Attack on magazine Charlie Hebdo in Paris.

[Mr. S]

Yesterday the action came my way! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...kov-takes-two-people-captive-post-office.html

This is around 300m from my house, no terrorists involved but still...finally my grandmas fear of being in the middle of all of this is slightly justified.

 

[Scaff]

Deal. Name the statement and I will retract it, now and forever.

Here you go....

So, blowback from the war in the Middle East has now spread across Western Europe in a major way.

....its hasn't, not in a major way. Its actually so far been (in the larger context of total Europe terrorism) still very low. Our worst attack to date was still by a right-wing Christian anti-Multiculturist.

PS, As a North American who has never been to Europe, I must rely on others to know the context of what is going on there. Help me.

I've already supplied links to a number of sources in this and other threads that supply context to this, have a read of a few of them.

 

[Dotini]

Belgian authorities have apparently raided 10 locations in 4 cities, according to confused reports on CNN.

These are against people recently returning from Syria thought to be planning terrorist attacks.

Video was repeatedly shown of a burning apartment building and many shots fired. Two suspects dead and one captured.

So, blowback from the war in the Middle East has now spread across Western Europe in a major way.

I expect similar operations in Spain, France, Germany and the UK.

Despite its serious context, this statement is obviously greatly exaggerated, particularly due to the term "major". I regret it, and repudiate it now and forever.

 

[novcze]

PS, As a North American who has never been to Europe, I must rely on others to know the context of what is going on there. Help me.

Context is that Western Europe have so large numbers of muslims, they can't do nothing but play multi-culti card and try to minimize danger of islam extremism via intelligence agencies.
And in reality, islam IS the biggest threat in Europe, because they operate everywhere, not just in one region like separatist do.

 

[VolkswagenX]

And in reality, islam IS the biggest threat in Europe, because they operate everywhere, not just in one region like separatist do.

Great! I just got over being scared of the DPRK, ebola and Russia... Good to see that the fear of islam is back in My Life to keep me scared. So excited to find out what rights the government can take away from me this time to keep us all safe.

 

[novcze]

Great! I just tot over being scared of the DPRK, ebola and Russia... Good to see that the fear of islam is back in My Life to keep me scared. So excited to find out what rights the government can take away from me this time to keep us all safe.

I was posting in context of previous conversation about terrorism.

 

[Scaff]

Context is that Western Europe have so large numbers of muslims, they can't do nothing but play multi-culti card and try to minimize danger of islam extremism via intelligence agencies.
And in reality, islam IS the biggest threat in Europe, because they operate everywhere, not just in one region like separatist do.

Really. Tell us exactly what percentage of the European population is Muslim.

Then what percentage of European terrorism is carried out by Muslims.

Claims are easy, but they need backing up.

Oh and while separatist attacks have been declining, far left and right attacks have increased and are most certainly not limited to a single region.

 

[Famine]

Context is that Western Europe have so large numbers of muslims, they can't do nothing but play multi-culti card and try to minimize danger of islam extremism via intelligence agencies.

Population, Islamic percentage (Islamic population):
Germany - 80.2m, 1.9% (1.5m)
France - 66.6m, 4.0% (2.6m)
United Kingdom - 63.1m, 2.8% (1.7m)
Italy - 59.4m, 2.6% (1.6m)
Spain - 46.8m, 3.6% (1.7m)
Netherlands - 16.8m, 5.8% (1.0m)
Belgium - 11.2m, 6.0% (0.7m)
Portugal - 10.6m, <0.1% (<0.1m)
Switzerland - 7.9m, 4.9% (0.4m)
Total - 362.6m, 3.1% (11.2m)

So large. Such many. Wow.

 

[novcze]

Hmmm well, you can't just remove 12m of people, so if you don't want to repeat German atrocities from 70 years ago you will play multi-culti card as you don't have other choice.

 

[Scaff]

Hmmm well, you can't just remove 12m of people, so if you don't want to repeat German atrocities from 70 years ago you will play multi-culti card as you don't have other choice.

So you're unable to back up either of your statements.

It does however raise the rather worrying factor of why you believe we need to even consider removing them?

A bit of clarification on what you think multiculturalism is as well would be good, because its not a card you play.

 

[Famine]

Hmmm well, you can't just remove 12m of people

Why would you want to?

so if you don't want to repeat German atrocities from 70 years ago you will play multi-culti card as you don't have other choice.

