"Blue Devil" News: Test Details Roll In

[YSSMAN]

So let me get this straight: Its bad to shoot for the Carrera GT, its bad to shoot for the 599... So what exactly is the best thing for the 'Blue Devil' to shoot for? Quite frankly, Team Corvette is only benchmarking the 599 because of its similar size to the Z06 and the similar high-performance goals they have with the coming super-Vette. Generally speaking, I highly doubt GM actually wants to shoot the Corvette head-to-head with the Ferrari, as that is generally a job for Cadillac... But, if they can prove that their $100K Corvette can hold up against the $600K Ferrari, thats just something to brag about.

...Its kinda like how Hyundai is comparing all of their vehicles in the US to various high-end models. Crossovers like the Sante Fe are being compared to the LR3 (Disco), the Sonata to the 525i, and the Azera to the LS460. Hyundai knows damn-well their cars can't compete on a level ground there, but they just want to make people aware that their cars have some striking similarities to these high-end models...

Team Corvette wants to do the same, I presume, with the 599. Get the chassis working like the Ferrari, get the engine pumping out the same amount of power, and hopefully you can have a $100K Corvette that will perform the same as a car that costs six-times as much...

 

[Dave A]

I don't care about them using the performance numbers as a target, it's whole let's put it on a track against this car. The photographs of the two cars together was probably setup. As I said, comparing it to these cars in the real world is frankly riduclous, and when we were talking about the SLR most people said so too. The 599 is in the same camp as the SLR. As for the price thing, it's nothing to brag about at all, there's cars half the price of the Z06 that can keep up with it on a track, the bottom line is as you'll find if you set from the 599 into a Vette, when your playing less your getting less. The Vette is not a tourer, it's a proper sportscar, the 599 is a prestige GT. Granted you can argue that your not getting $500k less, but then your not getting £30k less when you buy a R500 Caterham over a regualar Z06 either. This whole type of marketing is balls, find another sportscar, not a GT and compare it to that beause whatever times the Vette can pull (and this seems to have slipped by you) the two cars are not in the same class. It's like that estate and small hatchback comparison I made earlier. Just because someone may make a hatchback that's as fast as a more expensive estate doesn't eman the two cars are comparable. On paper and on track performance are only a two aspects of owning a car and in many instances the differences between car A and B in thoes areas will not be the defining factor.

 

[McLaren]

So let me get this straight: Its bad to shoot for the Carrera GT, its bad to shoot for the 599... So what exactly is the best thing for the 'Blue Devil' to shoot for? Quite frankly, Team Corvette is only benchmarking the 599 because of its similar size to the Z06 and the similar high-performance goals they have with the coming super-Vette. Generally speaking, I highly doubt GM actually wants to shoot the Corvette head-to-head with the Ferrari, as that is generally a job for Cadillac... But, if they can prove that their $100K Corvette can hold up against the $600K Ferrari, thats just something to brag about.

Was that directed at me?

Team Corvette wants to do the same, I presume, with the 599. Get the chassis working like the Ferrari, get the engine pumping out the same amount of power, and hopefully you can have a $100K Corvette that will perform the same as a car that costs six-times as much...

Without the nice interior of the Ferrari.


J/k, YSSMAN.

 

[TopHat]

Hmmm...... Ferrari beater? I can't wait for Car & Driver to eat this up....


That'll be the day I yell at the top at my lungs on top of the Empire State Building " SCREW YOU STUCK UP FERRARI OWNERS"




j/k.

 

[YSSMAN]

Dave, I understand your position, but I think you're missing the point... They aren't in any way trying to position the car against the Ferrari 599. I would be under the assumption that they are benchmarking the car's performance on the road and on the track, but by no means do they want a Chevrolet going up against a Ferrari. Sure, I think they will inevitably be compared at some point by some American magazine... But certainly no one is going to cross-shop the vehicles because, as you said, they are radically different... But still, I'd say they are similar.

There isn't any need to worry about it. A Ferrari is a Ferrari is a Ferrari, and it will always beat a Chevrolet on brand-name alone. I just don't see the problem with Chevrolet shooting for the stars here...

---

...And no, McLaren, that wasn't directed at you. It was a general overview of feelings that had been expressed throughout the thread. There was quite a scuffle after Lutz said they wanted to go after the Carrera GT, then someone brought up the SLR, and then it only got worse...

