BMW M League anyone interested???

[Denilson]

The only way to go is to find a PP for each car to stay below. And when hosting a race, simply set the lowest PP and all cars that are supposed to run at that PP enter the track. Then raise the PP to the next level and so on until all cars are on track.

 

[cjs959]

Hey coming back to this after a week it looks good and you seem to have a good enthusiasm about making a proper league. I dont think there is enough interest in this league to really take off but we'll see how it goes when you make a proper thread AFTER you set up rules and regs.

I still think we should limit the cars though. By popularity, we should go with the Z3M, M3 v8, M3 GTR, and possibly the M5(however I didnt notice anyone really interested in the M5). If you can give me enough time I'll PM you a propsed full structure of the league after I thoroughly test the cars and you can present it or critique it however you want. My credentials will be based off of GTA if you have any questions. PSN redcouch1

I would appreciate your input (or anyone else's for that matter) on the full structure of this league.

"GTA", i'm not familiar with "GTA", don't know what your refering to.

You missed out on a bunch of us having some fun races last night. I had a blast, the competition was pretty fair with a few guys running their CSL's and smoking the rest of the field, I had the lobby capped with a 520PP limit, I was running a modded and tuned new M3 with 516PP, 420 HP, not sure of the weight but basically have done all of the weight reductions to it and I couldn't keep up with the CSL's (Driver skill probably had the most to do with that as I'm not a "pro" GT5 driver).

As far as the structure of the league here's some bullet points of things I had in mind...

1) Full points system, extra points for qualifying on the poll, most laps led, fastest lap

2) 4-8 races for the first season, most of the tracks will be determinded threw a vote or input from YOU... My two tracks that will for sure be in the schedule are Daytona Road course, and either Nurburgring Nordschleife/ Nurburgring GP. Other tracks are TBD.

3) Tire restrictions will be pretty relaxed if we do Hour long races (if we do decide to allow racing tires racing hards should be the only allow racing tire..theirs no need to have mediums or softs with these cars)

4) Grid start w/false starts

5) Heavy damage (some people don't like this, I think it will help keep it clean and realistic)

6) PP limit with other restrictions (tires, suspension, weight, mods)

6A) Mandatory mods such as fully adjustable suspension, LSD, Tires

6B) Optional mods... anything within PP and weight restrictions.
PP limit will be around 500, so there won't be a lot of room for modding.
Weight restrictions will be Independant to the specific vehicle (we will use reduction/balast to balance cars... this is only as needed, I haven't done enough testing on this yet and need to be careful we do the weight right. I don't want to Handicap ANYONE, just trying to have some fun close tight racing)

Let me know what ya think, please reply... Let me know what you like and dislike about this "rough" structure.

Specifically I want to know how everyone feels about

45-60 minute races
Tracks you want in the series

Any other input is welcomed

 

[Denilson]

As I said earlier: It will be difficult to make all cars equal when running the same PP. We need to fins a PP for EACH model to make sure the field is even.

Tracks: Nurburgring 24h is a must.
La Sarthe, Laguna Seca, Indy Road, Coute Dázure, Monza are really nice tracks.
As you might noticed: I love real world tracks. Do not fancy the "original" tracks at all.

60 minutes is perfect if you ask me.

Heavy damage 👍

I'd love to see the gripreduction set to: REAL
I'd love to see all aids of, except ABS

 

[Talon]

As I said earlier: It will be difficult to make all cars equal when running the same PP. We need to fins a PP for EACH model to make sure the field is even.

No it won't, and no we don't. I have been in countless PP restricted 'Ring races online, and every car that meets the limit has a fair chance to win. I have raced a stock Susuki Swift against some old Alfa, the Alfa winning, and the CSL that I was using yesterday against the Range Stormer Concept, and the SUV won. PP works.

As for tires, I say sports soft at the most. These are street cars, and should be running street tires. Race tires ruin the game for me anyway, it turns everything into a go-kart.

 

[Denilson]

No it won't, and no we don't. I have been in countless PP restricted 'Ring races online, and every car that meets the limit has a fair chance to win. I have raced a stock Susuki Swift against some old Alfa, the Alfa winning, and the CSL that I was using yesterday against the Range Stormer Concept, and the SUV won. PP works.

As for tires, I say sports soft at the most. These are street cars, and should be running street tires. Race tires ruin the game for me anyway, it turns everything into a go-kart.

I'm only saying what I've experianced. It's not like your experiance is any more true than mine.. Sorry..

 

[Talon]

Ok then maybe I'm not understanding right. How is having a bunch of different cars all at different PP levels going to make the field even? It seems like every model will just be in their own class at that point.

