- 101
- redcouch1
Its unnecessary reguardless. The game runs fine without this wouldnt anyone say?
BMW M League anyone interested???
- Thread starter cjs959
- 382 comments
- 16,345 views
Its unnecessary reguardless. The game runs fine without this wouldnt anyone say?
- 1,619
- The Mitten
- BrosifDuder
Rewards weight is a great idea. 👍
We could also ban the CSL, obviously, since it easily the fastest car.
Nope!
Well ACO GT cars may start as bodies in white but they are in no way a street car. And if you really want to try and convince everyone that SuperGT cars are street cars then I will sit back and watch, laugh, eat some za, drink a beer... you get the point.
The OP is going to allow Traction Control so turn it up to 10 if you can't control wheelspin with your right foot. Oh and my Z4 M Coupe only has 380 HP @ 500PP.
Just thought it might add a little FUN realism to the race...I race IRL, I don't think I've ever been threw an entire race without at least one caution (no I don't race anything in any way similar to NASCAR/Stock cars).
Redcouch,
In your test the Z4M was at least 20 PP behind the next car. I did a similar test with all three new M's (M5,M3,Z4m) with them all set right at 520 PP. My test results were a lot closer than yours... All three cars were within a half a second of each other (off-line).
NO THE CSL WILL NOT BE BANNED.
In your test the Z4M was at least 20 PP behind the next car. I did a similar test with all three new M's (M5,M3,Z4m) with them all set right at 520 PP. My test results were a lot closer than yours... All three cars were within a half a second of each other (off-line).
NO THE CSL WILL NOT BE BANNED.
- 101
- redcouch1
Well Brosif, wereas you might think you're pretty clever with your responses you still dont have any point or arguement to why we should use the Sport Tires. "They are street cars" holds as much value as me saying SuperGT cars are street cars(since you didnt catch my sarcastic corolation). At 500PP, the HP upgrades on these cars are tapped or almost tapped(depending on the car), and the weight reduction they arent in their street car form. I guess what I'm trying to say is do you understand why tires and power have a direct relation? Just because these cars dont have wide body kits doesnt mean they need to use Sport Tires, or that their chassis have been heavily modified, thats completely irrational. So the car you have weakest in power has 380, what about the M3s? Bottom line is we are outfitting them with more power, they need more grip, they need Racing Hards.
- 101
- redcouch1
If you dont mind exaggerating you're tests, I'd like to see more information. You're right in the fact that my Z4M had 20PP less that the other two(roughly), but are you implying that 20PP will make a car 2.5 seconds faster? I can turn down the other cars 20PP easily, but I dont see them slowing down THAT much. How can I say though, I'll give it a try later today and let you know how it went.
- 1,619
- The Mitten
- BrosifDuder
- 101
- redcouch1
If you say so. Its not like I really really want the Racing Hards, its just 450 or 500HP is always acompanied by those tires. Sport Softs are the next step down anyway so its probably not that bad, but you at least have a valid arguement if you infact did test out the tires. Anyone currently following this thread today wanna start a small practice session?
- 101
- redcouch1
... Ya. I'm jsut asking him to post all the details so I can compare the different setups and results. Relax.
I had all three cars as close to stock as possible. I DIDNT touch suspension (having a fully adjustable suspension on a car and leaving it at default is about as pointless as it can get. Fully adjustable suspensions even left at default can change the charactoristics of the car...thus ruining your base tests). No transmission, drivetrain upgrades because these also ruining your base. All three cars were on sports hard tires.I only allowed my self to do power and weight mods to reach an even PP for the cars. I ran all three cars at suzuka east, can't remember specific lap times (they are saved though in my time trials) but I remember there only being a second difference between the fastest and slowest cars. What tracks are you doing this on??? Are you on a non technical track that you know like the back of your hand. And are putting down 10 laps and averaging them out or are you just looking at your best time in each car.
Brosif not a good Idea to aggrivate the guy thats trying to run a racing series (Especially when hes trying to leave the door open to YOU, for input on how to run the series). You've lost all creditability to me.