 

[Joey D]

Pretty bold statement given the 600bhp Vipers aren't technically out on the market nor have they done any testing in magazines besides previews.

That's wrong, I see '08 Vipers without M plates on them driving all over the place. I saw one this past week while coming out of school, that is unless someone is putting the '08 hoods on older Vipers.

With the numbers I'm going on what Dodge was touting at the NAIAS, they were telling people that the Viper would hit 60 in 3.9 seconds...the same as the Z06 if I remember correctly. That seems lame for something with 90 more horsepower. But then again the Viper is the heavier car at 3,435 lbs ('06 Coupe) while the Z06 weighs in at 3,132 lbs ('07). Not a huge difference but every pound counts.

Also if you are looking for an American sports car why would you pay $20,000 extra for a Viper when you can get a car with similar performance, build quality, and American name plate for less? I can understand why in the past you would have bought a Viper despite it being more expensive...it was the faster car (top speed only, 0-60 was even). But since we aren't talking about price I'll just leave it at that.

Daimler Proving Grounds:
Z06 - 1:15.4
SRT-10 - 1:16.7

I bet I could run a fast time around the proving grounds track using just about anything, it's the least challenging track I have ever seen in my entire life. And yes I know, it's right across the street from my university and I see it every single day. It's all hugely banked curves.

From Google Earth, if you want to look yourself it's in Auburn Hills, Michigan on Squirrel Rd.

I think Joey needs to rethink his little statement. If the 500Bhp Viper can continously run against the current Z06, I'm pretty sure the 600Bhp Viper has zero problems.

Added weight makes all the difference in the world. The V-10 is the stupidest thing in the Viper...you don't need 8.4L to make 600hp. Hell the Z06 doesn't need 7.0L for 505hp (although the engine is more of a marketing scheme then anything else, old Vettes had 427's in them). I don't know what Dodge was thinking, they could have easily used a hopped up 6.1L Hemi for the new Viper and done 600hp easily, lost some extra weight and actually beaten the Z06 by a lot instead of running even with it.

 

[YSSMAN]

...Just realized something...

That Corvette there with the 599 appears to be that prototype that got the guy fired back in March. You know, this one...

And in other news, remember how people were freaking about the glass hood? It seems like they've been building them that way for a while...

That too came from the March photo set...

...Still, I'm hoping thats just an option. I'd be hoping they just call it Stingray now, and put a big black stripe down the center of the hood like they used to...

 

[Joey D]

I think that hood's probably going to end up being mesh.

 

[McLaren]

That's wrong, I see '08 Vipers without M plates on them driving all over the place. I saw one this past week while coming out of school, that is unless someone is putting the '08 hoods on older Vipers.

You're in Michigan, home of Dodge and everyone else. But according to Dodge, their pricing will be released soon which must mean the car is not quite on the market yet since there's no MSRP.

Also if you are looking for an American sports car why would you pay $20,000 extra for a Viper when you can get a car with similar performance, build quality, and American name plate for less? I can understand why in the past you would have bought a Viper despite it being more expensive...it was the faster car (top speed only, 0-60 was even). But since we aren't talking about price I'll just leave it at that

Probably because they want exclusivity since their track times are equal. And it's not $20,000 more. On the '06, it was $10-$12K more. Quite a bit of difference. And since the MSRP on the new Viper hasn't been shown, we can't comment on that. Besides that, we'll also have to see the Blue Devil's MSRP to compare.

I bet I could run a fast time around the proving grounds track using just about anything, it's the least challenging track I have ever seen in my entire life. And yes I know, it's right across the street from my university and I see it every single day. It's all hugely banked curves.

Ok, so what? The point is, the Viper isn't very far behind the Z06.

Sure I don't do any research at all before I post.

You give that impression when you say stupid things like this.

...but the Chrysler cry-baby fanboys hate it because the new 08 Vipers with 600hp still can't outrun a Z06 if the numbers are to be believed from the car magazines. And even if the 08 Viper is faster, it's not faster by much.

Because every magazine has reviewed and tested the new Viper.

 

[Joey D]

You're in Michigan, home of Dodge and everyone else. But according to Dodge, their pricing will be released soon which must mean the car is not quite on the market yet since there's no MSRP.

