Arab spring uprises Tunisia/Egypt/Libya/Syria

[lbsf1]

I want the rebels to suceed, its obvious its what the people what however they can't get it because the minority of the people have most the power and weapons so can stop them.

People are to keen to say its america and the uk imposing power on others however I prefer to see it as the UN is helping the people however need help from other countries to impose this.

 

[drivehard]

People are to keen to say its america and the uk imposing power on others however I prefer to see it as the UN is helping the people however need help from other countries to impose this.

Nothing happened until the U.N. approved these measures, unlike America's previous wars. Progress!

What happens next?

How will this all end?

 

[Dotini]

Nothing happened until the U.N. approved these measures, unlike America's previous wars. Progress!

What happens next?

How will this all end?

Beyond more violence, I don't know what happens next, but I think what should happen at the end is a division between eastern Libyans and western Libyans, who are historically different cultures. The current state of Libya is an artificial one imposed by ignorant tyrants.

 

[sems4arsenal]

They are calling it Odyssey Dawn .Libyian State TV Report that these attacks have hit Innocent People although hardly anything truthfull come out of them.I am For this attack The Libyan People are in dire need of Help and actions are needed

 

[lbsf1]

They are calling it Odyssey Dawn .Libyian State TV Report that these attacks have hit Innocent People although hardly anything truthfull come out of them.I am For this attack The Libyan People are in dire need of Help and actions are needed

They probably would have hit some innocent people, however its a choice, some innocent get killed by their own "leaders" and then don't get what they want (to topple gadafi), or for some sadly to be killed in the fighting to get the people into power, and as this means they need foreign help.

EDIT: Confirmation american and british submarines fired 110 Tommahawk missiles in to gaddafi's air defences,
and then in return gaddafi says that his forces has never fired at any of their own people . :laugh:


EDIT2: Gaddafi is speaking live on tv telling everyone to get arms and fight the foreign "invaders".

 

[drivehard]

Beyond more violence, I don't know what happens next, but I think what should happen at the end is a division between eastern Libyans and western Libyans, who are historically different cultures. The current state of Libya is an artificial one imposed by ignorant tyrants.

I really hope that something good comes of all this.

I sit here in front of my T.V. uncertain about the real situation in Libya.

I feel for those oppressed. I feel suspicious of the U.N. I feel anxious to see how this all unfolds.

Once again bombs are being dropped.

 

[Dotini]

I really hope that something good comes of all this.

I sit here in front of my T.V. uncertain about the real situation in Libya.

I feel for those oppressed. I feel suspicious of the U.N. I feel anxious to see how this all unfolds.

Once again bombs are being dropped.

It has begun.

But it shouldn't have started.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC07ykFMXyM&feature=player_embedded
(Ron Paul explains the unconstitutionality of this war.)

 

[Dennisch]

Gadhafi has completely lost it,

He's holding a speech right now, and he wonders why he is attacked by the UN...

 

[alexleighton]

It has begun.

But it shouldn't have started.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC07ykFMXyM&feature=player_embedded
(Ron Paul explains the unconstitutionality of this war.)

Ron Paul seems to talk sense 90% of the time, then he says something completely nuts that makes me shake my head.

I 100% agree with him right now though, this is a civil war in Libya and we have no right to intervene.

And as plenty of others have pointed out, this is clearly not about "protecting innocent civilians" as they claim, otherwise we'd be bombing Yemen and Bahrain and would have bombed several other African nations in the past during their civil wars when there were genocides happening.

But because those countries have no value to the west, no intervention was deemed necessary. The hipocracy is just sickening.

 

[drivehard]

h

Ron Paul seems to talk sense 90% of the time, then he says something completely nuts that makes me shake my head.

I 100% agree with him right now though, this is a civil war in Libya and we have no right to intervene.

