Arab spring uprises Tunisia/Egypt/Libya/Syria

[Wiegert]

Gaddafi has now blamed the uprising against his rule on Osama bin Laden during a telephone call live on Libyan television. He also says that young protesters were "trigger happy and they shoot especially when they are stoned with drugs". News source

 

[TT3AZ]

The problem with all this is, that once the dictator government falls, the radical islamic groups can take over and rule. We cant deny that many radical islamic groups wants to rule the countries in middle east and north africa. I dont support dictatorship, but far to many governments dont fight the radical groups with enough force. The funny thing is also that US supports many dictatorships that has "black gold", thats why the suck up for the Saudis, who according to me is the ones that "feeds" many radicals islamists. No one can deny that the Saudi government is a BS dictator wahabi government.

Some people maybe want democracy for freedom of speech etc, some peope want democracy just so they can vote for the sharia laws and islamic rule etc. You must look at this from different angles, and that is what the west fails to do.

Its just like the situation in Chechniya, the president is supported by the Russian government because Russia have military bases in Chechniya. Sure the president of Chechniya defeat and kill many islamic rebels that wants to attack the Russian bases, but on the other hand the president himself is a extremist and wants the sharia law.

Conclusion? The "big" governments support questionable persons just because they have interest in various countries. US and Russia gives a rats ass about democracy because they were the ones that supported the dictators from the first beginning.

The situation can never be better in these countries if the people arent willing to change their thinking and mentality. If these countries get democracy and gets developed, then many islamic groups going to complain that the country is getting to "westernised", and then start riots and bombings. Islamic extremists want sharia law in europe even, doesnt that tell you something about the mentality of these so called "muslim brotherhood a.k.a Saudi sponsored people"?

 

[sumbrownkid]

Gaddafi has now blamed the uprising against his rule on Osama bin Laden during a telephone call live on Libyan television. He also says that young protesters were "trigger happy and they shoot especially when they are stoned with drugs". News source

Was Gaddafi stoned also whilst making this phone call video?

 

[sumbrownkid]

The problem with all this is, that once the dictator government falls, the radical islamic groups can take over and rule. We cant deny that many radical islamic groups wants to rule the countries in middle east and north africa. I dont support dictatorship, but far to many governments dont fight the radical groups with enough force. The funny thing is also that US supports many dictatorships that has "black gold", thats why the suck up for the Saudis, who according to me is the ones that "feeds" many radicals islamists. No one can deny that the Saudi government is a BS dictator wahabi government.

Some people maybe want democracy for freedom of speech etc, some peope want democracy just so they can vote for the sharia laws and islamic rule etc. You must look at this from different angles, and that is what the west fails to do.

Its just like the situation in Chechniya, the president is supported by the Russian government because Russia have military bases in Chechniya. Sure the president of Chechniya defeat and kill many islamic rebels that wants to attack the Russian bases, but on the other hand the president himself is a extremist and wants the sharia law.

Conclusion? The "big" governments support questionable persons just because they have interest in various countries. US and Russia gives a rats ass about democracy because they were the ones that supported the dictators from the first beginning.

The situation can never be better in these countries if the people arent willing to change their thinking and mentality. If these countries get democracy and gets developed, then many islamic groups going to complain that the country is getting to "westernised", and then start riots and bombings. Islamic extremists want sharia law in europe even, doesnt that tell you something about the mentality of these so called "muslim brotherhood a.k.a Saudi sponsored people"?

You hit the nail on a lot of the underlying motives between both East and West.

But I also like to add in that a lot of these guys support radical Islamist groups because they are seen as the opposing force that stands its ground against the West (America really.) A lot of people over there do bear harsh grudges against America be it justified or unjustified. It's also an outlet against Democracy altogether, because since the West and America has it, they must be against it because Western democracy is somehow or someway destroying or destroyed their ways of life.

Which is sad because Islam had Democracy in it.

My dad always said its easy to manipulate the uneducated and the angry.

 

[zedextreme8177]

Gazzafi has officially gone insane, considering those recent remarks. I sure hope his loyalists still have an ounce of humanity in them.

I frankly wouldn't be worried about radicals taking over. They have long proven that they care even less for their own people (see the Taliban government in Afghanistan).

Radicals would have little support, if any.

And it would be best for the US to stay out of this. The governmenthas already propped up enough dictators in that region, because of national interests.

