Arab spring uprises Tunisia/Egypt/Libya/Syria
- Thread starter Vince_Fiero
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Dotini
Yeah People here are going mad over the US media,people saying Obama would rather have the brotherhood leading to have control over the region.
Bottom line is this is a PEOPLE'S CHOICE, the masses have taken to the street in what the BBC called the largest gathering of people demonstrating.
Civil war is still sadly possible but i hope since the brotherhood leaders are trying to escape that the brotherhood youth will realise they're being played and will join in with the rebuilding of this Country.
Dotini
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The Muslim Brotherhood has been an organized party for about 80 years. They out-organized the opposition and won with 52% of the vote. A number of people chose not to vote, because their pet candidate did not make it to the final round.
Brotherhood leaders are now being arrested, and brotherhood TV stations are being seized by the military, with presenters, guests and producers taken away. An Al Jazeera station was shut.
Minutes ago, Obama urged the Egyptian military not to arrest Morsy or his supporters.
The US and the Egyptian military, who ran the country for decades under the dictator, have had a long and close relationship. This may or may not change.
The Egyptian military is notably corrupt. They run many of the few profitable businesses in Egypt in typically fascist fashion. They are not noted for any interest in providing electricity for the people.
Update: Reuters is reporting Morsy under arrest.
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Blitz24
Well their leaders are getting arrested,so it's upon them to look for a solution to this,as for how Morsi won the election it's because the revolutionary candidates were far too many thereby dividing the votes hence the top 2 candidates were Morsi and a former minister of the Mubarak regime,so after false promises and false advertising himself as a solution to islam alot of people(me included) decided to gamble with Morsi instead of someone associated with Mubarak.
Morsi then spent the year ruling the country to suit the brotherhood and Egypt was suffering badly,the people decided to overthrow him and that's that.
Of course your media will manipulate it and try to show Morsi as a good leader who was unjustly relieved by a Military coup which certainly isn't the case.
Dotini
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Our media reluctantly reveals that Morsi had shut off relations with Assad and was supporting the civil war of Sunni vs everybody else in Syria.
In the fine print you find that Coptic Christian churches in Egypt are being destroyed and the Christians being killed or driven off.
I assume Morsi is at heart an Islamist extremist of Sunni persuasion who would suppress Shia, Christians, Sufis and secularists alike if he got the chance. He is by all accounts a bad leader of Egypt. He is also polished, sophisticated and clever enough to get democratically elected. So he is indeed a real problem. Hint, hint.
If he had a shred of knightly honor, General Abdul Fattah Al-Sisi would swing the sword that beheads Morsi.
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Dotini
Indeed you are correct there,Morsi will probably stand trial for his actions
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Morsi is just another puppet.
Dotini
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In medieval England, beheading by axe or longsword was a preferred form of execution of royalty, nobility and knights for treason and other high crimes.
In The Game of Thrones it is suggested as a matter of honor that he who pronounces the sentence should deliver the execution. I've taken a fancy to the series and its many insights into medieval chivalry and honor.
Since Islam still dwells substantially in the medieval, and since Al-Sisi deposed and incarcerated Morsi, it seemed fitting that he deliver the final, fatal blow to the ruined president. No mercy, no Morsi.
This is a real question. Egypt is over 90% Muslim, mostly Sunni. The Muslim Brotherhood is the largest, most powerful organized party. If they feel unjustly deprived of their democratic election victory they may resort to guerrilla violence like they did in Algeria. That cost something like 100,000 lives.
Friday update:
Troops fire into crowd of pro-Morsi protesters, killing a few, reports BBC. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23202096#
I don't know if this sort of action will suppress the brotherhood, or make them more angry. It would be better for them to protest peacefully than to commence shooting and bombing, one would think.
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- Johnnypenso
The absurdity of this made me laugh:
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.co...rry-was-on-yacht-day-of-egypt-coup/?hpt=hp_t2
State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki issued a statement Wednesday saying any report or tweet that he was on a boat is completely inaccurate.
Since his plane touched down in Washington at 4 am, Secretary Kerry was working all day and on the phone dealing with the crisis in Egypt, Psaki said. He participated in the White House meeting with the President by secure phone and was and is in non-stop contact with foreign leaders, and his senior team in Washington and Cairo.
Then of course the photo's appeared in the paper and this came out.
