"Blue Devil" News: Test Details Roll In

[McLaren]

It wins on price, it's going to be around $100k which when compared to a $400k SLR is a cheap car. I would hope the more expensive car would be faster and more comfortable in all honesty, because if it wasn't why the hell would Mercedes be charging so much for it.

You can't bring in price as a factor between the Z06 and SLR.

The $400K SLR is $400K because it's hand-made and goes through a great amount of deal. There are only 6 lines devoted to it at McLaren with 1 more on the 722. The car goes through 40 miles to bring the engine in and make sure everything is running. It goes through a track afterward once more.

If GM could even afford to make the Z06 like the SLR, the Z06 would not be $70,000. You're looking at what would probably be a $170,000 Corvette. And no one pays that kind of money for current-gen. Corvettes.

The SLR is a grand tourer based upon superb performance and high-quality interiors while giving you tremendous comfort. It kneels to your needs.

The Z06 is...not. It's an American Muscle coupe that is beginning to make the phrase, "Give her more power!" come true. It performs extremely well against the Europeans, but it's no cup cake. It's just like comparing it to Ferrari F430. Though the F430 is faster, many will say, "The Z06 is cheaper."
True, but you also get a very crappy, plastic interior compared to the F430 nor will you get the heritage or high-quality details of owning a Ferrari F430.

The Z06 is terrific in what it does, but comparing prices to such high-dollar cars is worthless. You get what you pay for.

As for hoping more expensive cars to be faster, again, the price these days comes down to quality overall, not performance. That quality is usually attained by assembling the vehicle by hand, not by a machine, and not by assembling faulty roofs or plastic interiors.

 

[Joey D]

Yes you can and should bring price into it. I could say a Mercedes Benz G-Wagon or a Porsche Cayanne is better then my Blazer when it's clear all 3 are SUV's, but the G-Wagon and the Cayanne cost substantially more so it's obvious they will be better vehicles.

With the Z06, the body of the car isn't made by hand but every single engine is, so it's not a total robot made car. Frankly I think I would rather have a car made by robots then UAW workers though.

But really who cares if the Z06 has plastic panels, cheap interiors, or whatever else you want to complain about. There is nothing on the American roads that can touch it for the price, and if you are some rich guy who buys one just have the interior redone to your specifications, even if you pump 20 grand into it you are still going to come out ahead it price and performance. I will always have to side with the best bang for the buck.

 

[YSSMAN]

But really who cares if the Z06 has plastic panels, cheap interiors, or whatever else you want to complain about. There is nothing on the American roads that can touch it for the price, and if you are some rich guy who buys one just have the interior redone to your specifications, even if you pump 20 grand into it you are still going to come out ahead it price and performance. I will always have to side with the best bang for the buck.

+ 10 to you sir!

People complain over and over again about the interior when they know damn-well they can fix it themselves for a good amount of cash. Yes, you're getting what you pay for, but even if you are 'cheaping out,' it really isn't all that bad.

But even then, I'm not sure why we're arguing. We used the SLR's performance as a benchmark (actually, it was originally the Carrera GT), and now we're on the subject of interiors, build quality, and who builds them by which method?

It may be anyone's guess, but I'd assume that the 'Blue Devil' will be built mostly by hand, given that only 1000 or so will be assembled per year, and they may be the first Corvettes to not be assembled down in Kentucky in some time...

 

[JCE]

The only reason why most people even comment about the interior is when the term "daily driver" is used in the same sentence with the said ZO6. I'd say you get what you pay for with the ZO6 but I don't think you do when you DO take into account the WHOLE car which INCLUDES interior. The Viper costs even more and it has an even worse interior--this is a failure. If you are going to simplify the interior to make the car more of a road-going track car then make the thing spartan like a Noble or TVR. Yes you COULD spend an extra $20k on a spruced up interior but that's missing the point really. You don't have to turn the ZO6 into a GT car but that doesn't mean you can't make the interior a nice place to be.

But that's just my opinion.

 

[YSSMAN]

I mean, if you're really that upset with the interior, is isn't like Callaway won't upgrade it for you...

So a few new seats and some extra leather? For almost $20K? Yes, there are options out there. Oh, and that Z06 with the modded interior still costs less than the competition it can either match, or out-perform...

 

[JCE]

That looks ok, I think I'd prefer slightly more comfy seats. Less like that and more like this:

Now that is an interior. And if you are really curious it is an SL65.

 

[McLaren]

Yes you can and should bring price into it. I could say a Mercedes Benz G-Wagon or a Porsche Cayanne is better then my Blazer when it's clear all 3 are SUV's, but the G-Wagon and the Cayanne cost substantially more so it's obvious they will be better vehicles.

You brought in price as a term of "More expensive car should be faster, why else would they charge so much."

Your Blazer and the 2 European SUVs you mentioned are also a difference of maybe, $60-$70,000, maybe not even. Not to mention, no offesne, but I'm pretty sure that the Cayenne could potentially outperform your vehicle, stock for stock, if the Cayenne is a Turbo or higher. The G-Wagon isn't a sport SUV at all. There's really no reason to bring in a luxury SUV to a SUV that was made to be performance-oriented.

My point was originally, you can not bring in price when comparing th Z06 to the SLR because the difference is well over $200,000. It's not like the Viper Vs. Z06. In that, the Viper is a little bit more and competes on the same level. When that happens, it's obvious you're better off with the Z06.

But with the SLR and Z06, you have to give it a thought. That V8 in the Z06 and that Supercharged V8 are going to be built differently.
Being so, that means the V8 of the Z06 will probably be worth about $45K-$50K of the car's $70K tag. The engine produces 505Bhp out of that.
For the SLR though, being supercharged, and built by hand, makes its engine probably worth $250,000-$270,000 of the car's $400K+/- tag. That engine will produce 617Bhp.

