasn’t the line drawn at 10,000? 30,000? UN estimates go as high as 70,000 dead. Any of these figures could have been used by the administration as a last straw, but there hasn’t been any intervention.

Obama Sees the Military Options as Too Costly


US military officials have been quick to point out the costs of war in Syria. A year ago, White House spokesman Jay Carney told a press conference, “We do not believe that militarization, further militarization of the situation in Syria at this point is the right course of action. We believe that it would lead to greater chaos, greater carnage.”

“We do nobody a service when we leap before we look, where we…take on things without having thought through all the consequences of it,” Obama said in a January 2013 interview with CBS. “We are not going to be able to control every aspect of every transition and transformation” in conflicts around the world, he added.

“In a situation like Syria,” he said in a separate interview with The New Republic, “I have to ask, can we make a difference in that situation? Would a military intervention have an impact? How would it affect our ability to support troops who are still in Afghanistan? What would be the aftermath of our involvement on the ground? Could it trigger even worse violence or the use of chemical weapons? What offers the best prospect of a stable post-Assad regime?”

And of the humanitarian rationale: “How do I weigh tens of thousands who’ve been killed in Syria,” he said, “versus the tens of thousands who are currently being killed in the Congo?”

In Senate testimony earlier this month, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel said “military intervention at this point could hinder humanitarian relief operations. It could embroil the United States in a significant, lengthy, and uncertain military commitment. Unilateral military action could strain other key international partnerships, as no international or regional consensus on supporting armed intervention now exists. And finally, military intervention could have the unintended consequence of bring the United States into a broader regional conflict or proxy war.”

The truth is, the US lacks feasible military options. A no-fly zone is likely to put more civilians at risk, and bombing the chemical stockpiles would be about as bad as Assad unleashing them on his own targets. If the US were to move in with ground forces to secure the weapons, it would take at least 75,000 troops, and any limited mission to secure the weapons would lend itself to mission creep and eventually turn into regime change with no viable interim government, which would then turn into a long and bloody occupation costing hundreds of thousands of lives and trillions of dollars as it did in Iraq. Finally, the intervention would lack both domestic and international legal legitimacy. This doesn’t even get me started on the far-reaching geo-political consequences.

Maybe the Obama administration will be goaded into war in Syria because of pressure from European allies (who won’t be doing the heavy lifting themselves) and from rabid interventionists in Congress of the John McCain type. But US reluctance thus far should temper fears that such a scenario is imminent.
 
I don't think its really surprising that Obama is attempting to avoid getting further involved in Syria. No one wants to be getting into yet another conflict right now and especially not Obama knowing the reputation America has in the region.
 
He likes drawing lines in the sand, maybe it makes him feel important. It's usually better to speak quietly and carry a big stick.

I'm not sure it is clear who used what when but we really don't care that much about the details, we have been a part of this from the start and I firmly believe we armed the rebels.
 
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