- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
Brake fade
- Thread starter kitty_racer
- 131 comments
- 9,604 views
- 331
- Addison, TX
- MX5_Racer_69
I think that's more for long distance endurance races. But yeah. Cool video. Dang ball players have all the fun. I would give anything to be able to race in that series. Maybe someday.
Nobody has mentioned using different brake compounds in the pads. I guess the assumption is that all the car have high temp brake fluid and brake pads by default? Otherwise, when you took that car from the dealer and put it on the track, you'd lose your brakes in about 15 minutes.
- 422
- Eastern MA
- Odin_Wednesday
Improving stopping distance, especially on stickier-than-stock tires where it's harder to lock them up.
I've assumed that, and I think it would be a stupid waste of time piece of busy work to make us execute that upgrade manually.
- 1,007
- Jakarta
- Normalaatsra
I wonder if Brembo will be supporting the braking physics for GT6.
Together with KW Suspension and Yokohama, it becomes the real Axis power simulator.
Together with KW Suspension and Yokohama, it becomes the real Axis power simulator.
- 2,095
- Burke, Fairfax,
- GTP_STRIKER
- Xbox SUCKS
More than likely when you get the car from the dealer it will have stock setting in the brakes, with the upgrade the change will happen. Though wont know or understand how it will work until we get our hands on it. Are there any XBOX One games coming out on the 6th? Looking forward to a midnight midnight release so I can grab mine 
.
Addition:
11?! Where if I remember it only goes up to ten, and why would you want to have it that bloody high anyway?
.Addition:
11?! Where if I remember it only goes up to ten, and why would you want to have it that bloody high anyway?
- 7,623
- Exorcet
- OE Exorcet
No stopping force is applied on the entire car by the brakes themselves, only the tires do that. Once you lock up, increasing the friction between pads and discs does nothing. Fade reduces the friction between disc and pads and once you can no longer generate enough friction to lock your brakes, your stopping distance goes up.
The speed doesn't matter either unless you're using wings for downforce.
- 8,723
Doesn't a higher speed require harder braking initially, in the sense that the rotating wheel and brake assemblies carry more energy? So the faster you go, the "harder" it is to lock the brakes (e.g. from a quick jab)?
I appreciate that the kinetic energy of the wheels is far less than that in the car overall, but it should take the edge off it a bit (I'm sure I've "seen" GT drivers stomp on the brakes initially and then release slightly). There's also more cooling duty available at higher speeds.
I appreciate that the kinetic energy of the wheels is far less than that in the car overall, but it should take the edge off it a bit (I'm sure I've "seen" GT drivers stomp on the brakes initially and then release slightly). There's also more cooling duty available at higher speeds.
- 1,211
- Earth
- TheLordSnowden
- LordSnowden
Brake fade is 100% feeling in real racing, just like tire ware and gforce... I would assume some onscreen gage would be needed. Trial and error in game wouldn't be that fun... Nor would I think it translated well to a low resolution controller trigger...
Answer to brake fade? Apply more pressure... Not very conducive to gameplay especially if you can adjust brake force... Not to mention how many laps before you notice it...
Answer to brake fade? Apply more pressure... Not very conducive to gameplay especially if you can adjust brake force... Not to mention how many laps before you notice it...
- 8,723
Just like tyre wear, you can "feel" changes in brake effectiveness in sims. Especially if it's non uniform, e.g. if the fronts go first (as may be expected based purely on load, but cooling is more complicated than that), your bias shifts in the rearward direction...
How do you know if it's the brakes or the tyres going off? Well, as an example, if the car only tries to go backwards in the braking zones, but not in steady cornering, it's probably the brakes. If there's somehow no change in bias, then longer stopping distances shouldn't be too difficult to notice anyway, unless you don't really pay attention to braking points (I tend to daydream a bit these days!) If PD replace the two brake power sliders with one for overall power and one for bias (which would make more sense anyway), the RA menu will be fine for dealing with all aspects of brake fade (except fluid problems).