Now, moving on, you have the interior which is obviously worth $15K at most in the Z06. In the SLR though, once again, hand made and installed much differently. It's extremely high-quality seating and everything else.

Price can not be brought in between either cars because the Z06 price tag does not include the craftsmenship of the SLR, the quality of the interior, the time it takes to produce one nor the complimentary testing.

If the Z06 was hand-built the same way, included extreme testing, and featured all the details and craftsmenship the SLR did, you would not be looking at a $70,000 Corvette. You'd be looking at a $150,000 Corvette in the U.S. The reason the Viper and the Corvette are so easy to compare, price alone, is because they're built in nearly identical ways. The SLR and the Z06 aren't. You can't just say the Z06 wins because it's, what, $310,000 cheaper. That SLR is worth more because you get features inside as well as a car that is high-class.

The Z06 is cheaper because it's built by machines.
The SLR is worth a whole lot more because time, and patience of its building time is done by people. And unlike machines, such a talent of building supercars demands a good paycheck.

With the Z06, the body of the car isn't made by hand but every single engine is, so it's not a total robot made car. Frankly I think I would rather have a car made by robots then UAW workers though.

Perhaps so, but even in engine craftsmenship, that engine is nothing like the SLR's V8. It's also just built, and installed. The SLR however, is built, installed, pushed. And if something was wrong on the SLR, it would be found by the factory. If something's wrong on the Z06, you are the one who finds it.

Again, it comes down the pricing. For that $400,000 you get a team of people (again, people are paid big money for supercars) who will make sure your car is delievered flawless. With a $70,000 Z06, you don't get a team that'll deliver the car to you to make sure everything works like it should.

But really who cares if the Z06 has plastic panels, cheap interiors, or whatever else you want to complain about.

The buyer cares. Not everyone likes plastic, esp. when they're looking for a performance vehicle at the $70,000 mark.

There is nothing on the American roads that can touch it for the price,

I'm guessing you mean, 'American-made', and while maybe true, most may agree a good ol' Viper could touch it if used.

and if you are some rich guy who buys one just have the interior redone to your specifications, even if you pump 20 grand into it you are still going to come out ahead it price and performance. I will always have to side with the best bang for the buck.

Then I take it you'll take a Z06 over an Enzo, Carrera GT, or F1 because it's a performance vehicle just like those 3, except cheaper. Or will it be because it's American-made?

I mean, if you're really that upset with the interior, is isn't like Callaway won't upgrade it for you...

So a few new seats and some extra leather? For almost $20K? Yes, there are options out there.

Give the SLR a $20K interior uprade. It'll still outclass whatever is made these days for Z06s.

Oh, and that Z06 with the modded interior still costs less than the competition it can either match, or out-perform...

I see your still thinking the Z06 is better than most. The ignorance is high tonight.

Even at $70,000, the Z06 can't even outrun a 415Bhp 911 GT3. And that puppy is easily worth $100K+ plus which means even with the Z06 now costing $90K (that interior upgrade), it'll still lacks a suspension system worth bragging about.

You know YSSMAN, you can continue to think the Z06 is ahead of the Europeans just because of our American magazines, but the fact is, it can't. Porsche is light years ahead of us, Ferrari's 430CS will probably end up laughing at the Z06, and Lamborghini's Superleggera will probably kick its butt, too.

And just to prove to you, (for hopefully the last time), here's Autozeitung times (Germany).

2. Porsche 997 Turbo - 1:38.1
3. Ferrari F430 - 1:38.1
4. Lamborghini Gallardo - 1:38.2
5. Porsche 996 Turbo S - 1:38.5
6. Chevrolet Corvette Z06 - 1:39.4
7. Porsche 997 Carrera S - 1:39.8

Notice that of all those, the Z06 is the 2nd most horsepower-producer behind the Gallardo. And you know what's worse?
Probably the fact that even with 505Bhp, a 355Bhp, $82,600 Porsche, came .4 seconds behind the Corvette.

Yeah, the Z06 is really outperforming the competition.

The Z06 with 505Bhp can barely outrun 400Bhp Porsches, and GM honestly thinks it's got a Carrera GT chance with the 650Bhp Z06?


The more I see Porsche beating us Americans in these times, the more I wonder just how much it really is worth the extra $20,000 to get a Porsche. Porsche, Ferrari, Audi, and even the English (no offense) just seem to be proving that every year, all we appear to be doing is adding more power, tweaking the suspension and brakes, and then calling it a sports car to run with Europeans. But sadly, even with 150Bhp more, our suspension is nothing comparing to their superiority. And what makes it worse is that the only cars running American engines that are actually running with Europeans are the "Kit" companies like Noble and Ultima. Both those companies use American engines with less power, and beat us with our own engines. So, are we really making sports cars to run with the Europeans? Or are we just tweaking the same ol' car, and saying we can? Guess we'll see with the new Z06.

P.S. I'll put $50 down that when the "Blue Devil" arrives, even with 650Bhp, the 911 Turbo S will be just 2 or less seconds behind it while the GT2 runs circles around it. And you can quote me on that.

 

[skip0110]

But with the SLR and Z06, you have to give it a thought. That V8 in the Z06 and that Supercharged V8 are going to be built differently.
Being so, that means the V8 of the Z06 will probably be worth about $45K-$50K of the car's $70K tag. The engine produces 505Bhp out of that.
For the SLR though, being supercharged, and built by hand, makes its engine probably worth $250,000-$270,000 of the car's $400K+/- tag. That engine will produce 617Bhp.
...
Price can not be brought in between either cars because the Z06 price tag does not include the craftsmenship of the SLR, the quality of the interior, the time it takes to produce one nor the complimentary testing.