And sorry Redcouch, i have to get going any minute here so i can't get on line for some testing at the moment...perhaps later on this evening??
And sorry Redcouch, i have to get going any minute here so i can't get on line for some testing at the moment...perhaps later on this evening??
I also never said anything about the voting DETERMINING how the PP system was going to be. I was the only one that voted for the PP plus HP/Weight ratio specs (which i believe to be the MOST fair). The vote was just so i could clearly see how everyone following this thread felt. Yes since the majority of the votes are for a general PP cap I am heavily considering that. But since I want a PP cap along with a HP/Weight spec (which would be very similar to individually setting PP limits for the cars) I am considering that option as well. I am trying to take everyones input into consideration on almost all subjects, but like someone said in an earlier post I won't be able to make EVERYONE happy, and it's my league so the final verdict on the issues (although, EVERYONE's input will be seriously considered) comes down to me.
- 101
- redcouch1
Ya in the quote I stated it was at Indy Road Course. I know this course well, it was in round 3 of GTA last week, the top times being 1:40 lows(I ran a 1:40.5xx) in the Nissan 370Z Tuned(everyone uses same car no tuning), so I'd say I know this course pretty well and there wasn't any general track learning that would affect the progression in times(just had to learn the car). I spent about a half hour on each of the 3 cars and accompanied by the times I posted I had 2 or 3 sister times that were only thousandths of a seconds off, meaning they were consistant times.
Just cause you put on full adjust suspension and dont move it doesnt mean its the same as stock. Take those same cars you used, put on the suspension and take another drive. Don't look for your times to change but notice how the car behaves around the turns, its different. And I also disagree about how you tested the cars because they were all left at stock. Not saying you're tests are illegitamite, I believe you did proper testing, but it becomes irrelivant if you dont use the same constants we will most likely be using in the league(i.e. the suspension you left out, the tranny upgrades you left out, etc.). Say with the stock suspension they all ran close to even, but when you change the characteristics with the full adjust suspension some cars may gain alot more than the others based on weaknesses. Its funny cause like I concluded in my test post, the CSL handled properly, and the M3 07 handled like crap, and Z4M handled almost as good as the CSL, but why isnt the M3 07 the slowest car by 2.5 seconds instead of the Z4? All these things come out after you put on the upgrades, so thats why you're test had different results. Its still useful though, its gunna take more than one test to learn if a car is completely noncompetitive. I planned on more testing but you guys all want to jsut go with 500PP, so I say go ahead. Unfortunatly I've done the testing, so I know which car has the most potential and which car will most likely be blowing away the competition.
Thats the problem with this multicar format, its so easy for one car to be so dominate. Theoretically, you want one car to be dominate on one track, and another on a different track, so that way its more fun and competitive(not one sided). I notice these one make one car leagues seem to get along pretty well, thats because everyone knows all the cars are equal. Here, we are just putting trust in a PP system wiht little to no knowledge of it. We could either roll the dice with the PP system, or we could find out for ourselves what it takes to make things even. Everyone is impatient, we might as well "test" with a small season.
Just cause you put on full adjust suspension and dont move it doesnt mean its the same as stock. Take those same cars you used, put on the suspension and take another drive. Don't look for your times to change but notice how the car behaves around the turns, its different. And I also disagree about how you tested the cars because they were all left at stock. Not saying you're tests are illegitamite, I believe you did proper testing, but it becomes irrelivant if you dont use the same constants we will most likely be using in the league(i.e. the suspension you left out, the tranny upgrades you left out, etc.). Say with the stock suspension they all ran close to even, but when you change the characteristics with the full adjust suspension some cars may gain alot more than the others based on weaknesses. Its funny cause like I concluded in my test post, the CSL handled properly, and the M3 07 handled like crap, and Z4M handled almost as good as the CSL, but why isnt the M3 07 the slowest car by 2.5 seconds instead of the Z4? All these things come out after you put on the upgrades, so thats why you're test had different results. Its still useful though, its gunna take more than one test to learn if a car is completely noncompetitive. I planned on more testing but you guys all want to jsut go with 500PP, so I say go ahead. Unfortunatly I've done the testing, so I know which car has the most potential and which car will most likely be blowing away the competition.