And as plenty of others have pointed out, this is clearly not about "protecting innocent civilians" as they claim, otherwise we'd be bombing Yemen and Bahrain and would have bombed several other African nations in the past during their civil wars when there were genocides happening.

But because those countries have no value to the west, no intervention was deemed necessary. The hipocracy is just sickening.

The thing with Ron Paul is that to put those ideas in motion is much harder then simply: 💡 But I'm a fan anyway.

So does anyone know what this is about with some certainty?

 

[Dotini]

So does anyone know what this is about with some certainty?

In addition to Tunisia, Egypt, Bahrain and Libya, Arabs in Yemen, Syria and even elsewhere (Saudi Arabia is the big one) are also attempting to rise up against their regimes. No one in their wildest dreams ever thought the "Arab street" would have the nads to do this. But they are. Our leaders don't really know what to do. Ron Paul advises to do what we say we're supposed to do, i.e., follow the Constitution. Too bad the Constitution is a dead letter, a magnificent anachronism, a relic of a lost world and time.

 

[Akira AC]

I don't get this attack by the UN,if there is an actual civil war then it wouldn't be an internal affair,I found quite strange that they only attacks that I have heard the last two days is bombings by the French fighters and cruise missiles by the US.

Apart from that,the resolution from the UN is also strange,specially adding that the resolution was quickly accepted,the resolution document is not very "legal" and irregular conditions were point out by the representatives from Germany, Russia and India.

Thus far,I believe that the media has a great deal with this,just like the nuclear crisis in Japan,which is advertised just as the Chernobyl,the problem here is that some governments seem to have some interest over the controlled areas,where main oil rigs are placed,the thing is that the UN and some members become really alarmed by the retake of Benghazi by the Gadafi forces.

From my point of view I see this invasion(yes,is an invasion according to the Geneva convention)as a provocation that might end in an slaughter,like in Iraq,Iran and Afghanistan,therefore no intervention from foreign forces should be executed except for peace talks and political manners.

 

[Ardius]

^I don't think Allied forces have stepped over the mark just yet, but are very close to it. Taking out the anti-air defences and starting airstrikes is all par for the course in creating a no-fly zone and "defending civilian populations".

But what happens when an Allied pilot is shot down and captured? This can very easily escalate and increased involvement can become harder and harder to avoid.

 

[drivehard]

I don't get this attack by the UN,if there is an actual civil war then it wouldn't be an internal affair,I found quite strange that they only attacks that I have heard the last two days is bombings by the French fighters and cruise missiles by the US.

Apart from that,the resolution from the UN is also strange,specially adding that the resolution was quickly accepted,the resolution document is not very "legal" and irregular conditions were point out by the representatives from Germany, Russia and India.

Thus far,I believe that the media has a great deal with this,just like the nuclear crisis in Japan,which is advertised just as the Chernobyl,the problem here is that some governments seem to have some interest over the controlled areas,where main oil rigs are placed,the thing is that the UN and some members become really alarmed by the retake of Benghazi by the Gadafi forces.

From my point of view I see this invasion(yes,is an invasion according to the Geneva convention)as a provocation that might end in an slaughter,like in Iraq,Iran and Afghanistan,therefore no intervention from foreign forces should be executed except for peace talks and political manners.

I really don't know what I think about these attacks.

But if the Libyans in the east are throwing rocks and Ghadafis forces are a legitamite military dosen't that make it a slaughter rule?

 

[lbsf1]

^I don't think Allied forces have stepped over the mark just yet, but are very close to it. Taking out the anti-air defences and starting airstrikes is all par for the course in creating a no-fly zone and "defending civilian populations".

But what happens when an Allied pilot is shot down and captured? This can very easily escalate and increased involvement can become harder and harder to avoid.

The longer this lybian crisis goes on the more fuel prices rise (they have allready risen 5p in the time here in the uk).