What's "multi-culti card"?

Just for reference, if every Muslim was a fundamentalist extremist who killed as many individuals as the CharlieHebdo shooters before being killed themselves, Western Europe would still have a non-Muslim population of 284.2 million (excluding Luxembourg, San Marino and Andorra, as before).

 

[Touring Mars]

if every Muslim was a fundamentalist extremist who killed as many individuals as the CharlieHebdo shooters before being killed themselves, Western Europe would still have a non-Muslim population of 284.2 million (excluding Luxembourg, San Marino and Andorra, as before).

Oh, well that's OK then 👍

 

[Famine]

Oh, well that's OK then 👍

On the other hand, if every Christian was a fundamentalist extremist who killed as many individuals as Anders Breivik, you'd have to ship the entire population of the planet in just to keep the bodycount up, and then two more planets just like ours.

Good job that not every Christian - or Muslim - is a fundamentalist extremist, really.

Extreme edit: On The Last Leg, Adam Hills mentioned that the estimated membership of Al Qa'ida, IS and Boko Haram (they killed between 200 and 2000 people for no reason at all this week, by the way) combined constitute roughly 0.003% of all Muslims - it seems a fair enough figure, with about 50,000 members at median estimates from 1.6 billion Muslims.

By proportion, this means that you're five times more likely to meet a native of Ulster who is a member of the Real IRA - with 250 remaining members from an Ulster population of 1.8 million - as you are to encounter a Muslim who's a member of Al Qa'ida, IS or Boko Haram...

Oddly, I don't see any hysteria about Catholic paramilitaries right now.

 

[Dotini]

Here's some interesting commentary from one whom I take to be progressive liberal Christian.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/11/o...e-the-crucible-of-europe.html?ref=todayspaper

 

[Milouse]

If someone think that all this crazyness has to do with a specific established religion, and not with general human natural weakness, a close look at the Jonestown case is needed. Actually, here's a documentary i would recommend to anyone who haven't good knowledge of this massacre yet:

(84 mn long, english, quality is bad but it doesn't matter much as original footages were too)

 

[Johnnypenso]

https://www.europol.europa.eu/conte...ion-terrorism-situation-and-trend-report-2014

This link does not work for me. I googled and various other links didn't work either. I did find some news articles however with bits and pieces of data and this one seemed the most complete. I was curious to see how prevelant this left wing and right wing terrorism was as I didn't even realize it was a "thing" and you did mention it several times including:

Oh and while separatist attacks have been declining, far left and right attacks have increased and are most certainly not limited to a single region.

I was quite surprised at how much terrorism is committed by the left wing but curiously in 2013 there is zero right wing terrorism:

In fact, out of the over 2500 attacks failed, foiled or completed only 9 were right wing (0.36%) and only 3 in the past 3 years. Curiously left wing attacks in the included outnumber the right wingers by about 30:1. In 6 out of the 8 years, there is either 0 or 1 right wing attack. Perhaps there are some other statistics that show right wing terrorism is on the increase or perhaps because there are so many zero years, a year with 1 or 2 attacks is considered a statistically significant increase?

 

[novcze]

So you're unable to back up either of your statements.

I don't have to, you already did it for me.

It does however raise the rather worrying factor of why you believe we need to even consider removing them?

It's not worrying, one of the logical things you can do to remove possibility of islam terrorism is to remove all of muslims, because you can't tell if or when each individual will radicalize.
I'm not saying we should do it, I'm basically atheist/humanist interested in fate of human race, but if I see ideology like islam which is behind in development some few hunderd years, I see it as danger to human race, but then again, stupid people will flock around another stupid ideology, so it's lose lose situation. Our best hope is to educate them which is exactly what they fear, e.g. boko haram.

A bit of clarification on what you think multiculturalism is as well would be good, because its not a card you play.

Tell us, if you look at native arab islamic states, do you think it's culture worth integrating? And it's even possible? They are showing little to no respect to other cultures, you either follow their rules or you are in trouble. And they are showing same level of intolerance in Europe, or not?
And I'm not going to start about how they treat the women.