If the Z06 was hand-built the same way, included extreme testing, and featured all the details and craftsmenship the SLR did, you would not be looking at a $70,000 Corvette. You'd be looking at a $150,000 Corvette in the U.S.

...

The Z06 is cheaper because it's built by machines.

The SLR is worth a whole lot more because time, and patience of its building time is done by people. And unlike machines, such a talent of building supercars demands a good paycheck.

Err, the Z06 motor is hand built by a single person and signed by that person. Each engine is then balanced, then broken in and dynoed to ensure it puts out the required horsepower.

The Z06 engine is tested to the same standard as any other GM engine. This means that the engine rpm is cycled between peak torque and peak power for 300 hours at full load. The engine is run until it's coolant is 210 degrees, then this coolant is flushed out and replaced with 40 degree coolant, while the engine is running.

Oh yes, and you can buy yourself a hand assembled, signed, dyno tested and custom balanced LS7 crate motor for ... not $40K-$50K as you said ... but $13,000 from GM Performance Parts.

 

[McLaren]

Err, the Z06 motor is hand built by a single person and signed by that person. Each engine is then balanced, then broken in and dynoed to ensure it puts out the required horsepower.

As is the SLR.

The Z06 engine is tested to the same standard as any other GM engine. This means that the engine rpm is cycled between peak torque and peak power for 300 hours at full load. The engine is run until it's coolant is 210 degrees, then this coolant is flushed out and replaced with 40 degree coolant, while the engine is running.

Well, I don't know the details, such as temperature, but like any other supercar, you'll get the same testing though that much is done by Mercedes before shipping it.

Oh yes, and you can buy yourself a hand assembled, signed, dyno tested and custom balanced LS7 crate motor for ... not $40K-$50K as you said ... but $13,000 from GM Performance Parts.

I used the $40-$50K as in, for $70,000, that engine probably makes up $40,000-$50,000 of that car's price like any performance machine. You don't honestly think the Carrera GT would be $440,000 without that V10 making up $350,000 of that.

And what you say is all good and true, but again, I'm 110% sure the testing of the engine and the car itself isn't done in nearly the same way McLaren has done it. Is the Corvette engine pushed to 250Kph (156Mph) for 40-60 minutes straight like the SLR's? I also have yet to hear of GM actually having folks taking every Z06 off the line and pushed on a race circuit for an hour nor I have I heard of GM shipping its customers to its headquarters to have something changed or see the car for the first time (Free of charge, tour and more included).

Again, that all goes into $400,000. Unlike the Z06, you get a lot of stuff.
-Hand built car (everything, no robot assemblies).
-Tailored to your exact needs.
-Free transportation to HQ when servicing or buying the car.
-High Quality parts.
-Extensive testing; breaking in the car; checking for any flaws.

You just don't get all of that in the Z06.


I'd like to note that I am NOT hating the Z06. I think it's a wonderful car like we all do. I, however, question it's so-called "Performance capabilities" when it comes to 355 cars just within a second of it.

 

[Joey D]

You brought in price as a term of "More expensive car should be faster, why else would they charge so much."

No I believe I said

It wins on price, it's going to be around $100k which when compared to a $400k SLR is a cheap car. I would hope the more expensive car would be faster and more comfortable in all honesty, because if it wasn't why the hell would Mercedes be charging so much for it

Comfort and speed. A more expensive car should both be faster and more comfortable...at least in the sports car world.

Your Blazer and the 2 European SUVs you mentioned are also a difference of maybe, $60-$70,000, maybe not even. Not to mention, no offesne, but I'm pretty sure that the Cayenne could potentially outperform your vehicle, stock for stock, if the Cayenne is a Turbo or higher. The G-Wagon isn't a sport SUV at all. There's really no reason to bring in a luxury SUV to a SUV that was made to be performance-oriented.

Fine take a Tahoe and put it against the Blazer, the Tahoe will be faster, more comfortable, carry more people, and can do more things...but it will also be 40 more thousand dollars.

My point was originally, you can not bring in price when comparing th Z06 to the SLR because the difference is well over $200,000. It's not like the Viper Vs. Z06. In that, the Viper is a little bit more and competes on the same level. When that happens, it's obvious you're better off with the Z06.

Yes you can, that's exactly why you should bring the price in. A car that cost...hell anything that cost $200,000 more should be better. A $440,000 SLR should be worlds ahead of a $70,000 Z06. You need to be comparing the Z06 to Jags, Aston Martins, TVR's, etc. You can even include the 911 in that match up like many car magazines do. And that's another thing, no car magazine has pitted the SLR against the Z06 because they know it's a stupid comparison.

But with the SLR and Z06, you have to give it a thought. That V8 in the Z06 and that Supercharged V8 are going to be built differently.
Being so, that means the V8 of the Z06 will probably be worth about $45K-$50K of the car's $70K tag. The engine produces 505Bhp out of that.
For the SLR though, being supercharged, and built by hand, makes its engine probably worth $250,000-$270,000 of the car's $400K+/- tag. That engine will produce 617Bhp.

Do you understand how car marketing works? GM, and any major car company for that matter who never put that expensive of an engine in such a cheap car, the engine does not make up half the price of the car. At most the Z06 costs $55k to make. I'm willing to bet the SLR doesn't cost anywhere near $400k to make, the company needs to turn a profit.

Now, moving on, you have the interior which is obviously worth $15K at most in the Z06. In the SLR though, once again, hand made and installed much differently. It's extremely high-quality seating and everything else.

