Assetto Corsa PC Mods General DiscussionPC 

  • Thread starter daan
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IanBowser
👍

I absolutely agree with you on your sentiment here.

I found the new version to slow (for me) much like @ales100i says the times for these cars was around 1.47 in 2013 and I struggle to get low 1.49 pushing hard in good conditions (no SC/TC/ABS) in the original version.

The new versions had me up at around 1.52 and we’re just so hard to push, and we’re consistently 4 or 5 seconds of the pace for me, they just seemed to slipped and slide all the time and seemed to me, to be a caricature of the actual vehicle which is a grip machine.

As @LeGeNd-1 says these were beasts and I find the original version drives much more like its real life counter part (of course in my subjective opinion from just watching videos) than the new version.

However as you say, this is the great thing, we can both choose which version we want to drive as everyone has differing opinions and it’s all subjective really.

The down side is we can’t do hot laps and compare times etc but the great thing is that we have them and can experience them.👍

I might edit the new version and have it install as a different car just for these reasons, then I can compare some hot lap times with you on that version 👍

What’s your times on the current v3 model at Suzuka and track time/conditions etc and I’ll have a pop at it 👍


Edit:
Jumped on this morning to set a lap.

Suzuka (RT)
Nissan - GT-R - R-35 - GT500 - (2013)
1.48.7xx
Click to expand...

Good points and nice time, is that 1.48.7xx from the older version?

Low 1.52 is where I am at with v3 physics 26degrees in June. I can't find anywhere to state the 2013 models actually did any laps under 1.5*. In fact the qualifying time of the 2013 season at Suzuka shows 1'52.157 was the quickest lap that year and that was in the GT-R:

upload_2020-10-11_14-11-54.png
 
IanBowser
👍

I absolutely agree with you on your sentiment here.

I found the new version to slow (for me) much like @ales100i says the times for these cars was around 1.47 in 2013 and I struggle to get low 1.49 pushing hard in good conditions (no SC/TC/ABS) in the original version.

The new versions had me up at around 1.52 and we’re just so hard to push, and we’re consistently 4 or 5 seconds of the pace for me, they just seemed to slipped and slide all the time and seemed to me, to be a caricature of the actual vehicle which is a grip machine.

As @LeGeNd-1 says these were beasts and I find the original version drives much more like its real life counter part (of course in my subjective opinion from just watching videos) than the new version.

However as you say, this is the great thing, we can both choose which version we want to drive as everyone has differing opinions and it’s all subjective really.

The down side is we can’t do hot laps and compare times etc but the great thing is that we have them and can experience them.👍

I might edit the new version and have it install as a different car just for these reasons, then I can compare some hot lap times with you on that version 👍

What’s your times on the current v3 model at Suzuka and track time/conditions etc and I’ll have a pop at it 👍


Edit:
Jumped on this morning to set a lap.

Suzuka (RT)
Nissan - GT-R - R-35 - GT500 - (2013)
1.48.7xx
Click to expand...

So far, I've set a 1:48:850 at the new RT Suzuka with the new version of the Honda HSV GT500 2013. However, I do not find driving this car, in it's current state, even the least bit enjoyable. I get sick of driving it because it feels like it's driving on it's front wheels and that the balance is completely off.

In real life, when I push a car or kart and start maintaining consistent optimal lines and times, I "feel" it, like in my teeth (I know, sounds weird). There are several AC cars (original and mods) that can get close to this feel. In these new GT500 cars, I never feel anything close to that. There's nothing satisfying about driving them, no matter how good the lap time. I feel like I've overcome a bad mod, not mastered a lap with a good mod.
 
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Shokeus
Summary !


- Porsche 944 Cup V1.00 (Big Thanks at Norms for his help) : https://mega.nz/file/0cZiSLRK#VLM-4N2E8lwbUT5cMH4Rt1Zk5cCApcAxsHmO7sGkNIg

- Porsche 961 LM V0.93a : https://mega.nz/file/1dZwXJiC#bhazY9fwVY11BoICz12Tgv_sSrrTbiYULwrto3w4Wgw

- Audi 90 GTO (Specially made to turn with the Porsche 961 LM , original version Velo mod , new physics) : https://mega.nz/file/ZUQQWbIS#4akvQFewBGChdUatrOp-kUlpDnAtbuvZBY2w5-IqM2Q

1602422812-custom-showroom-1602418971.jpg


Enjoy ! Have a good week !
Click to expand...


what do you think to convert the Porsche 924 GTP from Pcars 2/3 ? maybe to drive against AC 80's DTM cars like in PCARS 3 ...
 