A few tens of laps of exposure to brake fade, and the differences should become obvious. A few cars / tunes later, you should have it down.
(That actually all depends on how "ABS" is implemented this time, assuming brake fade is in - with GT's to-date super-ABS, brake fade will only increase stopping distances, which is still noticeable enough).
How do you know if it's the brakes or the tyres going off? Well, as an example, if the car only tries to go backwards in the braking zones, but not in steady cornering, it's probably the brakes. If there's somehow no change in bias, then longer stopping distances shouldn't be too difficult to notice anyway, unless you don't really pay attention to braking points (I tend to daydream a bit these days!) If PD replace the two brake power sliders with one for overall power and one for bias (which would make more sense anyway), the RA menu will be fine for dealing with all aspects of brake fade (except fluid problems).
A few tens of laps of exposure to brake fade, and the differences should become obvious. A few cars / tunes later, you should have it down.
(That actually all depends on how "ABS" is implemented this time, assuming brake fade is in - with GT's to-date super-ABS, brake fade will only increase stopping distances, which is still noticeable enough).
- 7,623
- Exorcet
- OE Exorcet
The faster the wheel is rotating, the longer it will take to slow down to a stop, but the goal is to stop the car not the brakes. If you over did the brakes at high speed, you're not really compensating for anything, but you would be reducing the rotational speed of the tires faster than the linear speed of the vehicle causing slippage at the contact patch. So you would basically "lock up" the while the wheels are still rotating.
It shouldn't differ very much from tire wear, which I can feel even without the indicator and manage on a controller. They could always allow an option to disable it though.
- 8,723
Mo' downforce, mo' grip. 
- 7,623
- Exorcet
- OE Exorcet
Lock Up only happens when the grip between the rotor and pads is greater than the grip between the tire and the road. For the most part these are constant with speed. Downforce causes an increase in tire grip with speed and this means that lock up resistance goes up with speed as well. Usually it's felt when slowing down on a car with no ABS, you can hold constant brake force and be fine at high speed, but slow down enough and you suddenly lock up.
- 15,401
- TRAPPIST-1g
- ProjectWHaT
Imagine how fun endurance races will be! 
- 2,095
- Burke, Fairfax,
- GTP_STRIKER
- Xbox SUCKS
@Griffith500 you do understand that more down force will not give you the most grip anymore mate. Everything has changed and it's NOT GT5. No matter how long a race is @MX5Racer69 if you boil or over heat the brake fluid you must change it.
I can't wait @ProjectWHaT, I'm also looking forward to see if the racing will change if any. Some think that they racing will change greatly, only time will tell.
@Griffith500, how do you see that nothing has changed? With the involvement of KW and Yokohama and with the new aerodynamic algorithm alone much had changed. Posted video and statements clear showing and stating things have changed. Maybe you'll have a changed of heart when you're unable to abate in time.
I can't wait @ProjectWHaT, I'm also looking forward to see if the racing will change if any. Some think that they racing will change greatly, only time will tell.
@Griffith500, how do you see that nothing has changed? With the involvement of KW and Yokohama and with the new aerodynamic algorithm alone much had changed. Posted video and statements clear showing and stating things have changed. Maybe you'll have a changed of heart when you're unable to abate in time.
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- 4,803
- Dearborn, MI
- MotorCtyHamilton
In my real world race car, I never get brake fade. Never. This is because I choose a pad that operates best within the temperature range that is optimal for my car. Brake fade happens when you are using the wrong brakes for the type of racing that you are doing.
I guess I would be in support of a model for street cars that would emulate brake fade on stock pads, but then it would be one of the first items that I would upgrade. So why should PD program something that every online racer would just upgrade anyway? Even for endurance racing, teams pick pads for the application. With the quality of racing brakes today, race drivers around the world are not fighting brake fade unless there is a problem with their equipment. People are asking for something that is useless, in my opinion.
