BMW M League anyone interested???

[cjs959]

An update for everyone...
I spent the better half of the day yesterday testing with almost all the M cars. Basically what I've found is that the PP IMO works pretty well.
I did two sets of tests with all of the M's in my garage ('08 M5, '07 M3 Coupe, '08 Z4 M Coupe, '03 M3 GTR, '03 M3 CSL, '98 M Coupe)

The first test I did using my hp/lb theory, I didn't work very well. The Z4 M and '98 M Coupe got left way behind.
The second test was using the PP system with all of my cars modded to 516PP (the PP level of a stock '08 M5). The cars in this test were very well balanced. Yes, the M3 CSL did stand out a little. The '98 M Coupe was the slowest (for those of you who wanted to know). All the rest were very even.
I'm not going to ban any car, that's out of the question. Personally, I'm fine with how the PP system works. Maybe the CSL is just cleary the best M for the track. I might be open to a weight/PP penalty of some sort for the CSL. But I would rather not penalize any car.No there won't be ANY PENALTIES FOR WINNING A RACE. Even though they do it in SuperGT, it's something i strongly disagree with (why penalize the best drivers???).
I think a PP limit 520-525 sounds pretty good.
The only mods I think shouldn't be allowed are... Any drivetrain (clutch, Carbon driveshaft, LSD, Flywheel), no wings (splitters, and lip spoilers i think are ok), No trasmission mods.
Allowable mods would be about anything else within PP limit.

 

[cjs959]

We could runa practice race wednesday night with a few 10 lap races at different tracks with a PP limit and all of us on the same tires (I suggest sports soft). Although, the only thing I think we will learn from this is who's the best driver (not implying that I am). Would be fun regardless.

 

[GrahamTurismo]

The "newer" M's will never be M's to me.. To heavy.. And yes, I'm thinking about the CSL. But I still want the grid to be as equal as possible but still diverse. I was thinking about using the Z3 M Coupe, but the one I tested above was as high as I could get as far as PP goes. Will a wing add PP? If not, or not enough, I guess the Z3 M Coupe is to slow for this Championship which is a shame since that car is just awsome IRL! Something that really bothers me is the fact that the CSL is equipped with the standard 19" wheels that comes with the standard Coupe. The wheels that the GTR got is the correct model for the CSL as well.. It's a detail, but I really hate that PD did miss that! The magnesium 19" wheels are lightweight wheels and shoul ofc be equipped on the CSL since that's where they came from. I might go with the GTR, but I need to paint is Saphire schwartz if I'm going to use it 👍

I agree. The meaning of ///M died in about 2006 as far as I'm concerned.

Yes, adding downforce will increase your PP. Put a wing on it and max the downforce... see if you can get it any closer in performance.

I also noticed the incorrect wheels on the CSL. Shame really. I was also really looking forward to at least one E46 getting a premium treatment... maybe for GT6.

No there won't be ANY PENALTIES FOR WINNING A RACE. Even though they do it in SuperGT, it's something i strongly disagree with (why penalize the best drivers???).

You say that now, but if someone walks the entire field and wins with a 20+ second gap you might think a little different.

I think a PP limit 520-525 sounds pretty good.
The only mods I think shouldn't be allowed are... Any drivetrain (clutch, Carbon driveshaft, LSD, Flywheel), no wings (splitters, and lip spoilers i think are ok), No trasmission mods.
Allowable mods would be about anything else within PP limit.

Well there goes that wing idea for the Z3M. Maybe only allow a wing on that car? Also, I still think the PP should be a nice even 500. Yes the M5 would have to use ballast to get there... but setting it somewhere towards the middle of all the cars will not only give the cars on the low end a better chance, but also the fewer PP the CSL can add on the better. 👍

 

[BrosifDuder]

Just for fun...

Who here owns or has owned an M?

I currently have a two E36 M3s, a '95 coupe (obviously) and a '99 convertible, manual transmission of course.

I previously owned an '88 M3 that I bought from a police auction sans drivetrain. I built a 6-cylinder from parts I had lying around and drove that through high school. That car got me in a lot of trouble.