"On Friday morning, Psaki issued a second statement, acknowledging that Kerry was briefly on his boat on Wednesday"
Reminds me of that expression, "Nero fiddled while Rome burned" except it's, "Kerry went yachting while Egypt fell into chaos"
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.co...rry-was-on-yacht-day-of-egypt-coup/?hpt=hp_t2
State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki issued a statement Wednesday saying any report or tweet that he was on a boat is completely inaccurate.
Since his plane touched down in Washington at 4 am, Secretary Kerry was working all day and on the phone dealing with the crisis in Egypt, Psaki said. He participated in the White House meeting with the President by secure phone and was and is in non-stop contact with foreign leaders, and his senior team in Washington and Cairo.
Then of course the photo's appeared in the paper and this came out.
"On Friday morning, Psaki issued a second statement, acknowledging that Kerry was briefly on his boat on Wednesday"
Reminds me of that expression, "Nero fiddled while Rome burned" except it's, "Kerry went yachting while Egypt fell into chaos"
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Dotini
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The ruling junta in Egypt has offered the political arm of the Muslim Brotherhood a few cabinet posts, which they have promptly rejected. Unless Morsi is released and restored as the legitimately elected president, it appears likely that Egypt is in for an indeterminate period of violence.
The military roadmap calls for a new constitution, parliamentary elections and presidential elections all to take place within 6 months. But with the most organized parties (who happen to be the most Islamic) not participating, and the remainder of the opposition haplessly disorganized into small factions, it seems to me a quick solution to the crisis is beyond them. In other words, they have completely messed up.
The only leverage the US has is $1.6 billion in annual aid, which appears now illegal under US law, and is anyway dwarfed by aid coming in from Saudi Arabia and elsewhere in the middle east.
It might be concluded that it's best just to let them kill each other and sort it out themselves. On the other hand, the world community has a stake in the outcome due in part to the following factors:
- the Suez Canal, it's control and access. This will affect shipping, military movements, global oil prices.
- the Egypt/Israel peace treaty. It's abrogation will have major adverse consequences.
- the entire middle east is boiling with revolution, insurrection and conflict. 87 million Egyptians erupting in civil war could blow the region wide open.
- the future of democracy, jihad in the Islamic world, civilian rule over military, humans rights of various kinds - all these are up for grabs.
The containment of violence, with the intent to diminish armed conflict is a precondition for establishing democracies.
-after von Clausewitz
The military roadmap calls for a new constitution, parliamentary elections and presidential elections all to take place within 6 months. But with the most organized parties (who happen to be the most Islamic) not participating, and the remainder of the opposition haplessly disorganized into small factions, it seems to me a quick solution to the crisis is beyond them. In other words, they have completely messed up.
The only leverage the US has is $1.6 billion in annual aid, which appears now illegal under US law, and is anyway dwarfed by aid coming in from Saudi Arabia and elsewhere in the middle east.
It might be concluded that it's best just to let them kill each other and sort it out themselves. On the other hand, the world community has a stake in the outcome due in part to the following factors:
- the Suez Canal, it's control and access. This will affect shipping, military movements, global oil prices.
- the Egypt/Israel peace treaty. It's abrogation will have major adverse consequences.
- the entire middle east is boiling with revolution, insurrection and conflict. 87 million Egyptians erupting in civil war could blow the region wide open.
- the future of democracy, jihad in the Islamic world, civilian rule over military, humans rights of various kinds - all these are up for grabs.
The containment of violence, with the intent to diminish armed conflict is a precondition for establishing democracies.
-after von Clausewitz
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Dotini
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http://thelead.blogs.cnn.com/2013/0...ratives-on-the-ground-during-benghazi-attack/
Breaking news from CNN on CIA Benghazi coverup. Up to 35 CIA operatives on the scene that night are now being muzzled, polygraphed monthly and held incommunicado to stall Congressional investigation into the mission.
It emerges the CIA, likely in cooperation with the State Department, was transferring weapons including MANPADS (ground-to-air missiles) from Libya through Turkey and other gulf states to Syria.
Something went horribly wrong that night when the bad guys starting killing Americans. Perhaps they bit the hand that fed them. Perhaps the mission was being rolled up and the bad guys reacted badly. Perhaps there was some sort of bungled kidnap plot. Who knows?
There will be a CNN special Tuesday, August 6 at 10pm EDT/PDT with more mainstream coverage.