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JakubP
Next Three

Best Opel Kadett Coupe in AC (must be minimal improved)
View media item 68857opel_kadett_by_PedroBLR.zip - 43.4 MB

Ferrari F355 Gemballa ...
View media item 68856pb_f355_gemballa.rar - 47.2 MB

Nissan Skyline Super Silhouette another version
View media item 68855pb_skyline_race.rar - 44.5 MB

:cheers:
Click to expand...
Heh, unexpected to see Gemballa having tuned a Ferrari F355 honestly, also that Skyline Super Silhouette of Pedro B ain't got match against my version which is far superior visually :lol:
 
norms
Good points and nice time, is that 1.48.7xx from the older version?

Low 1.52 is where I am at with v3 physics 26degrees in June. I can't find anywhere to state the 2013 models actually did any laps under 1.5*. In fact the qualifying time of the 2013 season at Suzuka shows 1'52.157 was the quickest lap that year and that was in the GT-R:

View attachment 964173
Click to expand...

I’m not sure on the exact times to be fair.

I used @ales100i as a reference for the times (he states the best times for this vehicle at Suzuka are around 1.47/1.48)

I used videos of the cars racing to get an idea of how I expect the car to handle (subjectively) of course.

@ales100i is usually very reliable and accurate with his car data and times (bop and car packs etc) If he’s wrong on the times then it is indeed possible the car may be slightly to fast.

However... then we get to a strange place of clear subjectivity

For example... If the car is to fast is it because air resistance isn’t perfectly modelled in the engine, or that mechanical resistance, rolling resistance etc etc is not all emulated perfectly or... insert any reason here...

I think if the times are wrong many modders then artificially slow the car down by making it unnecessarily slippy / harder to drive just to make the times more realistic...

The problem with this is that now, it may be more accurate in terms of its “time” but it’s Handling may now be inaccurate because of this (possibly of course, I’m not saying that IS the case).

The AC engine is non perfect physics engine that has not and does not compensate/emulate and model all real world scenarios perfectly.

When modders focus on “time” as a focal point or reference it does not make it more accurate to real life (of course that’s just my opinion) even if a car is much faster than its real life counter part, it may handle exactly as it’s supposed to in game, but due to it being inside an imperfect physics engine, that does not compensate for all real world scenarios that can affect “time” its “time” may be severely inaccurate in either direction, all while it handles exactly as expected.

Then we get into the variables that affect “time” including the track being different.

A laser scanned track can mean lidar data, it’s also a lidar scan from 2020 not an on track scan from 2013 so any changes in surface or height of a hill / incline etc can all affect “time”

Therefore I believe a modder should mod a car based on how it feels, handles and how it’s expected to drive and behave on track first before anything else such as it’s time.

Especially when you are taking about virtual cars, on a virtual track, in a virtual imperfect physics engine that is not the most accurate representation of realty, in my opinion of course.

I’m in agreement with @LeGeNd-1 that you feel like you work around the Cars issues to get it to work for you, and from all the videos I’ve seen of this cars I just don’t imagine it driving like it does in V3 in reality.

I’d personally take a slightly faster car (that handles and drives more realistically) than a neutered that has been artificially crippled (imo) just to match a more realistic real world “time” in an imperfect virtual physics simulation, that has too many variables that it doesn’t simulate, that will affect the time the car sets.

Even if that laser / lidar scanned 2020 track has a different surface, a slightly higher incline here and there, different air pressure, different wind speed, different curb material, different curb sizes, different fuel and fuel temps, rolling resistance etc etc etc ... they will all affect the overall lap “time” and not are all perfectly modelled in the AC engine.

So in my opinion it’s entirely possible and reasonable for a car to run quicker / slower (virtually) but actually handle correctly / as expected regardless of time, as the virtual world it drives in does not compensate for everything perfectly.

If it’s to fast or too slow we can then look at ways to speed it up and slow it down by making changes to other things...

Is the track to grippy in the simulation?
Is this layout the 100% the same as 2013?
Is it the exact same length as 2013 to the mm ?
Is it the same material as 2013 on kerbs etc?
Is air resistance modelled 100% accurate.
Is rolling resistance modelled 100% accurately.
Are the temps of the track too hot (I run at 26degrees optimum) if I lower this I lower lap time without changing the data of the car like they did.
Are the hills 100% Accurate vs 2013?
Is the mechanical engine slow down (when going up a hill) modelled with 100% accuracy in game vs real world or do we not slow down as much in game as we do in realty.l, thus affecting “time” but not handling.