I owned an '87 M6 for about a week then someone made me an offer I couldn't refuse. I hadn't even transfered the title to my name yet so it was a win win situation.


Sorry if this upsets the OP. I'm not trying to hijack the thread, I just thought it might be nice to know what our fellow enthusiasts are driving/cleaning/storing.

 

[cjs959]

I also had an 88 M3 in high school!!!Haha. Red, left it untouched (it was pretty much mint). I sold it about six years ago when I went to college in Montana thinking I would only get to drive it 2-3 months a year (the money from it helped me as well). That was one of the biggest mistakes of my young life so far! When I got settled in in MT I darted to quickly to notice of all the mountain roads I could have had that car on, not to mention how extremely relaxed the cops were about enforcing any speed limits ( I got pulled over 3 times over 100, no tickets though).
Now A days I drive a 96 911 Carrera S (owned by my dad) about 6-7 weekends a year in the PCA. It's completely built for the track. He usually fly's by me on the straights in his 06 911 GT3 Cup Car. Wish he would let me drive that thing.

 

[Nastradamus87]

I just finished reading the entire thread and though cjs959 would appreciate some feedback.

To cjs959 and everyone else who has helped him test, thank you for your hard work. You guys really are putting in a lot of effort! I hope to get out there with you guys soon.


* Damage:
I support the use of "heavy damage" for our races. Note that a pit-stops repair damage, so light damage from a rear end collision or rubbing won't put you out of the race entirely.


* Tires:
In my mind, sport hard or sport medium tires are the most appropriate for these cars. (Keep in mind that sport tires are semi-slicks and racing tires are full slicks.) If the organizers want to go with better tires that's their prerogative, but I personally believe that tires less than sport soft will make for the most fun.

For example, last Saturday I organized the following races for me and my friends (all aids off except abs):
1) 515 PP FR car on sport hard tires
Most people (including myself) drive the M5. It was great fun and I had no problem keeping it on the road (at Autumn Ring).

2) 580 PP Ferrari's on sport soft tires
Everyone drove the Italia. It was not hard to corner with at all. You could spin it out rather easily by hammering it out of the corner's exit, but that is to be expected.

My point is, sport soft tires give a Ferrari Italia good handling, so they are probably over-kill for our M cars. Sport medium tires might be a good choice as well if we want to minimize the risk of collisions.
This is just my 2 cents. I'm not trying to be forceful or anything like that.


I'll add more comments when I have time. Got to run.

 

[redcouch1212]

Just to coment cjs, the penalty system isnt intended to punish the best driver, its to punish the best car. If you watched the SuperGT races they had available to watch on GT5P, you would have seen how friggin dominate the new Nissan GTRs were against the entire field(similar to how the CSL or M3 GTR might be). Due to our circumstances we could definately benifit from that penalty system, but for some reason I'm not too interested with it and wouldnt mind not useing it.

BTW I dont own an M, but because of my job I drive Astons and Lambos every day. I like Ms though, wouldnt mind owning one.

 

[Talon]

The only mods I think shouldn't be allowed are... Any drivetrain (clutch, Carbon driveshaft, LSD, Flywheel), no wings (splitters, and lip spoilers i think are ok), No trasmission mods.

That's... not really fair at all. Not all premiums have the option to install a front splitter, and none of the standards do. Whoever picked a car with the option of a front splitter would have the huge advantage of front downforce.

 

[redcouch1212]

That's... not really fair at all. Not all premiums have the option to install a front splitter, and none of the standards do. Whoever picked a car with the option of a front splitter would have the huge advantage of front downforce.

What makes you think its a huge advantage? What proof do you have I mean.

And no transmission mods? As in no racing transmissions? I think I see how you guys want to drive stockish cars, but we really need to be able to adjust the final drive on some of these cars for different tracks.

 

[cjs959]

Ya thought about the tranny restriction for a while. My stand point is that a fully adjustable tranny is something you'll only see on race car IRL. You never see club racers out there with fully adjustable transmissions. The only reason we really have to have a fully adjustable tranny is to just have another parameter to gain an edge on the competition. With a fully adjustable suspension (for those who choose to use it) there should be plenty of room to gain an edge (depending on your tuning talents) on the competition while at the same time keeping things pretty fair.
That's my opinion anyway.