 

[Scaff]

This link does not work for me. I googled and various other links didn't work either. I did find some news articles however with bits and pieces of data and this one seemed the most complete. I was curious to see how prevelant this left wing and right wing terrorism was as I didn't even realize it was a "thing" and you did mention it several times including:



I was quite surprised at how much terrorism is committed by the left wing but curiously in 2013 there is zero right wing terrorism:
View attachment 293035


In fact, out of the over 2500 attacks failed, foiled or completed only 9 were right wing (0.36%) and only 3 in the past 3 years. Curiously left wing attacks in the included outnumber the right wingers by about 30:1. In 6 out of the 8 years, there is either 0 or 1 right wing attack. Perhaps there are some other statistics that show right wing terrorism is on the increase or perhaps because there are so many zero years, a year with 1 or 2 attacks is considered a statistically significant increase?

The link works perfectly well for me on a number of computers, here is a link to the 2013 reportr in .pdf form. Give that a go.

https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/publications/europol_tsat14_web_1.pdf

This also provides a number of links (for various years) and an editorial based upon it:
http://thinkprogress.org/world/2015/01/08/3609796/islamist-terrorism-europe/

As does this
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...-s-not-even-close.html?source=TDB&via=FB_Page

As for the reasons why zero were reported directly by EU governments, well that would be a question to ask the governments themselves. Fortunately EUROPOL don't just simply trust the government provided figures, they look at actual incidents. As the report clearly goes into detail on.

I don't have to, you already did it for me.

Explain

It's not worrying, one of the logical things you can do to remove possibility of islam terrorism is to remove all of muslims, because you can't tell if or when each individual will radicalize.
I'm not saying we should do it, I'm basically atheist/humanist interested in fate of human race, but if I see ideology like islam which is behind in development some few hunderd years, I see it as danger to human race, but then again, stupid people will flock around another stupid ideology, so it's lose lose situation. Our best hope is to educate them which is exactly what they fear, e.g. boko haram.

Now aside from your views being outrside of the mainstream in terms of humanist, you are once again simply grouping over a billion people into a single group and claiming they are all the same.

You can't talk of logical arguments when you start with such an illogical an flawed stating point.

Tell us, if you look at native arab islamic states, do you think it's culture worth integrating? And it's even possible? They are showing little to no respect to other cultures, you either follow their rules or you are in trouble. And they are showing same level of intolerance in Europe, or not?
And I'm not going to start about how they treat the women.

I don't even have to look.

I've spent decades traveling in, working in and living in and around Arab culture, I'm going back next week. In terms of food, art, music and a lot more it most certainly has culture worth retaining and integrating.

What that however has to do with Islam I'm not quite sure as not all Arabs are Muslims and most certainly not all Muslims are Arabs (not even close). as such its more than a bit off topic.

Oh and no they are not showing the same level of intolerance in Europe at all, far from it. A small minority of Muslims in Europe are actively intolerant of other cultures, funnily enough just as a small minority of Europeans are intolerant of other cultures.

 

[alonsof1fan91]

And in reality, islam IS the biggest threat in Europe, because they operate everywhere, not just in one region like separatist do.

Living near the czech and polish borders in germany, my biggest fear is to get run over by a eastern european truck drivers.
My fears are justified, I have yet to encounter a truck driven by a insane muslim extremist overtaking another truck in the middle of a corner on a one lane country road. Its terrifying. I barely get sleep at night.

 

[kennylmao]

Now aside from your views being outrside of the mainstream in terms of humanist, you are once again simply grouping over a billion people into a single group and claiming they are all the same.

You can't talk of logical arguments when you start with such an illogical an flawed stating point.

Radical secular humanist, would you call it? Anyway, I share his views. I would group people who don't believe in the concepts of humanism (human rights, etc.) the same was they group unbelievers (and subsequently discriminate upon us). I'm speaking of most religions and putting an emphasis on Islam because right now it's the one that's the most anti-humanist. You know, death to apostates, state controlled religion, and all that jazz.

Oh and you can't group over a billion people (ZOMG NINE ZEROS ) because it's what? Disgusting? Racist? Ben Affleck is that you? I'll group over a billion people because they follow a specific religion based on a specific book. In that billion or so I can further group them into casual, moderate and hardcore. Kazakhstan being one of the most casual and Saudi Arabia being the hardcore.

 

[novcze]

Living near the czech and polish borders in germany, my biggest fear is to get run over by a eastern european truck drivers.
My fears are justified, I have yet to encounter a truck driven by a insane muslim extremist overtaking another truck in the middle of a corner on a one lane country road. Its terrifying. I barely get sleep at night.