That doesn't mean anything, if they have a normal plate on them they were more then likely bought at a dealer. If they are M plated that means they are owned by DCX or being used by a magazine.

Probably because they want exclusivity since on their track times are equal. And it's not $20,000 more. On the '06, it was $10-$12K more. Quite a bit of difference. And since the MSRP on the new Viper hasn't been shown, we can't comment on that. Besides that, we'll also have to see the Blue Devil's MSRP to compare.

That's what all Viper people tell me and frankly I think that's a stupid way to buy a vehicle but that's just me.

With the price an '06 Dodge Viper Coupe had an MSRP of $83,145 while the '07 Z06 has one of $69,175, but the invoice price according to cars.com is $61,912 which is probably what I looked at when I first looked up the prices. Ignoring that figure though and just looking at MSRP's you are still saving $13,000 by buying the Z06, which could be used for more factory options since I don't know anyone who buys a basic car.

I'm not comparing the Blue Devil though since it will more then likely be around $100k, but that thing should easily outrun a '08 Viper since it should be more powerful and lighter. We will have to wait and see though, but I still don't think they will be on the same playing field.

Ok, so what? The point is, the Viper isn't very far behind the Z06.

That track isn't demanding of the car what-so-eve and the Viper was 1 second slower. You probably could drive that track more or less WOT for most of your run. Since the Viper has about the same amount of power it should have ran really close to the same time.

You give that impression when you say stupid things like this.

Because every magazine has reviewed and tested the new Viper.

Why bother with the magazine when Dodge is telling people, the is Dodge remember, that it will hit 60 in 3.9 seconds. We all know magazines have skewed results most of the time because everyone of them have different ways of testing. Hell one magazine has the Z06 listed at 0-60 in 3.5 seconds which I just don't see as possible. I'm going to go with the manufacturers times on this one.

Magazines are fine and dandy for reviews, but I rarely trust their performance data.

Dodge wanted to walk all over the new Z06 and the new Viper will not, even with 90 more hp. If anything it will be close.

Also how is anything I said a stupid comment? I said it can't outrun it based on what I've heard from both Dodge and Chevy's camp and I said if the Viper is faster it won't be by much. Maybe .0X seconds quicker to 60 or 3-4mph faster top speed. The Viper is and will always be limited to weight because of the V10

 

[McLaren]

That track isn't demanding of the car what-so-eve and the Viper was 1 second slower. You probably could drive that track more or less WOT for most of your run. Since the Viper has about the same amount of power it should have ran really close to the same time.

Doesn't matter.

On Virgina International, which is more demanding, the Viper and Corvette ran pretty much dead zero. Explain that.

Why bother with the magazine when Dodge is telling people, the is Dodge remember, that it will hit 60 in 3.9 seconds. We all know magazines have skewed results most of the time because everyone of them have different ways of testing. Hell one magazine has the Z06 listed at 0-60 in 3.5 seconds which I just don't see as possible. I'm going to go with the manufacturers times on this one.

Because companies always underrate or overrate their cars. The Shelby gets overrated by its manufacturer. Porsche used to underrate their cars. That's why we have magazines for people outside the companies to verify these claims.

Magazines are fine and dandy for reviews, but I rarely trust their performance data.

I'd prefer to trust their's than amateur owners and idiotic little kids (not aimed at you at all), who use YouTube as their source.

Dodge wanted to walk all over the new Z06 and the new Viper will not, even with 90 more hp. If anything it will be close.

Also how is anything I said a stupid comment? I said it can't outrun it based on what I've heard from both Dodge and Chevy's camp and I said if the Viper is faster it won't be by much. Maybe .0X seconds quicker to 60 or 3-4mph faster top speed. The Viper is and will always be limited to weight because of the V10

Well, we will have to wait and see. Most will probably say the Corvette only won because it has 50 more horses over the Viper's 600. But hey, that's fanboys.

As for weight, yeah, that's true. But for the '06 Vipers and Corvettes, the Viper was still dead close despite the weight.

 

[Joey D]

Doesn't matter.

On Virgina International, which is more demanding, the Viper and Corvette ran pretty much dead zero. Explain that.

Couldn't tell you, I have no idea what the track is like...how would I be able to comment on it? The only track I've really seen and know about on that list is the proving grounds track. The only other track that I really could see as being useful is a 'Ring time since we have a lot to compare it to.