Edit:
According to a new book written by former Navy SEAL Jack Murphy and former Army Ranger Brandon Webb, Obama’s counter-terrorism adviser John Brennan was directing secret raids on militias in Libya which ultimately led to a retaliation in the form of the Sept. 11 attacks on the Benghazi Consulate that killed four Americans, including US Ambassador Chris Stevens.
http://antiwar.com/blog/2013/02/13/...een-retaliation-for-secret-us-raids-in-libya/
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...have-led-to-benghazi-retaliation-book-claims/
“Brennan waged his own unilateral operations in North Africa outside of the traditional command structure,” the book says, calling it an “off the books” operation not coordinated with Petraeus and the CIA.
2nd edit:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-08-04/warning-to-americans-be-afraid-very-afraid.html
A skeptical opinon on the terror alert by award winning writer Jeffrey Goldberg of Bloomberg News.
Breaking news from CNN on CIA Benghazi coverup. Up to 35 CIA operatives on the scene that night are now being muzzled, polygraphed monthly and held incommunicado to stall Congressional investigation into the mission.
It emerges the CIA, likely in cooperation with the State Department, was transferring weapons including MANPADS (ground-to-air missiles) from Libya through Turkey and other gulf states to Syria.
Something went horribly wrong that night when the bad guys starting killing Americans. Perhaps they bit the hand that fed them. Perhaps the mission was being rolled up and the bad guys reacted badly. Perhaps there was some sort of bungled kidnap plot. Who knows?
There will be a CNN special Tuesday, August 6 at 10pm EDT/PDT with more mainstream coverage.
Edit:
According to a new book written by former Navy SEAL Jack Murphy and former Army Ranger Brandon Webb, Obama’s counter-terrorism adviser John Brennan was directing secret raids on militias in Libya which ultimately led to a retaliation in the form of the Sept. 11 attacks on the Benghazi Consulate that killed four Americans, including US Ambassador Chris Stevens.
http://antiwar.com/blog/2013/02/13/...een-retaliation-for-secret-us-raids-in-libya/
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...have-led-to-benghazi-retaliation-book-claims/
“Brennan waged his own unilateral operations in North Africa outside of the traditional command structure,” the book says, calling it an “off the books” operation not coordinated with Petraeus and the CIA.
2nd edit:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-08-04/warning-to-americans-be-afraid-very-afraid.html
A skeptical opinon on the terror alert by award winning writer Jeffrey Goldberg of Bloomberg News.
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It would appear that the predicted massacre of protesters in Cairo is unfolding this morning, just days after the end of Ramadan... analysts had said that the army would not risk conducting such a clearance of pro-Morsi (Muslim Brotherhood) protesters during Ramadan, but it appears that now that Ramadan is over, the army have finally lost patience with the pro-Morsi supporters... some very distressing images coming out of Egypt today, here for example: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/14/egypt-clear-cairo-sitins-live
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I saw some photos of it on twitter. Horrific stuff. About 90 people killed is the number I see the most. Some claim more.
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Reports of casualties are, as one might have expected, wildly variable - although AFP (French news agency) and Egypt's own news agency are both reporting around 150 dead with hundreds more injured.
It should be noted, however, that the claims that protesters were entirely unarmed and peaceful also look to be highly suspicious, and some footage does appear to show that some protesters were heavily armed and firing on police/army units.
It should be noted, however, that the claims that protesters were entirely unarmed and peaceful also look to be highly suspicious, and some footage does appear to show that some protesters were heavily armed and firing on police/army units.
Dotini
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For decades the Egyptian army brutally suppressed the brotherhood.
The path to relative peace and prosperity in Egypt, as they have had in the past, does not lie with democracy and allowing the MB to arise. Neither does it lie with allowing fuzzy-thinking liberal secularists any kind of choice or chancy voting in their future. The firm but benevolent hand of military authority under Al Sisi or Mubarek clone is sorely needed here.
The path to relative peace and prosperity in Egypt, as they have had in the past, does not lie with democracy and allowing the MB to arise. Neither does it lie with allowing fuzzy-thinking liberal secularists any kind of choice or chancy voting in their future. The firm but benevolent hand of military authority under Al Sisi or Mubarek clone is sorely needed here.
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It's a hellishly complicated scenario, although today's events have done immense damage to any chances of a peaceful solution being found any time soon.
I personally think that there is blame on all sides, and no-one can claim the moral high ground - all sides have made errors, and both sides involved in today's events, the Muslim Brotherhood and the Egyptian Army/Police, had legitimate grievances.