I fear crazy drivers in general, not just truck drivers and not just from eastern europe.

 

[Scaff]

Radical secular humanist, would you call it? Anyway, I share his views. I would group people who don't believe in the concepts of humanism (human rights, etc.) the same was they group unbelievers (and subsequently discriminate upon us). I'm speaking of most religions and putting an emphasis on Islam because right now it's the one that's the most anti-humanist. You know, death to apostates, state controlled religion, and all that jazz.

Oh and you can't group over a billion people (ZOMG NINE ZEROS ) because it's what? Disgusting? Racist? Ben Affleck is that you? I'll group over a billion people because they follow a specific religion based on a specific book. In that billion or so I can further group them into casual, moderate and hardcore. Kazakhstan being one of the most casual and Saudi Arabia being the hardcore.

You can't group them into one set of beliefs because they don't belong to one group.

Do you honestly believe that every single Muslim believes in exactly the same interpretation of the Koran and other texts?

Simply put they don't. The attitudes towards how you interpret the texts, how you interact with other faiths, how you use the texts as the basis of law (or not) vary significantly from Islamic sect to Islamic set, just as they do from Christian sect to Christian sect.

As such this has nothing to do wit cheap 'Ben Affleck' jibes (which I suggest you refrain from) and is simply based on facts. Not all Muslims believe in the same thing, as such grouping them into a whole for that purpose is innacurate.

 

[novcze]

Explain

Well, you provided the numbers and it's obvious that we can do nothing about it but:

... play multi-culti card and try to minimize danger of islam extremism via intelligence agencies.

Now aside from your views being outrside of the mainstream in terms of humanist ....

Humanism is very broad term and I don't claim I share all views of mainstream humanism (whatever it is)

... you are once again simply grouping over a billion people into a single group and claiming they are all the same.

We are talking about European muslims, so not a billion people. And all I'm saying is that:

... you can't tell if or when each individual will radicalize.

You can't talk of logical arguments when you start with such an illogical an flawed stating point.

What is illogical about removing possible source of danger to eliminate the danger.

I've spent decades traveling in, working in and living in and around Arab culture, I'm going back next week. In terms of food, art, music and a lot more it most certainly has culture worth retaining and integrating.

What that however has to do with Islam I'm not quite sure as not all Arabs are Muslims and most certainly not all Muslims are Arabs (not even close). as such its more than a bit off topic.

Oh and no they are not showing the same level of intolerance in Europe at all, far from it. A small minority of Muslims in Europe are actively intolerant of other cultures, funnily enough just as a small minority of Europeans are intolerant of other cultures.

Do you talk about arab country with islam as the state religion? Because this have so much to do with the topic of islam.
I know someone (I don't want to be specific) who works in arab country with islam as the state religion and all I hear is that they are dumb bigoted horny pigs and of course if you are women you have to dress like muslim women do, no tolerance there.



No one and nothing is free from criticism, people need to understand this, even muslims. Nobody is forcing them to look at caricature, faith is their private thing.



And if we go back to the topic of this thread, I wanted to buy Charlie Hebdo magazine last week only to find out that is sold out in Czech Republic (news is in English).

 

[Johnnypenso]

The link works perfectly well for me on a number of computers, here is a link to the 2013 reportr in .pdf form. Give that a go.

https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/default/files/publications/europol_tsat14_web_1.pdf

This also provides a number of links (for various years) and an editorial based upon it:
http://thinkprogress.org/world/2015/01/08/3609796/islamist-terrorism-europe/

As does this
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...-s-not-even-close.html?source=TDB&via=FB_Page

As for the reasons why zero were reported directly by EU governments, well that would be a question to ask the governments themselves. Fortunately EUROPOL don't just simply trust the government provided figures, they look at actual incidents. As the report clearly goes into detail on.


Explain



Now aside from your views being outrside of the mainstream in terms of humanist, you are once again simply grouping over a billion people into a single group and claiming they are all the same.

You can't talk of logical arguments when you start with such an illogical an flawed stating point.




I don't even have to look.

I've spent decades traveling in, working in and living in and around Arab culture, I'm going back next week. In terms of food, art, music and a lot more it most certainly has culture worth retaining and integrating.

What that however has to do with Islam I'm not quite sure as not all Arabs are Muslims and most certainly not all Muslims are Arabs (not even close). as such its more than a bit off topic.