This will all affect “time” etc again, but not the actual handling of the car.

Maybe it’s not slowing down with 100% real word accuracy as it drives up an incline, maybe the brakes are too good and always at perfect temp in game?

All this this would also affect my lap “time” without affecting the actual data handling of the car etc...

I think modders getting hung up on time and miss the bigger picture.

This is an old, imperfect game engine and it does not model reality with 100% accuracy, so “time” will always be an abomination and a moving target.

But the way the car actually feels, and is expected to feel and drives etc is really the only (close to objective) thing we have.

I remember reading some stuff from Lewis Hamilton’s brother saying that during WMD he kept saying the cars needed to handle better and needed more grip.

But the developers said the cars would be too fast, hence they started adding in more air resistance, rolling resistance, air pressure, tyre temps, tyre pressure, Brake temps etc etc etc and tried to work in ways to slow the car down...

Now I agree they royally messed that up, but the point remains, he was lapping the Clio way faster “virtually” than he did in reality but stated that’s exactly as his real life race Clio handles (in real life racing)

So they looked at things like air pressure, rolling resistance, engine wear, air intakes, heat, temps, weather etc etc even wind resistance etc to slow the cars down like in real life, as these were not initially modelled.

Once they did that the Clio ended up being a really good car in PCars.

I liked their logic but they did indeed fluff that right up for most of the other cars in the game :)
 
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TonySSS
Heh, unexpected to see Gemballa having tuned a Ferrari F355 honestly, also that Skyline Super Silhouette of Pedro B ain't got match against my version which is far superior visually :lol:
Click to expand...

Care to post a link for that Skyline Super Silhouette? I only have some version which got visually no match against the version Jakub just posted. :D
 
LeGeNd-1
Re: Chivas GT500 mod, I'm also in the camp that prefers the older physics (the one I have is from May 2020, dunno about version number). The new one is too "spiky" in terms of physics. It's hard to describe but you're just constantly on edge with grip and the center of gravity feels too high. These cars IRL have the most advanced aero for a tin top race car, super grippy slicks (thanks to tyre war) and performance level faster than even LMP2. The only race cars faster are probably F1/Indy/Super Formula and LMP1. Even on cold tyres it should stick like glue. Anyway, I'm sticking to the older version. The Honda sounds a lot better there too. No way I'm redownloading 1GB three times for a supposedly "definitive" version :lol:

IMO this seems to be a trend with some modders. Endlessly tinkering with physics that they lose sight of the original vision and often ends up making it worse. We've seen it with ASR, and also some of Dan Busca's mods. Maybe peer pressure is contributing as well. That poll showing whether people prefer the older "easier" physics vs newer "realistic" physics. Well duh, if it's worded like that of course people will chose new :lol: I bet 90% of voters haven't actually driven either. My thumb rule is, if I've drive V1.0 and there's nothing obvious wrong with it, I don't downloaded any "updates" (more like "downdates" lol).
Click to expand...

Here's the thing though, The 2013 regs arent the same as current regs. Cars back then were not as fast as the FIA class one regs. They were about 3-4 seconds a lap slower than when 2014 regulation changes came. They had a lot less downforce than Class 1 silhouettes, and were still based on production chassis despite heavy changes. We cant say how tey drive, but they certainly arent as fast as you think they are. They are like 4 seconds slower than LMP2, have more aero restrictions, and (I think) heavier than current FIA Class 1 reg.

I have tried all the handling updates even before the definitive pack, and by far the current one is where I am having fun the most. I cant say anything about realism. But as Ive said, I dont care about realism, but if thats where I enjoy, thats where I stick.
 
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IanBowser
I’m not sure on the exact times to be fair.

I used @ales100i as a reference for the times (he states the best times for this vehicle at Suzuka are around 1.47/1.48)

I used videos of the cars racing to get an idea of how I expect the car to handle (subjectively) of course.

@ales100i is usually very reliable and accurate with his car data and times (bop and car packs etc) If he’s wrong on the times then it is indeed possible the car may be slightly to fast.

However... then we get to a strange place of clear subjectivity

For example... If the car is to fast is it because air resistance isn’t perfectly modelled in the engine, or that mechanical resistance, rolling resistance etc etc is not all emulated perfectly or... insert any reason here...

I think if the times are wrong many modders then artificially slow the car down by making it unnecessarily slippy / harder to drive just to make the times more realistic...