US goverment supports worldwide democracy and freedom my arse. I don't see any condemnation of the Saudi government, while Iran is completely hammered at daily since the 1979 revolution.

 

[TT3AZ]

Gazzafi has officially gone insane, considering those recent remarks. I sure hope his loyalists still have an ounce of humanity in them.

I frankly wouldn't be worried about radicals taking over. They have long proven that they care even less for their own people (see the Taliban government in Afghanistan).

Radicals would have little support, if any.

And it would be best for the US to stay out of this. The governmenthas already propped up enough dictators in that region, because of national interests.

US goverment supports worldwide democracy and freedom my arse. I don't see any condemnation of the Saudi government, while Iran is completely hammered at daily since the 1979 revolution.

That indeed is very true, it is also hard to know how and when radical islamism will be implemented if these dictator government falls. I would be worried that radicals can take the power, or it could become like Afghanistan, where the government isnt taliban itself, but the talibans controll many areas. Without a strong leadership and active work against islamic extremism, the extremists will grow. Even though Ghaddafi makes wierd statements some times, the radical extremists are aganist him because
they havent had a chanse to rule in Libya, and thats what bothers them. I personly think Ghaddafi have done some good stuff, like free education for both men and woman. On my list of hated dictators, I cant say that Ghaddafi comes on first place, certalny not.

Another good question we can ask our selves is in which extent could the islamic extremist be involved in these riots in the middle east and north africa? According to many extremists, the rulers of muslim countries are "corrupt", and the extremists make up an illusion that everything will be better with strict islamic laws and customs a.k.a the talibans, the Saudi wahabi government and the ayatollahs in iran.

Poverty, unemployment etc, can surtenly affect people to join these radical groups and fight for what they call "freedom". We just have to look at our western countries, its the same mentality here even though the western countries arent islamic. In the US for example, how many people arent cursing Obama due to high unemployment etc, and starts to get involved in these white supremacy groups? After all east and west arent that different.

 

[Dotini]

We ought to hurry and start a thread on how many ways to spell "Gaddafi" before he's dead and gone.

Quite honestly, he reminds me of a character out of a bad James Bond movie, what with his high-heeled female Amazon "security" detail and his well-endowed "nurses". It is to laugh.

 

[DK]

In the US for example, how many people arent cursing Obama due to high unemployment etc, and starts to get involved in these white supremacy groups?

It is a general phenomenon that during these recessionary times, people will flock to the extreme ends of the political spectrum. That's how the Nazis and Mussolini's Fascists got into power, as people lost faith in parties which supported democracy. Plus, people in general don't like to blame themselves, and find scapegoats for their problems. A simple example is the Jews, who were used as scapegoats by the Nazis. You could also extend that to the victims of Stalin's Purges during the 30s.

 

[TT3AZ]

It is a general phenomenon that during these recessionary times, people will flock to the extreme ends of the political spectrum. That's how the Nazis and Mussolini's Fascists got into power, as people lost faith in parties which supported democracy. Plus, people in general don't like to blame themselves, and find scapegoats for their problems. A simple example is the Jews, who were used as scapegoats by the Nazis. You could also extend that to the victims of Stalin's Purges during the 30s.

That is true, and by that said, we can see that all people regardless of religion or race are quite similar in their way of thinking. And since the world is globalized, these problems arent only the egyptians or the tunisians, it is problems of all mankind. These activities happening in middle east and north africa affects us in western countries more than we think.

 

[lbsf1]

Gadaffi once again threatens violence against protestors and violence gets nearer and nearer Tripoli.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/25/protests-reach-tripoli-gaddafi-speech-shooting

 

[terminator363]

I just saw this protester get shot by a mercinary, absolutely awful I mean you can see his brain pouring out of his head (since half of it was blown off). As the fellow protesters pull his body away from the scene. Absolutely horrific and dreadful this.

 

[TT3AZ]

I just saw this protester get shot by a mercinary, absolutely awful I mean you can see his brain pouring out of his head (since half of it was blown off). As the fellow protesters pull his body away from the scene. Absolutely horrific and dreadful this.

This is horrific, but we must also consider why Ghaddafi use these forces. As I wrote before, there are no guaranties that it will be peace, just because the government falls. Even if all dictators in these countries give up, it will still be bloodshed on the streets, due to the different groups that wants to take the power. Ghaddafi certanly knows the danger of letting these radicals groups getting into power.

 

[blaaah]

In Egypt Mubarak has gone, but the Military police are beating and imprisoning protesters as of last night.