Is the price of a (probably relatively short) war worth it, unlike Iraq and saddam hussain, Qaddafi doesn't have many supporters, I think if the whole of the UN went in then It could be over relatively quickly (less than a week). Getting Qaddafi out of power as quick as possible I think is the main objective to help everyone.

 

[Ardius]

War is anything but quick and Gaddafi is not a moron, he knows how to make this last as long as possible.
And do we really believe Libya will be a stable country just by removing Gaddafi?

We should be helping but I worry that by becoming involved we only become stuck in yet another drawn out conflict helping a country rebuild in a very unstable area. Not only that, but it looks rediculous that we intervene in one regime but not all the others across Africa and the Middle East.

I'm definitely all for isolationism right now, I'm pretty angry at the UK government's double standards, cutting budgets etc but then happy to effectively join yet another potentially very costly conflict. Unfortunate for Libyans, but then what about Bahrainis?

 

[alexleighton]

I don't get this attack by the UN,if there is an actual civil war then it wouldn't be an internal affair,I found quite strange that they only attacks that I have heard the last two days is bombings by the French fighters and cruise missiles by the US.

Apart from that,the resolution from the UN is also strange,specially adding that the resolution was quickly accepted,the resolution document is not very "legal" and irregular conditions were point out by the representatives from Germany, Russia and India.

Thus far,I believe that the media has a great deal with this,just like the nuclear crisis in Japan,which is advertised just as the Chernobyl,the problem here is that some governments seem to have some interest over the controlled areas,where main oil rigs are placed,the thing is that the UN and some members become really alarmed by the retake of Benghazi by the Gadafi forces.

From my point of view I see this invasion(yes,is an invasion according to the Geneva convention)as a provocation that might end in an slaughter,like in Iraq,Iran and Afghanistan,therefore no intervention from foreign forces should be executed except for peace talks and political manners.

It is both an invasion and illegal. There has been no agression by Libya on any of the allied countries, just because a band of rebels asks for help doesn't make an invasion okay. It has not been discussed by any of our governments (i.e. congress or parliament) and anyone who thinks this isn't going to escalate into a full blown conflict needs to have a reality check.

For what little it's worth, I think everyone who opposes this needs to write to their representative, and let them know that we are NOT okay with our tax dollars being squandered on another pointless war, especially considering our governments don't have the money to spend in the first place.

 

[Owen.C93]

I don't have a problem with my government going in to bring down a government that is slaughtering its own people for no reason other then they have had enough of their corrupted and oppressive leader.

 

[nk4e]

Listening to RP, I agree with him. This is not our fight, we are still fighting a war and again we do not need to fight another civil war. But I believe we are on stand-by for now.

 

[Vince_Fiero]

R
I 100% agree with him right now though, this is a civil war in Libya and we have no right to intervene.

Although I was defending this point in Egypt, where the army seemed to try to calm down fights between 2 camps, I can not support this in Lybia.

If a dictator uses the army (there to protect the population) against the population, the international forces should react and protect that population.

In your view any genocide is part of a civil war and people should not intervene.

By the way, it does not mean I support the actions that are ongoing.
In my view it seems more and more that the rebels might be using the international forces as their army in the civil war. The international forces should be neutral. I do see that weakening communication and radar equipment of a government that does not respect UN resolutions can be justified.

But it is clear that engaging means defeat since from the Art of War we know:

For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill.

 

[Kinetic]

geneocide is not civil war =/=

 

[Akira AC]

geneocide is not civil war =/=

Good point,specially when genocide hasn't been done.

I don't see any genocide in Libya,since the rebels start to take over military bases,the Libyan army have respond to this according to the situation,and the media is a mess,specially when most of the bombings in the last month have come from allied aircraft bombing in cities like Tripoli and unreported causalities by western media(bombs that fell in urban areas tents to make hundreds of deaths,like the presidential palace and some military installations).

Now,the OTAN is about to make a mainland invasion,which could lead to more deaths as ground troops will defend their own soil,so who will cause more pointless deaths, allies or Gaddafi,while the media makes a huge show to back up their respective governments and rage a pointless war.