I'd expect a $400K car to have a hand made interior, I wouldn't expect a $70k car.

Price can not be brought in between either cars because the Z06 price tag does not include the craftsmenship of the SLR, the quality of the interior, the time it takes to produce one nor the complimentary testing.

Yes it can, for that reason along it can.

If the Z06 was hand-built the same way, included extreme testing, and featured all the details and craftsmenship the SLR did, you would not be looking at a $70,000 Corvette. You'd be looking at a $150,000 Corvette in the U.S. The reason the Viper and the Corvette are so easy to compare, price alone, is because they're built in nearly identical ways. The SLR and the Z06 aren't. You can't just say the Z06 wins because it's, what, $310,000 cheaper. That SLR is worth more because you get features inside as well as a car that is high-class.

I didn't say the Z06 wins, I'm well aware the SLR is faster. But I've been saying you really should compare cars that are $310,000 apart. But you are just proving my point with everything you say, the SLR goes though more of a build process and therefore should be more expensive.

The Z06 is cheaper because it's built by machines.
The SLR is worth a whole lot more because time, and patience of its building time is done by people. And unlike machines, such a talent of building supercars demands a good paycheck.

Once again the engine is hand built.

Perhaps so, but even in engine craftsmenship, that engine is nothing like the SLR's V8. It's also just built, and installed. The SLR however, is built, installed, pushed. And if something was wrong on the SLR, it would be found by the factory. If something's wrong on the Z06, you are the one who finds it.

The Z06 engine is dynoed and tested before it gets put into the car. And if it the Z06 breaks I'll just take it to one of 7200 dealers and get it fixed. The SLR isn't something I can just drop off for warranty work down the street.

The buyer cares. Not everyone likes plastic, esp. when they're looking for a performance vehicle at the $70,000 mark.

The buyer is more then likely interested in the performance aspect of the Z06, not the interior. And really I didn't find the interior of the Z06 all that bad.

I'm guessing you mean, 'American-made', and while maybe true, most may agree a good ol' Viper could touch it if used.

No I mean there is nothing on the American roads that is the best bang for the buck. period.

Then I take it you'll take a Z06 over an Enzo, Carrera GT, or F1 because it's a performance vehicle just like those 3, except cheaper. Or will it be because it's American-made?

Is this supposed to be a joke?

I would take a Z06 in a heartbeat, but if cost was not a factor (which it will always be, I don't live on Fantasy Island) I would take a Konigsegg.

 

[Dave A]

Yes you can, that's exactly why you should bring the price in. A car that cost...hell anything that cost $200,000 more should be better. A $440,000 SLR should be worlds ahead of a $70,000 Z06. You need to be comparing the Z06 to Jags, Aston Martins, TVR's, etc. You can even include the 911 in that match up like many car magazines do. And that's another thing, no car magazine has pitted the SLR against the Z06 because they know it's a stupid comparison.

I wouldn't compare it to Astons and Jags, the Z06 is no grand tourer. TVR's, Marcos's and Nobles on the other is a more than fair comparis, in the company of thoes cars the battle is pretty clsoe fought on both the price and performance front. how clsoe it iss is demonstrated by the fact that in thier home markets the TVR's and Nobles are regarded as the better choie while in it's home market the Corvette is.

Do you understand how car marketing works? GM, and any major car company for that matter who never put that expensive of an engine in such a cheap car, the engine does not make up half the price of the car. At most the Z06 costs $55k to make. I'm willing to bet the SLR doesn't cost anywhere near $400k to make, the company needs to turn a profit.

On tihs point I have to side with McLaren, the point he was making isn't that the engine itself costs that much or is worth that much, it's how much to fthe price of the car the company puts down to the engine. If Mercedes put a 3.5 liter V6 in the SLR, they could not justify that price tag, as it is with that CLK-GTR derived AMG V12, they can. It's apples and oranges though, the SLR and Corvette have very little in common appart from thier performance, which given how vastly different the cars actually are, doesn't suddenly mean they make the ideal comparison. And on that front, McLaren is right regarding the price, if I'm in the market for a car of the LR's caliber, I will not be considering a Z06, certainly not buying one then sending to some aftermarket company to re-do the interior regardless of the price of advantage.

I didn't say the Z06 wins, I'm well aware the SLR is faster. But I've been saying you really should compare cars that are $310,000 apart. But you are just proving my point with everything you say, the SLR goes though more of a build process and therefore should be more expensive.

Agreed.

The Z06 engine is dynoed and tested before it gets put into the car. And if it the Z06 breaks I'll just take it to one of 7200 dealers and get it fixed. The SLR isn't something I can just drop off for warranty work down the street.

you lose that advantage if you own on eoutside of the US though.

The buyer is more then likely interested in the performance aspect of the Z06, not the interior. And really I didn't find the interior of the Z06 all that bad.

As you already know, I did. And I wouldn't want a car with the Z06's ride and interior as a day to day car.

No I mean there is nothing on the American roads that is the best bang for the buck. period.

There is. you can't say you wouldn't be interested in the interior at one point and that the Corvette is best bang for buck then choose to ignor cars like the Atom the next. If the Atom doesn't suit becuse it doesn't have enough creature comforts, then comfort is a big part of the equation. If you just want a roof then theres plenty of cars along the lines of a SuperSeve like the Donkervoort DRS that can be bought with a hard top, and theres even some proper coupes. They should all offer better bangs for your bucks than the Z06. I can understand how the Z06's cheap interior is justified in the US, the car costs about £30,000 over there, that's VERY cheap. But when it costs £60,000 in Europe, it's not a great deal compared to rivals.