 

[sumbrownkid]

This is horrific, but we must also consider why Ghaddafi use these forces. As I wrote before, there are no guaranties that it will be peace, just because the government falls. Even if all dictators in these countries give up, it will still be bloodshed on the streets, due to the different groups that wants to take the power. Ghaddafi certanly knows the danger of letting these radicals groups getting into power.

In the case of Libya, if Ghaddafi keeps this up, this has the chance to unify all the opposition parties against him.

What happens after if they succeed in getting rid of that rat really depends on if they receive foreign support.

 

[terminator363]

I'm still curious if Ghaddafi will flea to Zimbabwe to Robert Mugabe.

 

[Crash]

Why would Gaddafi flee to Zimbabwe? If anything, I can see Italy offering exile to Gaddafi in return for stopping the bloodshed and handing over power.

 

[Dotini]

What is driving all these revolts, insurrections and revolutions? Is it desire for freedom and democracy? Is it Facebook and Twitter? Or is it simple hunger?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...eart-of-this-wave-of-revolutions-2226896.html

 

[YSSMAN]

It has more to do with education and unemployment, I think. The more the young people are aware of the outside world and how their leaders have failed to live up their promises following independence from outside rule, the more likely revolution will be.

These people in the Middle-East are not as ass-backwards as the American media would have our citizens believe. They want much the same of what we do; A decent job with a reasonable wage, a modest home with room for a growing family, an education for their children, and food on the table every night. When their leaders promise it, but cannot deliver, it is no wonder why they're being challenged left and right.

 

[blaaah]

The military might is posturing now, of the 13 protest countries this is the one that's a target for oil. A No fly zone is soon to be enforced over Libya, American and British/European military forces to control Libya.

 

[Dotini]

The military might is posturing now, of the 13 protest countries this is the one that's a target for oil. A No fly zone is soon to be enforced over Libya, American and British/European military forces to control Libya.

By what sanction or authority is a "no-fly" regime to be enforced over Libya? If this is to have any legitimacy, especially with the protesting Libyans, it has to be ordained by the UN, no?

 

[blaaah]

Before anything went to the UN, America already said they will take any action necessary.
But it has gone to the UN, sanctions are in place, No fly zone in planning stage.
And would you believe it, the access all area pass card has been shown, the WMD card, in this case, chemical weapons. Military force is needed to control Libya as there are fears Ghaddafi may use Mustard gas to wipe out his enemies
Seems very convenient. Just like Iraq.
.............
Also the no fly zone would not just be limited to that, experts are saying Nato would use air strikes to take out ground forces attacking protesters and also of course any Libyan aircraft, mostly of issue are the helicopters. Nato would also destroy any known stores for the chemical weapons.
Britain can use Cyprus to launch it's aircraft from , the US is positioning it's aircraft carriers, the USS Enterprise moved from the Red Sea, and the USS Kearsage amphibious landing ship.
This is a perfect opportunity for Iran to divert it's Frigate and supply vessel to loiter offshore of Libya, even if it is just to annoy the West, it's already not far away.

 

[Dotini]

Before anything went to the UN, America already said they will take any action necessary.
But it has gone to the UN, sanctions are in place, No fly zone in planning stage.
And would you believe it, the access all area pass card has been shown, the WMD card, in this case, chemical weapons. Military force is needed to control Libya as there are fears Ghaddafi may use Mustard gas to wipe out his enemies
Seems very convenient. Just like Iraq.
.............
Also the no fly zone would not just be limited to that, experts are saying Nato would use air strikes to take out ground forces attacking protesters and also of course any Libyan aircraft, mostly of issue are the helicopters. Nato would also destroy any known stores for the chemical weapons.
Britain can use Cyprus to launch it's aircraft from , the US is positioning it's aircraft carriers, the USS Enterprise moved from the Red Sea, and the USS Kearsage amphibious landing ship.
This is a perfect opportunity for Iran to divert it's Frigate and supply vessel to loiter offshore of Libya, even if it is just to annoy the West, it's already not far away.

Are you a chess player, blaaah?

 

[TT3AZ]

How come the west only criticize some dictator countries? But not criticize countries like Saudi Arabia, China, and India? Those countries are not democratic accoring to me, and by democracy I mean the type you have in western countries. Ohh I forgot, the US has interests in those countries. The US only wants to get rid of Ghaddafi so they can put another pupet in charge, just like they did in Iraq.