Thats the problem with this multicar format, its so easy for one car to be so dominate. Theoretically, you want one car to be dominate on one track, and another on a different track, so that way its more fun and competitive(not one sided). I notice these one make one car leagues seem to get along pretty well, thats because everyone knows all the cars are equal. Here, we are just putting trust in a PP system wiht little to no knowledge of it. We could either roll the dice with the PP system, or we could find out for ourselves what it takes to make things even. Everyone is impatient, we might as well "test" with a small season.
- 101
- redcouch1
I think I could test the 3 cars I got with very close weight and power, reguardless of PP, and see how things go and let you know. Now that I have a good idea of what each car is capable of, I can get some better and mroe accurate results.
Oh BTW later this evening I'll be busy, so I'll just get back to you with my latest test in a few days. In the meantime I think we should continue getting the rules and format worked out and hopefully have a sort of preseason race/test next weekend. I say weekend, I like to have the race on Saturday or Sunday as my vote, very busy in the weekdays(fulltime job, 3+ hours traffic, gym and exercise, etc).
Last edited:
Yes those may be good points about my testing, I still disagree with the Fully adjust suspension for testing for a few reasons though. Yes you do make a good point about the suspension but just adding the sport suspensions before you jump to the fully adjust i think would be better (and that was my next step). You have to progress up with these kinda things during testing so you can note the differences.
Sorry I shouldn't have used the word "stock". They weren't stock, i used that word in reference to the drivetrain and suspension. In the Z4m i had to add a LOT of HP to it, In the M3 i had to add a little HP, and the M5 i couldn't really touch because it was already the highest PP. While I was adding to the Z4m and the M3 i was strickly paying attention to the HP/Weight ratio and trying to keep that the same amonst all three cars.
Indy is definetly a HP biased track, that may very well be why the Z4m was slacking there in your test. This is good to know since i was doing my testing on a smaller more monentum biased track (suzuka East).
You and I have deffinetly got differnet "way" of testing but it has been useful info.
- 101
- redcouch1
I'll credit everything you said, but Indy Road Course isnt a high speed, HP based track. Its has a long straight, yes, but the hairpins and long sweeping corners do favor more toward the Z4M. Suzuka East I believe to be on the far end of the spectrum to be more of a technical handling track, but thats just from looking at it(I've driven on it, but I havent fully learned it the way I have Indy Road Course, Cape Ring, Rome Reverse, etc). I liked the testing on Indy for me, its a bit technical but not too hard to get a good lap like a super technical track would be, making the laps being tested as consistant as possible.
Also I should note that in the tests, the braking points for the cars were particularly different. The CSL had the latest braking point at the end of the long straight. The Z4M and M3 07 braking points were a bit back, about 2 or 3 car lengths I could imagine. Interesting, considering you would think the Z4M being the lightest car would have a braking point like the CSL. Just goes to show how dominate the CSL is(not the mention the GTR which I still need to find in the car lot).
Also I should note that in the tests, the braking points for the cars were particularly different. The CSL had the latest braking point at the end of the long straight. The Z4M and M3 07 braking points were a bit back, about 2 or 3 car lengths I could imagine. Interesting, considering you would think the Z4M being the lightest car would have a braking point like the CSL. Just goes to show how dominate the CSL is(not the mention the GTR which I still need to find in the car lot).
- 101
- redcouch1
M3 CSL 03 1:33.585
468HP/8800rpm-1385kg-PP529
M3 Coupe 07 1:34.428
520HP/9100rpm-1408kg-PP534
Z4 M Coupe 08 1:36.024
443HP/8500rpm-1375kg-PP512
Note from this testing the Z4M and CSL are pretty similar power and weight wise. 20 more HP could improve the Z4M time, not by 2.5 seconds though. Then theres the M3 07, you know if I take off 60-80HP, the weight being close enough, that thats jsut gunna make the performance of the CSL even more superior over the newer Ms.