 

[cjs959]

I think a general PP restriction works pretty good and is best to use... If we feel further balancing is required I suggest a HP to weight ratio that must be maintained by all the different cars. I like sports tires as well, and I also mainly like REAL tracks. All aids will be "realistic", only TCS and ABS will be allowed with grid reduction at REAL.

 

[cjs959]

grip reduction*

 

[Egghead43]

With the ballast and power limiter options now, the combinations to reach any particular PP level is limitless. Throw in the various different types of tracks, and we could be testing for years

Just set a PP number and tire spec and be done with it. We can tune our cars to each track as necessary. 👍

With the unrealistic draft in this game, that will level out any slight laptime advantages in free run mode.

 

[cjs959]

With the ballast and power limiter options now, the combinations to reach any particular PP level is limitless. Throw in the various different types of tracks, and we could be testing for years
Agree completely:tup:
Just set a PP number and tire spec and be done with it. We can tune our cars to each track as necessary. 👍
👍
With the unrealistic draft in this game, that will level out any slight laptime advantages in free run mode.

I don't want to take forever to test and set regs, just trying to listen to everyone and accomadate everyone (within reason). With having different cars out there its going to be near impossible to have all the cars set up EXACTLY even. With the PP system it's close enough (especially with tire restrictions).

 

[DCerinza]

I am in, PSN: DiegoC1980

Vehicule BMW M5

 

[Denilson]

Ok then maybe I'm not understanding right. How is having a bunch of different cars all at different PP levels going to make the field even? It seems like every model will just be in their own class at that point.

Because (to me), the PP system is not accutaye enough, I'm running a GT Champioship at the moment. And we have ben running since the end of December. We have had a lot of discussion about cars and their performance. Try setting the Honda RAYBRING NSX and the Lexus PETRONAS TOM'S SC430 to the same PP rate (600), and do a few laps on any track that suits you. The aero, hp, and weight is wery similar since the cars are based on the same (RL) regulations, but in the game with equal PP the cars are WIDE apart lap-time-wise.

This might be a "race-car-issue" or something. But since the PP is way off in this case, I don't trust it for this champioship either. And in the end, all drivers will end up in the same car, and we will have a "one-make" championship. If we want the grid to look diverse, a different PP for each model is what I suggest. 👍

 

[BrosifDuder]

As for tires, I say sports soft at the most. These are street cars, and should be running street tires.

I agree 10003%.

Just set a PP number and tire spec and be done with it. We can tune our cars to each track as necessary. 👍

With the unrealistic draft in this game, that will level out any slight laptime advantages in free run mode.

I say 500PP and vehicles with adjustable aerodynamic downforce should be prohibited.

 

[Talon]

Because (to me), the PP system is not accutaye enough, I'm running a GT Champioship at the moment. And we have ben running since the end of December. We have had a lot of discussion about cars and their performance. Try setting the Honda RAYBRING NSX and the Lexus PETRONAS TOM'S SC430 to the same PP rate (600), and do a few laps on any track that suits you. The aero, hp, and weight is wery similar since the cars are based on the same (RL) regulations, but in the game with equal PP the cars are WIDE apart lap-time-wise.

This might be a "race-car-issue" or something. But since the PP is way off in this case, I don't trust it for this champioship either. And in the end, all drivers will end up in the same car, and we will have a "one-make" championship. If we want the grid to look diverse, a different PP for each model is what I suggest. 👍

That's fine, but how is making each car a different PP going to even things out? How are we going to know what PP each car needs to make them equal? I'm not doubting it, I'm just honestly curious.

I say 500PP and vehicles with adjustable aerodynamic downforce should be prohibited.

Yes! 👍👍👍👍👍

When was the last time you saw a road-going BMW with a NFS style wing on it?

 

[Denilson]

Thru testing. I agree that it's a bit of a task. But I think that we in the end will end up with the most equal and diverse grid.

Testing should be (to me) at high speed ring. It's an easy circuit to be concistand with, and most corners are high speed. The low speed corner ability is up to each driver to handle when setting up their own suspention.

Just do 15 laps/car. Remove the 3 fastest laps, and the 3 slowest. The rest of the laps (9) is just calculated to give an average lap-time. That's the way to go if you ask me. And if more of us is doing the same tests, we will end up even more accurate. But as I said, it's a bit of a task and not near as easy as just setting one PP for all cars to stay below/at. But I think the hassle is worth it in the end.

 

[GrahamTurismo]

That's a lousy way to go about things. Say you DO figure out exactly what PP the 07 M3 and what PP the CSL should be at to make them exactly even @ HSR. Once you get to a more technical track the CSL will blow the doors off the E92 because it's front end is lighter and handles better. Say you make them perform perfectly equal on a technical track and then go to HSR, the E92 will destroy the CSL because it would have more power with the V8. The way you suggest doing it means we should have to figure out what PP each car should be at for each track we race. That is far too much work and it completely eliminates the point of using PP in the first place. If the PP is set at 500 then all the cars will perform as evenly as possible. If one car has a slight advantage on one course it should be fine... another car will have an advantage on a different course.