I would take a Z06 in a heartbeat, but if cost was not a factor (which it will always be, I don't live on Fantasy Island) I would take a Konigsegg.

As you say, price is always a factor, but if I was rich enough to consider buying any of thoes cars, i would not be looking at the more common budget car with the lowest prestige that isn't the best, just the best bang for buck. If I'm that concerned with bangs for my bucks I'd buy a second hand hot hatch for a grand or so. Not much can come close to that for performance for your cash.

 

[skip0110]

And what you say is all good and true, but again, I'm 110% sure the testing of the engine and the car itself isn't done in nearly the same way McLaren has done it. Is the Corvette engine pushed to 250Kph (156Mph) for 40-60 minutes straight like the SLR's? I also have yet to hear of GM actually having folks taking every Z06 off the line and pushed on a race circuit for an hour nor I have I heard of GM shipping its customers to its headquarters to have something changed or see the car for the first time (Free of charge, tour and more included).

GM has plenty of money to do all this testing, and they have the facilities, as well. I mean, they have their own testing facility with 4 high speed test courses, one of which is 6.5 miles in length and one that is 12 miles in length, as well as two banked ovals, two road courses, and a 62 acre paved lot.

Of course no one will see GM testing the Z06; why would they test it public racetracks when they have more that 130 miles of their own private roads to test on, staffed with 4,500 dedicated GM employees? If anything, GM has better resources to test a vehicle than a smaller, independent manufacturer (like Noble) does. As to the McLaren, I am sure M-B let them use their proving grounds, which are undoubtedly very similar.

There is no customization available on the Vette, as you said. But if you want a tour of the assembly plant, anyone is welcome. The tour isn't free of charge--it costs $5--but you don't even have to buy a Vette!

Again, that all goes into $400,000. Unlike the Z06, you get a lot of stuff.
-Hand built car (everything, no robot assemblies).
-Tailored to your exact needs.
-Free transportation to HQ when servicing or buying the car.
-High Quality parts.
-Extensive testing; breaking in the car; checking for any flaws.

You just don't get all of that in the Z06.

Well I should hope that you get something for the additional $300,000.

I'd like to note that I am NOT hating the Z06. I think it's a wonderful car like we all do. I, however, question it's so-called "Performance capabilities" when it comes to 355 cars just within a second of it.

And I'm not hating on the McLaren. They just strike a different price/performance/luxury balance. Like it or not, the performance bits of the Z06 are very well tested. It's slower than something like an Atom, but easier to live with and service. It's harder to live with and less comfortable or exclusive than a McLaren, but nearly as fast and almost 5 times cheaper.

 

[Onikaze]

So nevermind that there are people who simply prefer the looks of one car over the other?

More of a vette guy myself, the proportions of a Z06 strike my eyes very well. SLR's are a little overly phallic IMO.

 

[YSSMAN]

Give the SLR a $20K interior uprade. It'll still outclass whatever is made these days for Z06s.

Why the hell does that mean anything? Even with the extra $20K upgrade in the Corvette, its still $310K cheaper than the SLR... Beyond that, is an upgrade of the SLR's interior even necessary? Its nice, but it isn't that much nicer than what is found in the 'standard' SL, by which is presumably comparable to the upgraded Callaway interior.

I see your still thinking the Z06 is better than most. The ignorance is high tonight.

Even at $70,000, the Z06 can't even outrun a 415Bhp 911 GT3. And that puppy is easily worth $100K+ plus which means even with the Z06 now costing $90K (that interior upgrade), it'll still lacks a suspension system worth bragging about.

You know YSSMAN, you can continue to think the Z06 is ahead of the Europeans just because of our American magazines, but the fact is, it can't. Porsche is light years ahead of us, Ferrari's 430CS will probably end up laughing at the Z06, and Lamborghini's Superleggera will probably kick its butt, too.

I don't think you read my quote too well...

Oh, and that Z06 with the modded interior still costs less than the competition it can either match, or out-perform...

You've quoted however many European magazines time and time again to attempt to convince all of us that the Z06 isn't a performer, and quite frankly, we don't care. The results are usually a bit varied, but no matter where the Corvette finishes, it is still hanging around with cars that cost three times as much. Quite frankly, coming from a US company, built by hand down in Kentucky, with parts made in Detroit, that is serviceable at more than 7000 dealers across the US, I'd say that is mighty impressive no matter where you stand on the issue.

I've also made note several times that Team Corvette recently updated the suspension on the Z06, and although I am not certain of the overall performance enhancements that it would give the car by comparison to the origional (all sources thus far haven't driven the updated Z06 on the same track), it should be marginally better... And even then, you have said before that it also comes down to the track in question, and quite frankly I'm sick of arguing with you over the minute details.

Like it or not, the Z06 can damn-near match or out-perform cars that cost tens of thousdands, and even hundreds of thousands more. Does it meant that the Z06 can out-perform each one? No, and I've said that several times. But it can damn-near match them, and again, for $70K, I'd call that a damn-good job.

...With GM throwing an extra 150+ BHP at the Corvette with a better suspension, interior, and an all-around sportier nature, I'm willing to bet that there won't be anything out there to match it in terms of performance per dollar... And when I can buy that car for $100K, have it serviced at 7000+ dealers, and still be able to match or out-perform competition that is tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands more, I'd call that a deal.

---

So yes, the Americans are advancing on your beloved European sports cars. The Germans have done a damn-good-job keeping up, and I'm certain they will do their best to counter the 'Blue Devil' and the new SRT-10 whatever way possible.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Porsches and my Mercedes-Benz products, but just like any other American, I'm more likely to root for the home-team whenever possible. So I ask, is that a problem?