 

[Talon]

What makes you think its a huge advantage? What proof do you have I mean.

Really?

Have you ever driven a street car before and after adding a front splitter in this game? And on street tires? I didn't think I would need proof for this point.

 

[BrosifDuder]

Really?

Have you ever driven a street car before and after adding a front splitter in this game? And on street tires? I didn't think I would need proof for this point.

Lol. Now you know my pain.

 

[cjs959]

That's... not really fair at all. Not all premiums have the option to install a front splitter, and none of the standards do. Whoever picked a car with the option of a front splitter would have the huge advantage of front downforce.

The aero mods aren't really the biggest concern for me... you do raise a good point and maybe it's best to leave aero out of it. I have a lot of ideas and every once in awhile i have a good idea (this ties into my everyday life as well).

 

[redcouch1212]

Lol. Now you know my pain.

You guys really havent proven anything, so its just another hypothetic opinion scattered umongst a forum. Not to mention at 500PP and the mods allowed, these arent street cars(were ever that extremely vague definition may lie lol) anymore, and sport softs wouldnt be considered street tires since that would make comfort tires plastic shells to be fair to your designated porportions of tire simulation. So its not just the fact that you bring no evidence to the table, you just plain dont make enough sense to have a strong arguement. Stick with the fact that its not fair that some of the cars can have splitters fitted and some cant, you had a point there.

Speaking of "pain", its really easy to get heated when using a forum, I sugguest you guys relax and just stick to trying to be productive instead of splitting every hair there is to be plucked from creating this league. I have no beef with anyone here, I'd rather colaborate.

cjs, I'd say you're right when most, if not all, people in clubs dont have full race adjustable transmissions fitted to their cars, but they do change their final ratios. So to be true to what you are aiming for as this league being a reflection of a real life club, you have to be able to change your final gear. So I sugguest we go with the fully adjustable transmission, or whatever else that lets you change the final gear. Don't read too much into it anyways, I doubt anyone will gain any advantage when messing with the individual gears; most likely do more harm than good for some people.

 

[Nastradamus87]

I agree with Talon's point on the splitters. It might be for the better if aero parts are not allowed.

As for the fully adjustable transmission, I would be happy in any case. I see cjs959's point about the realism and that makes sense. On the other hand, it is frustrating when you just barely run out of gear on several straights. If it were to come down to a vote I would say "no" to allowing any transmission upgrades I suppose.

You guys really havent proven anything, so its just another hypothetic opinion scattered umongst a forum. Not to mention at 500PP and the mods allowed, these arent street cars(were ever that extremely vague definition may lie lol) anymore, and sport softs wouldnt be considered street tires since that would make comfort tires plastic shells to be fair to your designated porportions of tire simulation. So its not just the fact that you bring no evidence to the table, you just plain dont make enough sense to have a strong arguement. Stick with the fact that its not fair that some of the cars can have splitters fitted and some cant, you had a point there.

Speaking of "pain", its really easy to get heated when using a forum, I sugguest you guys relax and just stick to trying to be productive instead of splitting every hair there is to be plucked from creating this league. I have no beef with anyone here, I'd rather colaborate.

cjs, I'd say you're right when most, if not all, people in clubs dont have full race adjustable transmissions fitted to their cars, but they do change their final ratios. So to be true to what you are aiming for as this league being a reflection of a real life club, you have to be able to change your final gear. So I sugguest we go with the fully adjustable transmission, or whatever else that lets you change the final gear. Don't read too much into it anyways, I doubt anyone will gain any advantage when messing with the individual gears; most likely do more harm than good for some people.

Good points!

I would like to say that "sport" tires in GT5 are not street tires, they are semi-slicks (still road legal but the grip levels are somewhere near a road legal slick tire), like the sort used on track day cars. In any case, we could fill this entire thread with tire talk so I won't bring it up again.

In case you are looking for proof or just want some good tire resources see the two links below:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showth...=6#post4729193

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showth...=5#post4638146

 

[Nastradamus87]

Double post. Sorry

 

[redcouch1212]

Thanks Nastradamus. I agree with that analogy, comforts are like street tires, sports are like DOT slicks, and racings are like racing slicks of course.