I guess I would be in support of a model for street cars that would emulate brake fade on stock pads, but then it would be one of the first items that I would upgrade. So why should PD program something that every online racer would just upgrade anyway? Even for endurance racing, teams pick pads for the application. With the quality of racing brakes today, race drivers around the world are not fighting brake fade unless there is a problem with their equipment. People are asking for something that is useless, in my opinion.
- 8,723
@Zuel I don't think we know that anything has changed yet, but it's a nice thought at least! Obviously, if the fluid's compromised in any way it'll need a change, but fade is separate from that anyway. And yes, if your brakes aren't capable of overwhelming the tyres' grip, for any reason, then more downforce won't help there.
@Motor City Hami this is why I would expect it to be considered unnecessary busy work, but the people demanded it...!
However, variable brake temperatures do "feel nice" in a sim, and a bit of fade might be interesting in stock cars (although they'd all have to have the same character, wouldn't they, or else manufacturers' PR departments might explode).
@Motor City Hami this is why I would expect it to be considered unnecessary busy work, but the people demanded it...!
However, variable brake temperatures do "feel nice" in a sim, and a bit of fade might be interesting in stock cars (although they'd all have to have the same character, wouldn't they, or else manufacturers' PR departments might explode).
- 315
- Washington
- ace004
Either way they wouldn't be able to properly simulate brake fade how it feels in real life. I just don't think it's entirely possible.
I agree 100%
- 7,623
- Exorcet
- OE Exorcet
Why is every racer going to upgrade it?
Even if they did what about someone just doing laps in stock cars?
Brake fade should be modeled because it's real and it happens in real cars.
- 4,495
- Vancouver, BC
I want to be able to fit drum brakes to some cars.
- 5,897
- Canada
You could say the same for tires.
I would very much like brake fade. I think that it's a fun element of racing that can really bring some excitement to GT6.
I think there may have been a misunderstanding. I'm just saying blanket statements like these "Locking up the wheels is a sign you already have more than enough braking strength" are not true at all. You could lock brakes up at 15mph but that doesn't mean you cannot brake any harder, all you need to do is apply less braking force next time and you won't lock the brakes. So when you're at high speed instead of having **** brakes because you've locked them up previously and didn't decide to go for the big brake kit you could be still be braking at 0.4G while the guy behind you who decided to go for the big brakes could now decelerate at 0.8g and come up the inside of you into the right hander and receives the chequered flag before you.
Of course speed still matters though if you locked up at 15mph it doesn't mean much if you locked up at 200mph you need to sell me whatever brake package you have.
Mo' downforce, mo' grip.
Would you brake any differently if you had treaded tyres on compared to slicks? How about if you had a heavier car? Not talking about forces but talking the actual braking style. I can appreciate having more aero grip allows for greater braking pressure to be applied.
What do you reckon will give you the most grip now?
- 5,351
- United States
- kudos00
Pretty sure he understands that his funny (seriously) quip about more downforce equaling more grip isn't always realistically/circumstantially the case.
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
However, would not stock factory brakes on many/most cars produce brake fade if you take that car out to the track and run around at race speeds for a few laps? Perhaps that is the brake fade that will be simulated, whereas with racing brakes you eliminate the fade? Yes everyone that goes online will upgrade, but it at least might leave the option of having some realistic brake fade on your completely street stock setup.
- 4,803
- Dearborn, MI
- MotorCtyHamilton
If I were going to track a street car, I would change out the brake pads at the track. What I don't understand is why so many people on this forum are asking for PD to program something inferior. You only get brake fade if you use the wrong brakes for the application.
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
Agreed, but in GT it's possible to take a car off the showroom floor and onto the track without doing anything to the brakes. I'm guessing people want this feature because they would like to approximate what it's like to take the car in their driveway onto the track without any improvements. The ultimate realism if you will...
- 7,623
- Exorcet
- OE Exorcet
There are no wrong brakes. Races/lobbies/ or the player's whim get to decide what's allowed and what's not, and that can include bone stock brakes. Tons of people track cars that way in real life anyway, even if it isn't in an actual race.
Also remember that GT has had cars spanning from now to 1886. They're not all using ultra modern vented discs.
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