For the first time that I can recall, Team Corvette is actually bringing adequate fire-power to the European gun-fights, and its about time. That isn't to say that previous attempts weren't good ones (the previous Z06 held-up quite well against the competition too), but this is the first time that we've been this deep in with the Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Porsches, AMGs, etc out there today. We've done a damn-good job, and I'm likely to assume that GM wants to continue on the current path, maybe not to become the top-performing car in the class, but to establish an overall standard that is comparable to some of the greatest sports cars built and sold anywhere in the world.

So please, tell me why this is a problem? Or are Americans too stupid to have high-performance cars that are this capable?

 

[ExigeEvan]

YSSMAN, I what you appear to be looking for is intrnational recognition that the Z06 and the Blue Devil are highly capable cars that can compete with the best Europe has to offer.

The fact is, they can, in America.

But, outside of America things become more complicated as there are import costs and exchange rates that hugely inflate the cost. You mention that the Blue Devil could be $100k dollars. That's almost £200k! Unless that thing is luxurious and fast, it doesn't make sense!

 

[skip0110]

The fact is, they can, in America.

But, outside of America things become more complicated as there are import costs and exchange rates that hugely inflate the cost. You mention that the Blue Devil could be $100k dollars. That's almost £200k! Unless that thing is luxurious and fast, it doesn't make sense!

This is very well put.

 

[Joey D]

I wouldn't compare it to Astons and Jags, the Z06 is no grand tourer. TVR's, Marcos's and Nobles on the other is a more than fair comparis, in the company of thoes cars the battle is pretty clsoe fought on both the price and performance front. how clsoe it iss is demonstrated by the fact that in thier home markets the TVR's and Nobles are regarded as the better choie while in it's home market the Corvette is.

Well whatever else you choose to compare it to, do not compare it to a $400K+ car.

As you already know, I did. And I wouldn't want a car with the Z06's ride and interior as a day to day car.

Have you ever been in a Z06? I'm not trying to be a jackass, but I am wondering. I've ridden in one twice and I've driven a C6 Vette a few times (the joys of living in GM Land). I, personally, didn't find it all that bad.

There is. you can't say you wouldn't be interested in the interior at one point and that the Corvette is best bang for buck then choose to ignor cars like the Atom the next. If the Atom doesn't suit becuse it doesn't have enough creature comforts, then comfort is a big part of the equation. If you just want a roof then theres plenty of cars along the lines of a SuperSeve like the Donkervoort DRS that can be bought with a hard top, and theres even some proper coupes. They should all offer better bangs for your bucks than the Z06. I can understand how the Z06's cheap interior is justified in the US, the car costs about £30,000 over there, that's VERY cheap. But when it costs £60,000 in Europe, it's not a great deal compared to rivals.

I don't even think you can drive, let alone, buy an Atom around here. I can't even think were I would go to inquire about one. But I seriously doubt they are legal on anything other then a track. But if someone can prove me wrong I will gladly admit defeat on that one. I've seen things like the Donkervoot (not sure what they were) on the road but that was during the Dream Cruise when they just don't care about how legal your car is. So yes there are cars that can beat it, but whether or not they are actually road cars in another story.

As you say, price is always a factor, but if I was rich enough to consider buying any of thoes cars, i would not be looking at the more common budget car with the lowest prestige that isn't the best, just the best bang for buck. If I'm that concerned with bangs for my bucks I'd buy a second hand hot hatch for a grand or so. Not much can come close to that for performance for your cash.

That's why I said I would take a Konigsegg if cost was no option, sure it's not the fastest supercar out there, but it's got doors that would make an engineer cry.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Well whatever else you choose to compare it to, do not compare it to a $400K+ car.

why not if GM is ?

 

[Joey D]

GM isn't comparing the Z06 to the Carrera GT, they said they are aiming to beat it performance wise...which is a pretty decent goal. Why settle for less when you can aim your sights high?

And I believe YSSMAN was the one who brought up the point about the SLR and the Z06, I do not know the context though.

 

[skip0110]

The Atom is legal on US roads.

It gets away with having no airbags etc. by being classified as a kit car, I believe (just like the Noble).

 

[Joey D]

Ahhh gotcha, that's what I was wondering about. I mean it's really not any less safer then say a motorcycle. I wonder if you are required to wear a helmet with one? I know all the Catheram like cars I've seen, the driver is wearing a helmet.

 

[Dave A]

Well whatever else you choose to compare it to, do not compare it to a $400K+ car.

It's not so much a question of price, it's a question of market competitiveness. The SLR and Z06 don't compete in the market.

Have you ever been in a Z06? I'm not trying to be a jackass, but I am wondering. I've ridden in one twice and I've driven a C6 Vette a few times (the joys of living in GM Land). I, personally, didn't find it all that bad.

I've been in one, I've not driven one orbeen driven around in one, but regarding the ride I'll take pretty much every UK publications word for it. Theres a car dealership in Manchester that specialises in American cars, imports and has the occasional Countach, Morgan or TVR in stock as well. Everytime I'm in town I take a peek and chat to one of the guys there.

I don't even think you can drive, let alone, buy an Atom around here. I can't even think were I would go to inquire about one. But I seriously doubt they are legal on anything other then a track. But if someone can prove me wrong I will gladly admit defeat on that one.

The Atom is sold officially inthe US by Ariel and meets all US requirements. What do you think there is on the Atom that would prevent it from being legal there, it has an engine that meets emissions?

I've seen things like the Donkervoot (not sure what they were) on the road but that was during the Dream Cruise when they just don't care about how legal your car is. So yes there are cars that can beat it, but whether or not they are actually road cars in another story.