The problem with this is that now, it may be more accurate in terms of its “time” but it’s Handling may now be inaccurate because of this (possibly of course, I’m not saying that IS the case).

The AC engine is non perfect physics engine that has not and does not compensate/emulate and model all real world scenarios perfectly.

When modders focus on “time” as a focal point or reference it does not make it more accurate to real life (of course that’s just my opinion) even if a car is much faster than its real life counter part, it may handle exactly as it’s supposed to in game, but due to it being inside an imperfect physics engine, that does not compensate for all real world scenarios that can affect “time” its “time” may be severely inaccurate in either direction, all while it handles exactly as expected.

Then we get into the variables that affect “time” including the track being different.

A laser scanned track can mean lidar data, it’s also a lidar scan from 2020 not an on track scan from 2013 so any changes in surface or height of a hill / incline etc can all affect “time”

Therefore I believe a modder should mod a car based on how it feels, handles and how it’s expected to drive and behave on track first before anything else such as it’s time.

Especially when you are taking about virtual cars, on a virtual track, in a virtual imperfect physics engine that is not the most accurate representation of realty, in my opinion of course.

I’m in agreement with @LeGeNd-1 that you feel like you work around the Cars issues to get it to work for you, and from all the videos I’ve seen of this cars I just don’t imagine it driving like it does in V3 in reality.

I’d personally take a slightly faster car (that handles and drives more realistically) than a neutered that has been artificially crippled (imo) just to match a more realistic real world “time” in an imperfect virtual physics simulation, that has too many variables that it doesn’t simulate, that will affect the time the car sets.

Even if that laser / lidar scanned 2020 track has a different surface, a slightly higher incline here and there, different air pressure, different wind speed, different curb material, different curb sizes, different fuel and fuel temps, rolling resistance etc etc etc ... they will all affect the overall lap “time” and not are all perfectly modelled in the AC engine.

So in my opinion it’s entirely possible and reasonable for a car to run quicker / slower (virtually) but actually handle correctly / as expected regardless of time, as the virtual world it drives in does not compensate for everything perfectly.

If it’s to fast or too slow we can then look at ways to speed it up and slow it down by making changes to other things...

Is the track to grippy?
Is this layout the same as 2013?
Is it the exact same length as 2013?
Is it the same material as 2013 on kerbs etc?
Is air resistance modelled 100% accurate.
Is rolling resistance modelled 100% accurately.
Are the temps of the rack too hot (I run at 26degrees optimum) if I power this I lower laptine without changing the data.acd of the car like they did.
Are the hills 100% Accurate vs 2013?
Is the alway an engine slows down when going up a hill modelled 100% accurately in game vs real world or do we not slow down as much in game as we do in realty.

This will affect “time” etc again, but not the actual handling of the car. Maybe it’s not slowing down with 100% real word accuracy as it drives up an incline?

This would also Reduce my lap time time without affecting handling etc...

I think midders getting hung up on time miss the bigger picture.

This is an old, imperfect engine and not reality, so time will always be an abomination and a moving target.

But the way the car actually feels, and is expected to feel and drives etc is really the only (close to objective) thing we have.

I remember reading some stuff from Lewis Hamilton’s brother saying that during WMD he kept saying the cars needed to handle better and needed more grip.

But the developers said the cars would be too fast, hence they stated adding in more air resistance, rolling resistance and tried to work in ways to slow the car down...

Now I agree they royally messed that up, but the pint remains, he was lapping the Clio way faster virtually than he did in reality but stated that’s exactly as his real life race clip handles in real life racing, so they looked at things like air pressure, rolling resistance, engine wear, air intakes, wind etc to slow the car down like in real life.

I liked their logic but they did indeed fluff that right up :)
Click to expand...

Appreciate the detailed post 👍

You are bang on in stating we can't expect to compare to real life for all the reasons stated and probably more. And yeah it basically comes down to feel at the end of the day. I've done a few more laps with the new physics again and to me they just feel right (no aids apart from ABS set to factory so not sure if that is on). I'm no where near as quick as some guys on here and maybe that's why I think they feel good I'm not sure to be honest. The old physics just seem to be too forgiving for me but there are so many variables like you have stated. Maybe @Masscot had a point when he said that there may be other variables at play between our set ups causing so many widely varying opinions? :confused:

Either way, it's all good, the choice and availability just adds to our enjoyment when it comes down to it!
 
Here is my hot take on Chivas' new mod, aka the most polarizing mod we have today.