The best I can think of is the tires, I'm not sure on the size or brand used on either car. I know the regular Corvette comes with pretty crappy tires, but with the Z06 I'm not sure. GM has always been cheap with tires.

Because companies always underrate or overrate their cars. The Shelby gets overrated by its manufacturer. Porsche used to underrate their cars. That's why we have magazines for people outside the companies to verify these claims.

You don't think magazines do the exact same thing? Magazines will always skew their testing results in the favor of whoever is throwing ad dollars their way. They aren't going to bad mouth a certain car if a company is giving them a large sum of money.

I'd prefer to trust their's than amateur owners and idiotic little kids (not aimed at you at all), who use YouTube as their source.

I will always trust the manufacturer first, they have those numbers for a reason. And if Dodge is gunning for the Z06 they probably aren't going to under rate their car. I would say based on the weight and power 3.9 second 0-60 is very reasonable since the lighter, less powerful Z06 can do it in the same time.

[quoteAs for weight, yeah, that's true. But for the '06 Vipers and Corvettes, the Viper was still dead close despite the weight.[/QUOTE]

Like I said, I'm guessing a lot of it has to do with tires. One thing I have noticed about Chrysler's is that they tend to have decent tires on them from the factory. I wish GM would learn that Goodyear Eagles aren't good and shouldn't be put on a car.

 

[YSSMAN]

I wish GM would learn that Goodyear Eagles aren't good and shouldn't be put on a car.

I thought Goodyear Eagles were supposed to be the best all-around high performance tires money can buy... That meaning that they perform well on dry AND wet pavement. With the amount of Corvette owners who use them as daily drivers, I'm sure GM would LOVE to have a bunch of replacement complaints after people realized that their Yokohama ADVANS didn't do a damn thing in the cool [northern] California mist...

Sure, they could probably go over to Michelin and get a good set of tires (actually, I'm all for it), but given their obsession with pretty good grip, comfort, and capability, the Eagle F1s work well.

...I just wish Corvettes came without run-flat tires...

 

[niky]

Advans do fine in the cold. Not terrific, but fine... ...and they're still a damn sight better in the dry than Goodyears.

Of course, I'm likely to change my tune after I switch to Falken Azenis RT 615s (if I can find them out here...), I've heard those tires blow everything else into the weeds.

 

[McLaren]

You don't think magazines do the exact same thing? Magazines will always skew their testing results in the favor of whoever is throwing ad dollars their way. They aren't going to bad mouth a certain car if a company is giving them a large sum of money.

You're going to have to show me, where in SportAuto, the winner of the review is determined by the ads, considering that it is also the magazine where we achieve our Nordschliefe times.

 

[Joey D]

I thought Goodyear Eagles were supposed to be the best all-around high performance tires money can buy... That meaning that they perform well on dry AND wet pavement. With the amount of Corvette owners who use them as daily drivers, I'm sure GM would LOVE to have a bunch of replacement complaints after people realized that their Yokohama ADVANS didn't do a damn thing in the cool [northern] California mist...

Sure, they could probably go over to Michelin and get a good set of tires (actually, I'm all for it), but given their obsession with pretty good grip, comfort, and capability, the Eagle F1s work well.

...I just wish Corvettes came without run-flat tires...

Ya that's actually a fair point...I keep forgetting their are people who own one as a daily drive .

And I've never heard of SportAuto magazine, I was more referring to MotoTrend, Car & Driver, and Road & Track.

 

[Dave A]

Sport auto is the primary (though not the only) source for the times listed here.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=74142

 

[Joey D]

Ya I figured that, I just have never heard of it being a magazine or anything. I think we can safely assume though a majority of the tests in big name car magazines have biased results based on whatever reason, be it ad dollars or just the testers allegiance to a certain car.

 

[Dave A]

I think sometimes an element of faveroutism creeps into magazines but I think that's mainly depending on the tester. I think that's often the reason why sometimes American car A trounces European car B in some American mags, but in the European mags it can be the other way round, if you get a nationalistic tester you don't really need to read the review. That said though, I do think reviews are a much better way to work out how a car is than manufacturer claims. Just read a selection of reviews and see where the balance of them conclude.