Oh, and jsut for the sake of it my friends, I went into GT5 tonight to do a bit of investigating, and turns out not all the cars I used in my tests had splitters put on them. In fact, the M3 07 and Z4M had splitters during the test, and CSL didnt have a splitter. So ya, like I said, without proof you really dont have a point. The fastest car tested had no splitter, the slowest car did, and if anything thats a good thing to help handicap the slower cars. :/

 

[Nastradamus87]

For the splitter, to see the difference it makes simply run the same car with it on and off for a few laps. I would myself but I have to hit the sack.

Do you guys think it would be a good idea to start looking at a ballpark day of the week and time of day for the events? I would hate for them to occur when I'm at work or in the middle of the night due to my time zone difference (MST). We could decide on a standard time zone and in this time zone all post what time we can race. We could also have a poll.

 

[redcouch1212]

Heh, those Toyo Proxes are considered DOT slicks. DOT slick simply means its a semi slick that passes DOT regulations meaning its OKed for street use. Split hairs if you must, but they are really the same thing. Sports are racing compound with grooves, that better?

 

[Denilson]

I'm in if that was not obvious..

PSN: chorda
Car: CSL or GTR

 

[GrahamTurismo]

So I sugguest we go with the fully adjustable transmission, or whatever else that lets you change the final gear. Don't read too much into it anyways, I doubt anyone will gain any advantage when messing with the individual gears; most likely do more harm than good for some people.

All M cars are supposed to be electronically limited to 155 mph (250kph). Wether this is true in the game or not, I don't know. If it turns out to be the case, then we would all suffer equally on the straights... so I say keep em stock. A race transmission can be a pretty big advantage to those who know how to use it properly, and as you mentioned; harmful to those that don't know what they're doing.

 

[Denilson]

All M cars are supposed to be electronically limited to 155 mph (250kph). Wether this is true in the game or not, I don't know. If it turns out to be the case, then we would all suffer equally on the straights... so I say keep em stock. A race transmission can be a pretty big advantage to those who know how to use it properly, and as you mentioned; harmful to those that don't know what they're doing.

My M3 is limited to 275 km/h from the factory. I now for a fact that I can reach 275. But 275 km/h on the speedo might be translated to 260-265 km/h when reading from a GPS.

And the cars are not limited to any speed in GT5.

It was a mutual agreement among the German manufactors since the "HP-war" made the cars become like rockets in the past few years. I believe that the first speed regulated car (because of the "HP-war") came out in the end of the 90's or the beginning of the 00's. Not 100% sure tho...

 

[cjs959]

Just to coment cjs, the penalty system isnt intended to punish the best driver, its to punish the best car. If you watched the SuperGT races they had available to watch on GT5P, you would have seen how friggin dominate the new Nissan GTRs were against the entire field(similar to how the CSL or M3 GTR might be). Due to our circumstances we could definately benifit from that penalty system, but for some reason I'm not too interested with it and wouldnt mind not useing it.

BTW I dont own an M, but because of my job I drive Astons and Lambos every day. I like Ms though, wouldnt mind owning one.

You may have miss interprepted what i was trying to say (or i didn't word it clearly enough). I may have gotten confused on what you were suggesting about a weight penalty. I'll reiterate what i said in a post just yesterday. I might be open to a weight penalty for the CSL, or any "dominant" car (which is penalizing a car). Drivers will not be penalized for winning races (which is penalizing drivers).[/U]I don't know much about the Super GT series and was under the impression that the winning drivers got a weight penalty for the next race (this is what i thought you were refering to).