You either Love the handling or Hate it.
Both sides claim to have real world experience and compare it as proof
No one has really driven a GT500 car, especially from those regulations

So in conclusion:
If it fits your driving style, You love it
If it doesnt, you hate it

Realistic? Maybe? Maybe not? who knows? All that matters is if its enjoyable to drive. and for the majority of Chivas' audience, it is. And they stick to their majority vote
 
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Some shots from yesteday, first time in the sim! I edited the model and also modeled some simple stuff so it's more detailed and I'm quite satisfied with the result 👍 I'm not sure about the tyres as the official data says they were sold originally with 205/50. On screens you can see 215/45 and they seem quite big to me, but maybe I'm just too used to low profile tyres. Still quite a long road ahead of me, but step by step we're getting there ;)

Screenshot_wlf_lancia_delta_hf_evo_ddm_gts_tsukuba_10-9-120-17-53-31.png

Screenshot_wlf_lancia_delta_hf_evo_ddm_gts_tsukuba_10-9-120-17-54-24.png
 
JakubP
Next Three

Best Opel Kadett Coupe in AC (must be minimal improved)
View media item 68857opel_kadett_by_PedroBLR.zip - 43.4 MB

Ferrari F355 Gemballa ...
View media item 68856pb_f355_gemballa.rar - 47.2 MB

Nissan Skyline Super Silhouette another version
View media item 68855pb_skyline_race.rar - 44.5 MB

:cheers:
Click to expand...
l
JakubP
Next Three

Best Opel Kadett Coupe in AC (must be minimal improved)
View media item 68857opel_kadett_by_PedroBLR.zip - 43.4 MB

Ferrari F355 Gemballa ...
View media item 68856pb_f355_gemballa.rar - 47.2 MB

Nissan Skyline Super Silhouette another version
View media item 68855pb_skyline_race.rar - 44.5 MB

:cheers:
Click to expand...


love your opel! only probloem: in showroom looks OK, but in race the body is far too high above the wheels. looks like a rally car with high suspension. can you fix this? im on CSP 0.1.66
 
norms
Appreciate the detailed post 👍

You are bang on in stating we can't expect to compare to real life for all the reasons stated and probably more. And yeah it basically comes down to feel at the end of the day. I've done a few more laps with the new physics again and to me they just feel right (no aids apart from ABS set to factory so not sure if that is on). I'm no where near as quick as some guys on here and maybe that's why I think they feel good I'm not sure to be honest. The old physics just seem to be too forgiving for me but there are so many variables like you have stated. Maybe @Masscot had a point when he said that there may be other variables at play between our set ups causing so many widely varying opinions? :confused:

Either way, it's all good, the choice and availability just adds to our enjoyment when it comes down to it!
Click to expand...

Absolutely, I agree with you in every respect.

Its great that we can all discuss and delve into the the fascinating disparity of our experiences with some vehicles (these in particular) and in contrast, how similar they can be are with others.

For sure @Masscot may have a point that set up differences could be involved, we can’t rule that out, also that some people really like low degrees of rotation.

I remember watching a GamerMuscle video once where he said he sets his degrees of rotation at 360 (or there about) for the radical I think?

I was baffled... as for me it meant the car was almost at almost full lock with only around a few degrees turn of my wheel, this just felt so wrong and unnatural and unrealistic.

However, he loves it and is an advocate for low degrees of rotation.

I like a lot of turn in my wheel as I feel more in control and I feel I can make micro adjustments etc. with more accuracy, so I avoided setting my cars up with low DOR etc.

So I guess unless we set up a server and do a track day with these beasts, we will never truly know why their is such a disparity with them vs something like the NSX 1.6 that we (pretty much) all agree upon being a spectacular car to drive.

Thanks Norms:tup:
 
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JustusKuro
Here is my hot take on Chivas' new mod, aka the most polarizing mod we have today.

You either Love the handling or Hate it.
Both sides claim to have real world experience and compare it as proof
No one has really driven a GT500 car, especially from those regulations

So in conclusion:
If it fits your driving style, You love it
If it doesnt, you hate it

Realistic? Maybe? Maybe not? who knows? All that matters is if its enjoyable to drive. and for the majority of Chivas' audience, it is. And they stick to their majority vote
Click to expand...
^ This!

I have no problem with the driving feel with Definitive Version 3, but the drivers' hands are now off the wheel after Chivas changed the driver model to appease VR users. So I'm sticking to Definitive Version 2.1, which feels good to me because I'm none the wiser (i.e. I'm not a pro GT500 driver).
 
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