Yes they are, they'res plent of cars like that that are fully road legal in the US.

That's why I said I would take a Konigsegg if cost was no option, sure it's not the fastest supercar out there, but it's got doors that would make an engineer cry.

But like you said, money is always an issue, even for the filthy rich. Buying a Koenigsegg still means spending their money however small a percentage of what they may have it is. You talk about buying the Z06 because it's cheap, but what if you can really afford a car that's twice as much, will you still buy the Z06? Some will, no doubt about that. But a lot will buy into the prestige, better ride, performance and interor and the exclusivity of other cars and happily pay the premium for that.

There is nothing wrong with your love of the Corvette, which in many ways mimmic my opinion of most TVR's. But sometimes I have to admit that the interior fit quality is shocking and they're suicidal in the wet. Bottom line is the Corvette is only a bargain in the US, TVR's are a bargain in Europe, I have no idea on the pricing in Asia but the Sagaris seems steep in the US. but that's no fault of TVR's, thats the global economy at work. Much like the global economy dictates that Cheverolet can't sell the C6 for the same price as the respective TVR over here. It's swings and roundabouts, the Corvette is a bargain sportscar for someone after that type of sportscar, but only in the US. the fact that it's a bargain sportscar does not make it better than a 911, F430 or Gallardo, it just make it an alternative. If you can afford a Gallardo, the price might not be the number one priority, it might, but it might not. and which is best will boil down to the individual who spends thier hard earned (or not) cash on a sportscar.

 

[Joey D]

I've been in one, I've not driven one orbeen driven around in one, but regarding the ride I'll take pretty much every UK publications word for it. Theres a car dealership in Manchester that specialises in American cars, imports and has the occasional Countach, Morgan or TVR in stock as well. Everytime I'm in town I take a peek and chat to one of the guys there.

I wouldn't take the word of a UK publication on an American car anymore then I would take an American publication on a UK car, Jags and Astons are not looked upon favorably by the Americans. I'm not sure if your roads are bad in the UK or not, like as it potholes and cracks, here in the US, especially in the north, the roads are in awful condition and even then I don't find the ride any less comfortable then say a Mazda Protege.

The Atom is sold officially inthe US by Ariel and meets all US requirements. What do you think there is on the Atom that would prevent it from being legal there, it has an engine that meets emissions?

I thought it was the lack of airbags to be honest with you, and possibly the crash ratings on it. But I figured it would have to meet emissions standards since it has a Cobalt SS engine in it if I'm not mistaken...a 2.0L Supercharged Ecotec.

But like you said, money is always an issue, even for the filthy rich. Buying a Koenigsegg still means spending their money however small a percentage of what they may have it is. You talk about buying the Z06 because it's cheap, but what if you can really afford a car that's twice as much, will you still buy the Z06? Some will, no doubt about that. But a lot will buy into the prestige, better ride, performance and interor and the exclusivity of other cars and happily pay the premium for that.

Would I? Yes, the Z06...or for that matter a Corvette is my dream car. If I could afford it, I would own one, no questions asked. The Corvette is more then just a sports car, it's an icon, which is why so many rich Americans buy them.

There is nothing wrong with your love of the Corvette, which in many ways mimmic my opinion of most TVR's. But sometimes I have to admit that the interior fit quality is shocking and they're suicidal in the wet. Bottom line is the Corvette is only a bargain in the US, TVR's are a bargain in Europe, I have no idea on the pricing in Asia but the Sagaris seems steep in the US. but that's no fault of TVR's, thats the global economy at work. Much like the global economy dictates that Cheverolet can't sell the C6 for the same price as the respective TVR over here. It's swings and roundabouts, the Corvette is a bargain sportscar for someone after that type of sportscar, but only in the US. the fact that it's a bargain sportscar does not make it better than a 911, F430 or Gallardo, it just make it an alternative. If you can afford a Gallardo, the price might not be the number one priority, it might, but it might not. and which is best will boil down to the individual who spends thier hard earned (or not) cash on a sportscar.

Of course, there will always be people that buy a car on brand alone. I know a Ferrari is exponentially more prestigious then a Chevy, which probably attracts more buyers then the performance. I honestly would wager most of the people that buys high end sports cars never use them in the way they were intended to be used. Some could say they are just like over priced SUV's.

 

[YSSMAN]

And I believe YSSMAN was the one who brought up the point about the SLR and the Z06, I do not know the context though.

Actually I mentioned the Carrera GT based on Lutz's words, but I know I've talked about it before, but I want to say Toronado (?) did it? Maybe not...

---

YSSMAN, I what you appear to be looking for is intrnational recognition that the Z06 and the Blue Devil are highly capable cars that can compete with the best Europe has to offer.

The fact is, they can, in America.

But, outside of America things become more complicated as there are import costs and exchange rates that hugely inflate the cost. You mention that the Blue Devil could be $100k dollars. That's almost £200k! Unless that thing is luxurious and fast, it doesn't make sense!

I would suppose my feelings are somewhat similar to your interpretation, but its more of a consideration of equals in terms of performance, not necessarily in price. With the Dollar as weak as it is against the Pound, and even so against the Euro, I wouldn't expect the Corvette to be the 'cheapest' model available in the UK or elsewhere, but correct me if I'm wrong, it is still cheaper than most of the sports cars with similar capabilities, no?

If I may do some rough calculations in terms of pricing, I do find it a bit odd how things are set-up in the UK. I see that the 'base' Corvette there starts at 45,850 GBP, and then moves up to 59,850 GBP for the Z06. Compared to the American prices set at 44,250 USD and 69,175 USD respectively, you actually pay less money for the model change, a 30% price hike versus that of the 56% price hike in the US.