I would like to have some practice races tomorrow evening. I suggest that anyone interested and available to join purchase whatever variety of mods you would like so that we all can easily Install/uninstall things to adjust our PP. I would say to go ahead and get a fully adjustable tranny (if you don't already have one) but that we do not use them for the first few races. We'll all play around with different PP settings for different races (same tires for everyone) and we'll see if we learn anything from it. Now, this isn't the best way to test for balancing all the cars (everyone is a different driving skill). These practice races will help us all determine a good PP level to run with the field.
I'm going to open a seperate thread for voting only, on that thread i will have various polls for all these details we have been debating...I see that we have nearly 16 people signed up (I know that not everyone will show up), but there's deffinetly enough interest to get things going.
I would like to run the league on Wednesday or Thursday evenings, weekends could work but my schedule on weekends is pretty inconsistant where on Wednesday or Thursday i have nothing to do really after work. Some of you may be used to using GMT from other leagues. If your not familiar with GMT just google it. Tomorrow and Thursday I'll have a lobby open at about 2:00 GMT (that's using the 24 hour clock).

 

[cjs959]

The voting thread is up (i forgot to set a timer on the vote on this thread). The polls on the voting thread will only last about 1-2 days so act quick. I would like to get the series started next week.

Here's the link, I also added this link to my OP so you don't have to find this post next time you want to get to the voting thread.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=5014520#post5014520

 

[redcouch1212]

I can do thrusdays, but I'd much rather do weekends. And how are we gunna do qualifying?

 

[cjs959]

I was thinking of just haveing a 10 minute qualifying session before the race (free drive). I would like to do something like a 5-10 minute practice session followed immediatly by a 10 minute qualifying session. What are the other options (kinda knew to "formal" on line racing). Is there options in the lobby to adjust for qualifying??

 

[redcouch1212]

I like the free drive qualifying idea. I've seen other people do it were you qualify on a previous date with an official(i.e. you cjs) watching the lap, but it seems so complicated. In my opinion, the best thing to do to keep peoples interest is to do the free drive qualifying, that way its one date, one time, one comitment.

I hope PD gets this game setup with youtube hotlap replays, that would make qualifying very easy because participants could jsut set a lap on their schedule and be able to show proof of no foul play in the lap.

 

[redcouch1212]

OK, tonight I did one last bit of testing. Might do some more with more cars, but my time has run out for tonight and I wont have time to do more testing for a while.

Rome Reverse
Sport Softs

M3 CSL 03 1:11.563
439HP-1385kg-521PP

M3 Coupe 07 1:11.925
460HP-1375kg-518PP

Z4 M Coupe 08 1:12.418
445HP-1375kg-513PP

All cars have full adjust suspension, full adjust racing trannys, twin plate clutch, semi-racing flywheel, adjustable LSD, CF drive shaft, and chassis reinforcement(thsoe strut brace bar things). Splitters were fitted when available(yes on M3 and Z, not on CSL). To save myself time, on the M3 07 I used ballast to match the weight of the Z4M. All the weight and power upgrades were individually applied and tweaked per car, and will release the information if need be later on(its alot of stuff to write right now). Final drives and suspension setups were left to default and not touched in any shape or form.

Those three laps posted were all very solid laps in each car. Rome Reverse is a bit tricky, and hitting the blind left before the long straight mid way through the lap is what makes or breaks a good time. Honestly theres only tenths to gain from those times depending on how perfect you nail a perfect lap, so I consider these results to be pretty consistant and reliable. However, the CSL, as always, handled wonderfully and was super easy to set a solid lap, wereas the M3 07 and Z4M had the usual understeer. So theoretically with a tune the the two slower cars have the defiante potential to post closer times to the CSL. If you ask me, the way I set up these cars weights, power, and mods make them about equal in porformance. The reason the CSL shines every time is because at default it handles so neutral and the others have too much understeer. From this test I would say even PP or even weight/power could work for this league, but it could be in the way I set up the mods. Either way, throw in the fact that we will be racing endurance races with these slippery sports softs, and its going to come down more to the driver than the car in my opinion. I say lets race them with the regulations I have designated in this test.

 

[Nastradamus87]

I would like to run the league on Wednesday or Thursday evenings

What times of day are you considering? I would really like to know if our time zones are close enough for me to participate.

The events must start between 2:00am and 5:00am GMT for me to be able to make it.

My time zone is MST (GMT subtract 7 hours).

 

[DCerinza]

Wednesday at 2 GMT works for me, but works better if is at 1 GMT

Thank you

DiegoC