468HP/8800rpm-1385kg-PP529
M3 Coupe 07 1:34.428
520HP/9100rpm-1408kg-PP534
Z4 M Coupe 08 1:36.024
443HP/8500rpm-1375kg-PP512
Note from this testing the Z4M and CSL are pretty similar power and weight wise. 20 more HP could improve the Z4M time, not by 2.5 seconds though. Then theres the M3 07, you know if I take off 60-80HP, the weight being close enough, that thats jsut gunna make the performance of the CSL even more superior over the newer Ms.
HAHA just baught my GTR today!!!!
Yes those are good points countering Indy being a HP track, But those technical corners that require heavy breaking also require HP to accelerate out of them, that combined with the long strait makes Indy a HP biased track...It's very similar to Brainerd International Raceway (both of which i've been on in real life). How "technical" a track is doesn't necessarily determine whether it's a HP or Momentum track (many Momentum tracks are also very technical). Sorry if i sound like I'm consistantly trying to argue with you here, not trying to sound like I am.
Yes those are good points countering Indy being a HP track, But those technical corners that require heavy breaking also require HP to accelerate out of them, that combined with the long strait makes Indy a HP biased track...It's very similar to Brainerd International Raceway (both of which i've been on in real life). How "technical" a track is doesn't necessarily determine whether it's a HP or Momentum track (many Momentum tracks are also very technical). Sorry if i sound like I'm consistantly trying to argue with you here, not trying to sound like I am.
Very nice, i did the math... your Z4 has got a healthy advantage to the others as far as HP/weight.
I basically don't know what to say, all I can come up with is the different tracks we are testing on. I would suggest trying another track. I'm not trying to trump the results you have just posted, I just suspect that the Z4 will have an advantage on a tighter track.
- 101
- redcouch1
I dont know man, for me its about getting the car to rotate under power in the proper manner when linking the combination turns at Indy. The thing is about that track is the technical sections have no banking and is always flat expect for end of the lap which is really just the banking of the circle track. It may not be a momentum track, but it definately hinders the cars that cant handle because you get no camber in the turns. Its a more neutral track; Cape Ring, High Speed Ring, Monza, those are HP tracks.
I dont mind your arguements, you are very sensible.
I dont mind your arguements, you are very sensible.
- 766
- Canada
- nastradamus87
I didn't see a day of the week or time of day for the races anywhere in the thread. Has this been decided?
PSN ID: nastradamus87
I use a Logitech G27 and am intermediate in driving skill. Please add me to the list if there is room. I will come out for practice sessions as well.
If I were to have any say in the leagues regulations, I would try and keep the cars close to their stock performance and use sport hard tires (sport medium at most).
The following chart shows that sport hard tires are closest to stock performance for the M3 Coupe '07:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AipuTV3-ziGWdFpsNGhRQmQ5dWNmSjF2NlNsRXNsVWc&hl=en&authkey=CKnHn5AM#gid=0
PSN ID: nastradamus87
I use a Logitech G27 and am intermediate in driving skill. Please add me to the list if there is room. I will come out for practice sessions as well.
If I were to have any say in the leagues regulations, I would try and keep the cars close to their stock performance and use sport hard tires (sport medium at most).
The following chart shows that sport hard tires are closest to stock performance for the M3 Coupe '07:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AipuTV3-ziGWdFpsNGhRQmQ5dWNmSjF2NlNsRXNsVWc&hl=en&authkey=CKnHn5AM#gid=0
- 101
- redcouch1
That's kinda the problem, some cars will not be very close to stock, others will. We're trying to find the best way to go about this at the moment.
- 101
- redcouch1
Any track you want, preferably something you know pretty well. I just want to see how your results change on another track. I will be testing in about 5 minutes.
- 101
- redcouch1
Yes for sure.
Similar threads