 

[Vince_Fiero]

I heard yesterday the rebels complaining that the "Alliance" was not helping them.

I found this correct, the role of this "Alliance" is to protect the population from being attacked by an unreasonable military force. It seems the alliance has taken out logistics from the army and then stopped.

About unreasonable killings: “According to medical sources in Libya, the wounds of victims showed the use of heavy weapons against demonstrators,”

As stated before, intervention means we have all have lost and will lose even more lives.

 

[sumbrownkid]

I heard yesterday the rebels complaining that the "Alliance" was not helping them.

I found this correct, the role of this "Alliance" is to protect the population from being attacked by an unreasonable military force. It seems the alliance has taken out logistics from the army and then stopped.

About unreasonable killings: “According to medical sources in Libya, the wounds of victims showed the use of heavy weapons against demonstrators,”

As stated before, intervention means we have all have lost and will lose even more lives.

But the bleeding must stop somehow and someway. I'm all for Ghaddafi getting a .45 to the head, but I can see that making his supporters ultra pissed and even more anti-west.

 

[Vince_Fiero]

Wissam Tarif, executive director of the human rights group Insan, told CNN from outside Damascus that Syrian security forces fired live ammunition at unarmed protesters.

Seems like the UN should expand the field of action.

 

[Dotini]

Significant new protests are breaking out in Jordan.
http://www.rttnews.com/Content/PoliticalNews.aspx?Id=1582949&SM=1

It seems that there is a generalized uprising against established authority going on all over the Arab world in North Africa and the Middle East. Other nations such as Iran, China and many others are not immune from public restiveness.

It seems to me that there might be increasing global mistrust of authority figures in general. Certainly the global financial melt-down beginning in 2008 has disabused most people from Pollyannish blandishments of perpetual growth and prosperity. Another example might the long trend of generalized public mistrust of media and government pronouncements on various subjects, including wars, deficit spending, taxes and regulation. Where this is all going is an open question.

Some predictions might be increased restriction of freedoms and closer monitoring of public and private communications and movements. Spontaneous outbreaks of rage and violence (including suicide) by frustrated individuals cannot be ruled out.

 

[alexleighton]

Some predictions might be increased restriction of freedoms and closer monitoring of public and private communications and movements. Spontaneous outbreaks of rage and violence (including suicide) by frustrated individuals cannot be ruled out.

I agree that that is the way things are headed, which is ironic since it's those exact reasons that spark protests.

 

[caninehostile]

Put Gadaffi and his Ridicolous Spokesman to sleep. Zzzz permanently.
👍
We contribute 5 fighterplanes. please hit the gadaff

 

[drivehard]

Significant new protests are breaking out in Jordan.
http://www.rttnews.com/Content/PoliticalNews.aspx?Id=1582949&SM=1

It seems that there is a generalized uprising against established authority going on all over the Arab world in North Africa and the Middle East. Other nations such as Iran, China and many others are not immune from public restiveness.

It seems to me that there might be increasing global mistrust of authority figures in general. Certainly the global financial melt-down beginning in 2008 has disabused most people from Pollyannish blandishments of perpetual growth and prosperity. Another example might the long trend of generalized public mistrust of media and government pronouncements on various subjects, including wars, deficit spending, taxes and regulation. Where this is all going is an open question.

Some predictions might be increased restriction of freedoms and closer monitoring of public and private communications and movements. Spontaneous outbreaks of rage and violence (including suicide) by frustrated individuals cannot be ruled out.

Ya...No paradise will be appearing anytime soon.

 

[Vince_Fiero]

As I was fearing, I read today:

Diplomatic efforts to end the conflict have failed to make progress with the rebels adamant that Libya's leader for the past 41 years leave and the government side offering concessions, but insisting Gaddafi stay in power.

Also having the impression that people are bored with the subject.