 

[Joey D]

Since this is a Corvette thread...

Ok, ok. Breathe slowly and relax. Just because Bob Lutz isn't opposed to a four-door Corvette, doesn't mean GM will build a four-door Corvette. But they might. There you go again with the hyperventilating. Just chill.

Sure, Porsche built an SUV and will soon have their own super-sedan, but it doesn't mean GM must challenge them. But they might. Panic attack? Hang on, we'll join you.

Ahhh. Much better now.

Speaking with Rick Kranz, product editor of Automotive News, Bob Lutz admired what Porsche had done with their brand, extending it past sports cars to "coupes, convertibles, crossovers" and the upcoming Panamera. Then Lutz says, "You could do the same thing with the Corvette."

Oh, now I feel lightheaded. Gotta sit down a second.

Kranz says, and we quote directly from his column, "But since the Panamera sedan is bound to be a home run -- ditto for the four-door Rapide -- there must be a market for a Corvette sedan... Memo to Bob, Ed (Wellburn) and Tom (Wallace): Build it!"

How about this? Memo to Bob, Ed and Tom: Before you go messing with success, ask Ford why the Vette is still in production, and the T-bird isn't.

If they make a Corvette sedan I will hunt down Lutz and smack him up side the head.

 

[McLaren]

Has GM even read people's response to the Cayenne when it came out? Is he also realizing that the sedan isn't the same model as the 911s?

I'm sorry YSSMAN, but if you make your primary sports car that's been in a 2 door for over 50 years and nothing else, to suddenly take on Europe with 650 horses, and then not oppose a sedan version, all just so you can compete with different Porsches, makes it seem like you're desperate for something.

I mean, why would GM even think of altering the Corvette into more models just to compete with Porsches who are already different? This type of move only works for the 911 for a reason.

 

[TopHat]

This is speculation to the enth degree. Don't get all frustrated.

 

[YSSMAN]

If they make a Corvette sedan I will hunt down Lutz and smack him up side the head.

Don't worry, you're not alone. The guys at GMI have been up in arms about this for a while, but generally speaking, you really can't say much when it hadn't come directly from Team Corvette. What I think Lutz was referring to was the fact that Porsche has managed to extend itself outside of the 911 rather successfully, and what I pulled from his statement was that a similar idea could be done with the Corvette or XLR, just to have a competitor out there.

...Trust me, they'll never do a four-door Corvette. That is of course, if they don't build the Corvette-styled Nomad on the Kappa chassis...

But, I think Lutz was refering more to the Rapide and Panamera as future compeditors to a possible Cadillac spin-off, not a Corvette. People often forget that the XLR and the 'Vette share the same bones, and I think that Cadillac could do something like that... But the bigger question is whether or not if they would.

My guess is that GM may look into it a bit further as a Cadillac, but we'd be more likely to see the Sixteen in production before a four-door Y-Body...

 

[TopHat]

Or take the Y-Body, stretch it, and make it the XLS!

A fourdoor, retractable hardtop sedan!

 

[Joey D]

I say just take the Impala, make it RWD, put a 6.0L in it and call it a day.

 

[YSSMAN]

Don't worry, they're already doing that with the Impala. Problem is, they're dragging their feet while doing it...

...At least we'll have the G8 to hold us over...

 

[Keef]

I thought Goodyear Eagles were supposed to be the best all-around high performance tires money can buy... That meaning that they perform well on dry AND wet pavement. With the amount of Corvette owners who use them as daily drivers, I'm sure GM would LOVE to have a bunch of replacement complaints after people realized that their Yokohama ADVANS didn't do a damn thing in the cool [northern] California mist...

Sure, they could probably go over to Michelin and get a good set of tires (actually, I'm all for it), but given their obsession with pretty good grip, comfort, and capability, the Eagle F1s work well.

...I just wish Corvettes came without run-flat tires...

Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3 tires are "the best all-around performance tires". However, Eagle F1 Supercar tires--those of the C5 Z06, SRT-8s, and Ford GT--aren't. Chalk it up to a great suspension on the GT. F1 Supercar EMTs are the tires of the C6 Z06. These Eagle F1 GSs were terrible and I have no idea why people might buy them. Solstice GXPs and Sky Redlines come with GS-2s, which aren't all that great either. Good thing GS-D3s come in their size.