Oh and no they are not showing the same level of intolerance in Europe at all, far from it. A small minority of Muslims in Europe are actively intolerant of other cultures, funnily enough just as a small minority of Europeans are intolerant of other cultures.

The first link comes up as this to me:

This second and third link you provided, seem to reference the same totals that I quoted you earlier. So it appears from your links that there is nothing wrong with the right-wing terror numbers I originally provided and that terrorism incidents by right wing is almost non-existant. It appears you were incorrect in saying that right wing terrorism is on the increase and it's a bit misleading to even mention it, given how miniscule the number of incidents there are in relation to left wing terrorism in the EU.

 

[homeforsummer]

It's not worrying, one of the logical things you can do to remove possibility of islam terrorism is to remove all of muslims, because you can't tell if or when each individual will radicalize.

"It's not worrying, one of the logical things you can do to remove possibility of being run over is to remove all cars, because you can't tell if or when a driver will run you over."

"It's not worrying, one of the logical things you can do to remove possibility of being murdered is to never speak to or see another human being, because you can't tell if or when you might be murdered."

"It's not worrying, one of the logical things you can do to remove possibility of choking on your food is to never eat, because you can't tell if or when you might choke on your food."

"It's not worrying, one of the logical things you can do to remove possibility of dying is to never be born, because you can't tell if or when you might die."

Stop me when I hit something roughly as silly...

 

[Dotini]

The first link comes up as this to me:
View attachment 293221

This second and third link you provided, seem to reference the same totals that I quoted you earlier. So it appears from your links that there is nothing wrong with the right-wing terror numbers I originally provided and that terrorism incidents by right wing is almost non-existant. It appears you were incorrect in saying that right wing terrorism is on the increase and it's a bit misleading to even mention it, given how miniscule the number of incidents there are in relation to left wing terrorism in the EU.

Perhaps separatist terror is the same thing as right wing terror?

 

[InSight]

Great! I just got over being scared of the DPRK, ebola and Russia... Good to see that the fear of islam is back in My Life to keep me scared. So excited to find out what rights the government can take away from me this time to keep us all safe.

Russia (Putin) is not the enemy. The people and their propaganda which tells you this, are:

http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/07/15/brics-summit-bank-idINKBN0FK08620140715

Juice* will take on ANYONE who dares to oppose their will and plans:

http://www.voltairenet.org/article186004.html

http://www.rferl.org/content/article/1095057.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/iran-ends-oil-transactions-in-us-dollars/

http://www.thenewamerican.com/econo...-gold-money-plan-would-have-devastated-dollar

http://www.activistpost.com/2012/09/state-owned-central-banks-are-real.html


*"small, rootless, international clique that is turning the people against each other, that does not want them to have peace..." - I better not quote the author here...

*"a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence--on infiltration instead of invasion, on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice, on guerrillas by night instead of armies by day.
It is a system which has conscripted vast human and material resources into the building of a tightly knit, highly efficient machine that combines military, diplomatic, intelligence, economic, scientific and political operations." - JFK


Feel free to remove if offensive, but I had to post it.

 

[Famine]

No idea what "Juice" is, but it sounds very tinfoil.

Well, you provided the numbers and it's obvious that we can do nothing about it but:

Actually I provided the numbers which showed just how small the Muslim population of Europe is and how little effect they'd have if each and every one of them killed as many people as the two who attacked the CharlieHebdo offices on the population of Europe, disproving your point about how many of them there are and the danger they pose.

I also asked what the "multi-culti card" was. You didn't answer.

 

[Milouse]

Referring to initial attack at CH...

They may have well have put up posters for the Front Nationale. What a tragedy. 👎

...a comparison of the same poll made before and early after the attack shows that political lines didn't move at all in France.

Source (french)

 

[Johnnypenso]

Perhaps separatist terror is the same thing as right wing terror?

The numbers I saw seem to separate out the separatists, left and right wingers. I would assume that if the separatists were clearly left or right wing they'd group them as so. My only objection to the data is Scaff mentioning more than once about a rise in left and right wing terrorism, when the right wing terrorism, according to his own data, in terms of the numbers of incidents, is so close to zero every year it's almost non-existant. I couldn't get to the full report so perhaps there are numbers that I can't see that tell a different story, but the links to articles I did see had all the same data that I quoted.