 

[cjs959]

Alright I agree with having a standard PP limit for all cars (not individually). If we want to make it more than just the PP system I SUGGEST A HP TO WEIGHT RATIO spec that all cars would have to maintain. This (along with the PP system) would balance every car for every track as best as possible. IMO it's either set regulations just based on a general PP limit for all cars (not individually, combine a PP limit with a HP/weight ratio, or just turn this into a one make spec series (which will NOT happen). I can set up a vote for this topic if you all would like. I don't mind just having a PP limit, but i also wouldn't mind combining a PP limit with a HP/weight ratio spec (and that would be easy, i did about an hour of testing about a week ago and found it pretty easy for all the "premium" M's to have about a 3.6kg/1hp ratio and my lap times in all three cars were within a half a second of each other).

 

[Denilson]

That's a lousy way to go about things. Say you DO figure out exactly what PP the 07 M3 and what PP the CSL should be at to make them exactly even @ HSR. Once you get to a more technical track the CSL will blow the doors off the E92 because it's front end is lighter and handles better. Say you make them perform perfectly equal on a technical track and then go to HSR, the E92 will destroy the CSL because it would have more power with the V8. The way you suggest doing it means we should have to figure out what PP each car should be at for each track we race. That is far too much work and it completely eliminates the point of using PP in the first place. If the PP is set at 500 then all the cars will perform as evenly as possible. If one car has a slight advantage on one course it should be fine... another car will have an advantage on a different course.

Are you kidding me??

If the PP is SIMILAR (not the exact same) the cars will have equal power, equal weight (and if not, the hp/weight ratio is similar). And with the fully adjustable suspention the M3 CSL will not destroy the M3 ´07 because it has "a lighter front end".. That's the most comic statement I've ever heard. Especially since you are only throwing out critics without any alternative solution.

Do the following test, and after that you can say if you still think equal PP makes cars even.
"Try setting the Honda RAYBRING NSX and the Lexus PETRONAS TOM'S SC430 to the same PP rate (600), and do a few laps on any track that suits you. The aero, hp, and weight is wery similar since the cars are based on the same (RL) regulations, but in the game with equal PP the cars are WIDE apart lap-time-wise."

 

[BrosifDuder]

Do the following test, and after that you can say if you still think equal PP makes cars even.
"Try setting the Honda RAYBRING NSX and the Lexus PETRONAS TOM'S SC430 to the same PP rate (600), and do a few laps on any track that suits you. The aero, hp, and weight is wery similar since the cars are based on the same (RL) regulations, but in the game with equal PP the cars are WIDE apart lap-time-wise."

I didn't think we were going to be racing rice. I am in this for the BMWeinersnitzel so I don't really care if your JGTC cars don't match up at 600PP. I have had many great battles when racing street cars and using a specific PP limit as an equalizer for the field.

P.S. Grammatically speaking, Graham's statement was in no way "ironic".

 

[Denilson]

I didn't think we were going to be racing rice. I am in this for the BMWeinersnitzel so I don't really care if your JGTC cars don't match up at 600PP. I have had many great battles when racing street cars and using a specific PP limit as an equalizer for the field.

P.S. Grammatically speaking, Graham's statement was in no way "ironic".

well, it's not about the specific cars I refered to. It's about the PP system is not something I trust. That's all I'm trying to say.

P.S That's the most comic statement I've ever heard. All good?

 

[GrahamTurismo]

Are you kidding me??

If the PP is SIMILAR (not the exact same) the cars will have equal power, equal weight (and if not, the hp/weight ratio is similar). And with the fully adjustable suspention the M3 CSL will not destroy the M3 ´07 because it has "a lighter front end".. That's the most ironic statement I've ever heard.

Maybe you'd have understood it better if I said that the 07 was more front heavy than the CSL? And if you think that a heavy V8 in the front is not going to affect the handling characteristics then yes, I am kidding you, and this is all a dream... go back to your dream world where all cars handle exactly the same.

Especially since you are only throwing out critics without any alternative solution.

PP is the alternative solution. You must have missed that.

Do the following test, and after that you can say if you still think equal PP makes cars even.
"Try setting the Honda RAYBRING NSX and the Lexus PETRONAS TOM'S SC430 to the same PP rate (600), and do a few laps on any track that suits you. The aero, hp, and weight is wery similar since the cars are based on the same (RL) regulations, but in the game with equal PP the cars are WIDE apart lap-time-wise."