Now if we are to roughly speak of pricing on the 'Blue Devil' in theory of course, the price increase (in the US) would be roughly 45% over that of the current Z06, so in the UK it would retail for roughly 87,000 GBP. That still sits it well-below the price of the Ferrari 430 (127,000 GBP) and the Lamborghini Gallardo (117,000 GBP). But, as it has been pointed out numerous times before, TVR would be happy to sell you a car that could match the performance for less money... The Sagaris and the Tuscan for 49,350 GBP and 49,995 GBP (Tuscan 2 4.0) respectively.

...Still, not a bad deal, but in terms of dollars, you are paying 74,000 USD more for the 'Blue Devil' than we would...

 

[harrytuttle]

aiming for a car that isnt made anymore? way to keep up to date gm!

slr will still destory it.

You "keeping up to date" in the same way every supercar manufacturer tried to beat the McLaren F1?

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

But I figured it would have to meet emissions standards since it has a Cobalt SS engine in it if I'm not mistaken...a 2.0L Supercharged Ecotec.

no it has a supercharged civic type r engine

You "keeping up to date" in the same way every supercar manufacturer tried to beat the McLaren F1?

not really,i havent heard any of the company say directly that they are building this car to beat the mclaren f1.they have said they are wanting it to be the fastest car in the world but to beat the f1,nope

 

[skip0110]

no it has a supercharged civic type r engine

Maybe where you are but in the US it does have a supercharged 2.0 Ecotec for emissions compliance.

 

[Joey D]

According to this: http://www.arielatom.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=137&Itemid=30

it has the Ecotec.

 

[Dave A]

I would suppose my feelings are somewhat similar to your interpretation, but its more of a consideration of equals in terms of performance, not necessarily in price. With the Dollar as weak as it is against the Pound, and even so against the Euro, I wouldn't expect the Corvette to be the 'cheapest' model available in the UK or elsewhere, but correct me if I'm wrong, it is still cheaper than most of the sports cars with similar capabilities, no?

Not really for what it is, the Z06 cheap for it's performance but not for it's refinement. The C6 coupe and Convertible are overpriced, they cost £46,500 here for the coupe and the prices for the base C6's go upto £55,500 (that's near enough $93,000 and $111,000). A TVR Sagaris which is closer to the Z06 in perormance than the standard coupe can be bought new, for £45,500 ($91,000). The TVR's that the standard coupe is more on terms with would be TVR T350C for £39,500. Now the Z06 costs £60,000 ($120,000) here, that put's it level with the entry Porsche 911's. I'm pretty sure that in the US you can't get a new Porsche 911 for Z06 money at all. Also, for £10,000 ($20,000) less you can get the not quite as quick Sagaris. For £10,000 more you can get the just as quick Noble M15 which in many peoples eyes is a far more refined machine, so the Z06 is sort of thereabouts in price, not the bargain it is in the US but not overly expensive either. It's dead in the water as far as UK sales are concerned though regardless of ride or quality simply because GM kept the wheel on the left.

If I may do some rough calculations in terms of pricing, I do find it a bit odd how things are set-up in the UK. I see that the 'base' Corvette there starts at 45,850 GBP, and then moves up to 59,850 GBP for the Z06. Compared to the American prices set at 44,250 USD and 69,175 USD respectively, you actually pay less money for the model change, a 30% price hike versus that of the 56% price hike in the US.

The jump is smaller but the overall prices are still far higher. We pay a lot more for the base C6 coupe than you do for a well specced Z06.

Now if we are to roughly speak of pricing on the 'Blue Devil' in theory of course, the price increase (in the US) would be roughly 45% over that of the current Z06, so in the UK it would retail for roughly 87,000 GBP. That still sits it well-below the price of the Ferrari 430 (127,000 GBP) and the Lamborghini Gallardo (117,000 GBP). But, as it has been pointed out numerous times before, TVR would be happy to sell you a car that could match the performance for less money... The Sagaris and the Tuscan for 49,350 GBP and 49,995 GBP (Tuscan 2 4.0) respectively.

The Tuscan 2 and Sagaris don't start at thoes prices, well the Sagaris is officially £49,000 but they sell new for £45,000 without bartering. The Tusan 2 starts at £40,000 and goes upto £50,000 for the top model. Ofcourse I've been comparing largely to TVR's because they're quite a well known car I guess as well as I simply love them, but we do have a lot of other sportscars in the same price range like the £49,000 Marcos TSO and £49,000 Noble M12 GTO 3R that pretty much make the Corvette no more than a left hand drive number. You have to understand, in the UK to Corvette is slap dab in the middle of a market saturated with sportscars of that performance and price range. It's not the worst option, or most expensive, but without the status symbol it has in the US and without the bargain appeal, it's nothing more than just another car.

...Still, not a bad deal, but in terms of dollars, you are paying 74,000 USD more for the 'Blue Devil' than we would...

Indeed, we pay well over the odds for a lot of things here, if you think cars are bad you should see the house prices .

I wouldn't take the word of a UK publication on an American car anymore then I would take an American publication on a UK car, Jags and Astons are not looked upon favorably by the Americans. I'm not sure if your roads are bad in the UK or not, like as it potholes and cracks, here in the US, especially in the north, the roads are in awful condition and even then I don't find the ride any less comfortable then say a Mazda Protege.

Normally I'd agree with you, but many of these same magazines and testers were happy enough with the ride on the Coupe and Cabriolet. It just doesn't add up.

 

[Joey D]

The suspension on the Z06 is different then that of the coupe and convertible, but all track oriented sports cars have that problem. The Z06 is basically a dumbed down version of the technology used on the C6R if I'm not mistaken.