 

[Dotini]

How come the west only criticize some dictator countries? But not criticize countries like Saudi Arabia, China, and India? Those countries are not democratic accoring to me, and by democracy I mean the type you have in western countries. Ohh I forgot, the US has interests in those countries. The US only wants to get rid of Ghaddafi so they can put another pupet in charge, just like they did in Iraq.

Superior question, but answered itself!

 

[blaaah]

Simple national interest, life is not only down to morals, a British minister said it himself recently talking about arms trade, he said something like, just because we deal in arms with countries that are not considered socially acceptable does not mean we support that country or regime, we are just doing business, which is what goes on every day it the general running of things, it's life. (can't find the quote sorry)


Nice and frank message there. So morality is only a part of the public face of politics. Politics does not run on morality, it's mostly business, business it what makes things work in society, not saying something is wrong or right...Only when the public start interfering it gets muddled up so a cabinet minister might have to say something, or a President will give his public view, but it's all BS. once the public are dealt with it's back to business, which helps keep the country solvent. Truly "moral" countries would stay in the stone age. There would be little financial success or power.


Britain was playing it softly softly with Libya, until just recently. It was expecting upto £10 billion in payment from Libya in secret deals, as a kind of pay off resulting from the Semtex bombs Libya provided to terrorists. This is now out the window due to recent events, the British ministers/civil servants involved in the deal must be distraught.

 

[TT3AZ]

As long as these countries hasnt got a fully working infrastructure nothing will be better. I mean these countries earn a big amount of money from their oil, and get money from other countries aswell. Why isnt there enough schools, hospitales, jobbs, etc, etc? Well, thats because the leaders in the society are corrups and take all money for them selves. It is just like it was in Palestine when Arafat ruled, he had millions of dollars in his account, that he had got from countries that tried to help Palestine. The same is with many african countries, they ger billions in help aid, but does the people get anything? NO they dont. Those countires have to be rebuild from scratch, and with leaders that have different mentality.

Too bad western countries in the same hand support these leaders, pretty strange? Its all about cheap labour, the international corporations need poor people working their asses of in the factories for free. Thats also why countries like China and India havent been investigated by the west. If the quality of life and education increases in these third world countries, then the international corporation no longer can exploit these people. Why work 12 hours aday for nothing, when you can get a better job? Our western countries are to dependent on the third world countries, because we can exploit them, because we are their only option. Why do you think western ****ries are so anti-Iranian? That is because they dont need the support from the US. Countries that dont suck up for the US, are the enemies of US, period!

 

[blaaah]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/8355759/Hollow-threats-that-will-impress-no-one.html
Article about Britain having no punching weight regarding Libya, overseas military capabilities. I think what they can still do and can continue to do indefinitely is operate special forces missions anywhere in the world, and achieve what those missions are designed to do. Which is good as it's quite cheap. I don't have a problem with all the cuts if they increase special forces budgets, for personal/training,equipment including their own vehicles be they land/air or sea.

 

[sumbrownkid]

Before anything went to the UN, America already said they will take any action necessary.
But it has gone to the UN, sanctions are in place, No fly zone in planning stage.
And would you believe it, the access all area pass card has been shown, the WMD card, in this case, chemical weapons. Military force is needed to control Libya as there are fears Ghaddafi may use Mustard gas to wipe out his enemies
Seems very convenient. Just like Iraq.
.............
Also the no fly zone would not just be limited to that, experts are saying Nato would use air strikes to take out ground forces attacking protesters and also of course any Libyan aircraft, mostly of issue are the helicopters. Nato would also destroy any known stores for the chemical weapons.
Britain can use Cyprus to launch it's aircraft from , the US is positioning it's aircraft carriers, the USS Enterprise moved from the Red Sea, and the USS Kearsage amphibious landing ship.
This is a perfect opportunity for Iran to divert it's Frigate and supply vessel to loiter offshore of Libya, even if it is just to annoy the West, it's already not far away.

That may happen, but does the public really have the stomach for another war? At a time when the economy is just sputtering back to some form of life?

If we invade Libya, it may just give the extremists and other factions in Iraq and Afghanistan an excuse to stir up another insurrection.

 

[Dotini]

A peace deal may be in the works, brokered by the Arab League and one Hugo Chavez.

 

[blaaah]

Wars are a great way to get the economy going.
Look what happened to America, Germany, Japan after the world war. Very strong economies. But it can go either way I suppose.