There you go using that same example again... and yet you still haven't said which one is faster. You do realize you're comparing an MR car to an FR car right? Again, just because they have the same power and weight doesn't mean they are going to handle identical to one another. The NSX has a very rear biased weight distribution; this affects handling. I would guess that the NSX is normally faster even though I haven't driven either of those cars, but I can assure you that I would personally be faster in the SC430 because I prefer the way FR cars handle.

Based on your really awkward example, if I have an apple and an orange and they are both the same diameter and same weight they should both taste the same.

 

[Denilson]

Maybe you'd have understood it better if I said that the 07 was more front heavy than the CSL? And if you think that a heavy V8 in the front is not going to affect the handling characteristics then yes, I am kidding you, and this is all a dream... go back to your dream world where all cars handle exactly the same.PP is the alternative solution. You must have missed that.There you go using that same example again... and yet you still haven't said which one is faster. You do realize you're comparing an MR car to an FR car right? Again, just because they have the same power and weight doesn't mean they are going to handle identical to one another. The NSX has a very rear biased weight distribution; this affects handling. I would guess that the NSX is normally faster even though I haven't driven either of those cars, but I can assure you that I would personally be faster in the SC430 because I prefer the way FR cars handle.

Based on your really awkward example, if I have an apple and an orange and they are both the same diameter and same weight they should both taste the same.

Try set the XANAVI GT-R and the Lexus PETRONAS TOM'S SC430 to the same PP if you don't belive me.

No need for you to type some of your statements... Would be great if you could just stay to the subject without the: "go back to your dream world where all cars handle exactly the same." and such...

You're taking this WAY to serious man..

 

[Talon]

You're taking this WAY to serious man..

...says the only person who wants to painstakingly test each and every M car in the game on every track we plan to race to make sure they are identical in lap times.

I'm with Egghead on this one, set a PP around 500 and be done with it. Any differences will be settled by driver differences and draft.

 

[Denilson]

I was refering to the way some of us discuss matters. It's like some of us feel offended or something.. Ofc I'm serious about trying to get the grid as even as possible. I think that's why we have this kind of "discusion". And where did I say that we should test the PP for every single track we are racing?

If all of you want to run same PP for all cars, it will not be the end of the world for me.

 

[GrahamTurismo]

Perhaps you aren't taking it serious enough? All cars handle differently. PD takes that seriously, and GT5 reflects it.

 

[cjs959]

GUYS!!!! Your not really helping me here.
Denilson, I understand what your saying and where your coming from...That's why i suggested in a previous post that we have a HP/Weight ratio that works well with all the cars. It would be easy to test and find a fair HP/Weight spec for everyone! I suggest this because the PP system is good but It doesn't do the greatest job with HP/Weight ratio balance between different cars...Actually I'm not sure of what the PP formula is. I just Know from REAL LIFE racing expirience that HP/Weight ratio is the best way to do it.

Basically, I see both sides of your argument. But i need you guys to help me figure this kinda 🤬 out!!!

I'll be done B-specing in a few minutes, If you guys would like I can open up a lobby and we can do some testing/messing around.

 

[Talon]

I'll be there. 👍

Denilson, someone threw out the idea of doing testing for every track, thought it was you, guess it wasn't. Sorry. Anyway... Whatever we decide, we will all be driving M cars, some of the best in the world, so not much can go wrong.

 

[GrahamTurismo]

I'm already there. Room is called ///M Power GTP.

1472 6118 4130 9220 1142

Room closed. At least Bimmerboy showed up.

 

[Denilson]

Yes. HP/weight is a good complement to the PP. I'd say it's a must. Because if we "just" set a PP for cars to stick to, the handling and performance will be wery different from car to car.

And we should really aim to get the weight as close to eachother as possible. So weightreduction for the CSL is not an upgrade we should use, and on the other hand, an engine tune is not something the M5 shoud have.. Try to get the weight between 1400-1500 kg would be great. And then use the HP limiter to get as close hp/weight as possible. (don't know if the M5 can get down to 1500kg tho)

 

[BIMMERBOY96]

...says the only person who wants to painstakingly test each and every M car in the game on every track we plan to race to make sure they are identical in lap times.

I'm with Egghead on this one, set a PP around 500 and be done with it. Any differences will be settled by driver differences and draft.

I argee with Talon, set up a limit of 500 PP and be done with it. Besides, isn't racing about who is the fastest driver, and not always the best machine. If you guys are so worried that an E46 M3 CSL is a half-second faster than an E92 M3 around a certain circuit, create your own M3 CSL league. Different drivers will have different amounts of skill here and I believe that will more then make up for that little half-second you guys are arguing about. That's my two cents.