Morsi was elected with 52% of the popular vote, or around 15% of the population - but, he didn't use his short time in office well. Indeed, his heavy-handed attempt to give himself sweeping new powers flew in the face of the very democracy that gave him any legitimacy - in other words, it was a disasterous mistake and essentially paved the way for his overthrow. So when his supporters claim that he was democratically elected, they are quite right - but, they are not so quick to point out that being democratically elected does not give that leader the right to do whatever he wants and expect to get away with it.
I personally think that there is blame on all sides, and no-one can claim the moral high ground - all sides have made errors, and both sides involved in today's events, the Muslim Brotherhood and the Egyptian Army/Police, had legitimate grievances.
Morsi was elected with 52% of the popular vote, or around 15% of the population - but, he didn't use his short time in office well. Indeed, his heavy-handed attempt to give himself sweeping new powers flew in the face of the very democracy that gave him any legitimacy - in other words, it was a disasterous mistake and essentially paved the way for his overthrow. So when his supporters claim that he was democratically elected, they are quite right - but, they are not so quick to point out that being democratically elected does not give that leader the right to do whatever he wants and expect to get away with it.
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I am very impressed by your post which does indeed portray the events here with great accuracy rather than the "The MB are Victims" titles we hear about in foreign news agencies.
And Yes the MB were very much armed no question about it,incredibly sad how large the death toll is,seems the worst has hopefully passed.
Edit:Regarding Morsi ,yes he was failry elected yet he has been an utter laughable and failure of a president ,not to mention a liar whos sole purpose was to make the MB as powerful as they can be and the pictures don't lie when such vast numbers hit the streets calling him to step down you know something is wrong.Hope he stands trial for what he and his terrorist organisation have done.
Dotini
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According to various radio reports, including BBC, the overnight box score is about 500 dead protesters, 40 dead police and 3500 others shot up or burned - all Muslims fighting each other. The public squares have been cleared, leaving behind pools of blood, charred corpses and burned out mosques.
Watching from his luxury vacation villa, Obama with feet up condemns the violence, helpfully opining that this is not the way to democracy. He continues to spoon feed Egypt's military tiny drips of money, under the illusion this gives him leverage.
Oh by the way, the strong-as-spaghetti ElBaradei has resigned while the puppet civilian "President" Mansour wrings his hands, and the military - declaring a new state of emergency - has taken control over every city and province in the land.
Watching from his luxury vacation villa, Obama with feet up condemns the violence, helpfully opining that this is not the way to democracy. He continues to spoon feed Egypt's military tiny drips of money, under the illusion this gives him leverage.
Oh by the way, the strong-as-spaghetti ElBaradei has resigned while the puppet civilian "President" Mansour wrings his hands, and the military - declaring a new state of emergency - has taken control over every city and province in the land.
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Dotini
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http://www.nationalreview.com/corne...g-coptic-christian-churches-andrew-c-mccarthy
Yes, the peaceful protesters are torching Coptic Christian churches.
Edit:
In a statement this morning, a US presidential spokesperson says the Egyptian people are demanding human right and democracy. Noooo, they are demanding peace and prosperity. And above all, they revere their military army.
2nd edit:
An audio message was delivered by the president from Martha's Vineyard. He seemed to blame Egypt's army above all, and announced cancellation of US military training maneuvers with Egypt's army scheduled for next month, and made veiled threats to cut off further assistance.
Yes, the peaceful protesters are torching Coptic Christian churches.
Edit:
In a statement this morning, a US presidential spokesperson says the Egyptian people are demanding human right and democracy. Noooo, they are demanding peace and prosperity. And above all, they revere their military army.
2nd edit:
An audio message was delivered by the president from Martha's Vineyard. He seemed to blame Egypt's army above all, and announced cancellation of US military training maneuvers with Egypt's army scheduled for next month, and made veiled threats to cut off further assistance.
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- 29,369
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...and run the risk of coming into direct agreement with US law? Not bloody likely.
edit: A good article here in the Economist:
http://www.economist.com/news/brief...reets-cairo-damaging-development-and-could-be
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Dotini
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From the excellent article:
"Its ties with wealthy Gulf states such as Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates have helped secure the post-coup regime aid to the tune of $12 billion, enough to tide the country over for many months and to make up for any aid America may eventually withhold if, faced with blood on the streets, the Obama administration abandons its insistence that the ousting of Mr Morsi was not a coup, a posture that allows military aid to keep flowing."
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State of emergency is yet another sad outcome of what happened(was one of the revolution's demand to cancel said law)however it seems that it was a needed call to take control,doubt it will last a month though.
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