Goodyear makes 10 different types of Eagle F1 tires, and therefore specifics are necessary. THe only Eagle F1 worth a darn performance-wise is the GS-D3.

 

[Joey D]

New Spy Shots!!!

http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/automotive_news/4221132.html

DETROIT — Here's our latest look at what the Corvette folks have been working up for the ultra-fast coupe class, the 2009 Corvette SS. At least SS is the name most used in referring to this 600-plus-hp, supercharged beauty. You might think it looks like today's Corvette, except for the tape over the fenders and the black covering on the hood. But you'd be wrong.

Let’s go through the subtle—but very important—changes needed to make this a 200-mph car for the track. We think the hood covering hides a new bulge there—a necessary tweak to make room for that supercharger nestled near the vee at the top of the 6.2-liter V8 engine.

There's also a solid possibility that the new hood on the new ‘Vette is made of carbon fiber instead of the traditional Corvette fiberglass. If so, that's a major move toward weight savings. Based on the black top we’ve seen on our spy shots of this puppy in blue and then again in red—though it’s new to the yellow, which we’ve also already seen—we feel even more strongly that the prototypes are already carrying carbon-fiber black roof panels.

You might check out the stingy aero lip atop the deck in the rear. That’s new to the Corvette line, and a necessary accessory when traveling at high speed: At speed, the lip catches the air stream and forces the stream upward, creating a down pressure on the rear wheels (always good to have ultimate traction when moving at this car's hyperspeeds).

That black lower rear fascia arrangement surrounding the exhaust tips also looks new to us.

The rear view also shows new, stingy "mud flaps" that extend the fenders to cover the width of the Michelin tires. We told you before that Michelin and Goodyear were bidding for the tire contract for this vehicle, and so far it’s looking good for Michelin to take Goodyears off the Corvette for the first time ever. The Michelin sidewall details include "light load" and "outside" designations, with separate designs for each wheel. Rear wheels probably have an aspect ratio of 35 on 20-in. rims. Another detail near the fender is hidden beneath the black tape—probably two separate slots for air evacuation.

Finally, we see the design of the wheels themselves once again. Behind the dual five-spoke design on the outside of the rims, there are 10 additional spokes set inboard. As with the carbon-fiber body parts, the wheel design offers ultra-light, unsprung weight to aid handling and ride and to cut down on the vehicle's overall weight. Boy, is this beauty gonna need it. —Jim Dunne

Devil/SS/Stingray/Who-Really-Knows spy shots, this time in yellow with some modifications. Speculation continues that it will have a supercharged 6.2-liter V8 with a carbon fiber roof and hood, which probably does not include the transparent Plexiglas panel that was all the buzz a few months back. There's a new decklid lip, conjecture about a second vent higher up the front fenders, and a different shape for the lower rear fascia.

It also is possible that the uber-Corvette will ditch its Goodyears in the closet and slip into some Michelins for the big dance, a first for the Vette it seems. The rubber shoes in the photo contain markings and designs particular to each wheel. The rear rims -- the same staggered, double dual 5-spoke design seen before -- measure a whopping 20-inches, and slight mud flaps do little to hide their girth.

 

[forza2.0]

Just a side note on the 0-62mph figures. German manufacturers have a tendancy to underrate or under estimate their figures to ward off any possibilities of a lawsuit. They also do it because then the figures will be achievable by joe bloggs where as in a race driver will get better results.

Goodyear makes 10 different types of Eagle F1 tires, and therefore specifics are necessary. THe only Eagle F1 worth a darn performance-wise is the GS-D3.

Yep I have got those Eagle F1's on my car and they truely do stick to the road like glue.

 

[YSSMAN]

Ya know, I never even thought about posting, but thanks anyway!

---

The project seems to be moving quite nicely, and I believe we are due for a debut in Detroit this January. If we're getting 650+ BHP, an already lowered weight, and all the extra aerogear... Well, this car is going to be bonkers. Stupidly fast, and quite bonkers.

Oh, and while I don't generally care about doing a supercharged V8 (DIG 7.0L LS7, 650+ BHP FTW!) in terms of history, I could care less if they ditch the Goodyears on this one. They need to run the PS2s to make this thing do it right, tradition be damned.

Either way, don't they run Michelin tires on the C6.R anyway?