Brexit - The UK leaves the EU

Deal or No Deal?

  • Voted Leave - May's Deal

  • Voted Leave - No Deal

  • Voted Leave - Second Referendum

  • Did not vote/abstained - May's Deal

  • Did not vote/abstained - No Deal

  • Did not vote/abstained - Second Referendum

  • Voted Remain - May's Deal

  • Voted Remain - No Deal

  • Voted Remain - Second Referendum

Results are only viewable after voting.
Pound plummets to two-year low as Boris Johnson's government prepares for a no-deal Brexit
https://www.businessinsider.com/pound-plummets-boris-johnsons-cabinet-prepares-for-no-deal-brexit-2019-7

Here we go, the road to ruin. I always assumed that no-deal would be so bad that no government would actually do it, I not longer have that confidence as our current PM and his cabinet. They'll be safe and prosper in the chaos, while the rest of us suffer. I can't see anyway for Remain to gain any mandate or a pro-Remain party to win any election.

He's positioning himself and his cabinet so that no-deal is the only option talked about, try and push it through Parliament and if that fails, hold a GE in which he'll be able to command a majority thanks to the Brexit Party votes with Remain split between the bewilderingly antisemitic and inept Labour and the Liberal Democrats. With his new majority he'll finally be able to push us into oblivion. Able to strip workers of their rights, businesses and the wealthy of their tax burdens and push the US Health 'System' onto us. Furthering the divide between the UK nations before disappearing having made himself far richer.
 
Last edited:
baldgye
Pound plummets to two-year low as Boris Johnson's government prepares for a no-deal Brexit
https://www.businessinsider.com/pound-plummets-boris-johnsons-cabinet-prepares-for-no-deal-brexit-2019-7

Here we go, the road to ruin. I always assumed that no-deal would be so bad that no government would actually do it, I not longer have that confidence as our current PM and his cabinet. They'll be safe and prosper in the chaos, while the rest of us suffer. I can't see anyway for Remain to gain any mandate or a pro-Remain party to win any election.

He's positioning himself and his cabinet so that no-deal is the only option talked about, try and push it through Parliament and if that fails, hold a GE in which he'll be able to command a majority thanks to the Brexit Party votes with Remain split between the bewilderingly antisemitic and inept Labour and the Liberal Democrats. With his new majority he'll finally be able to push us into oblivion. Able to strip workers of their rights, businesses and the wealthy of their tax burdens and push the US Health 'System' onto us. Furthering the divide between the UK nations before disappearing having made himself far richer.
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Instead of suffering, why don't you mount a coup d'etat? A healthy regime change may be in order, you could right your ship and make the bad guys suffer instead of you.
 
Dotini
Instead of suffering, why don't you mount a coup d'etat? A healthy regime change may be in order, you could right your ship and make the bad guys suffer instead of you.
Click to expand...

Changing the government won't work. Society needs to change, media control needs to change, and the system needs to change, the result of this would be a proper change in governance. The same equation is only going to keep giving the same output.
 
MatskiMonk
Changing the government won't work. Society needs to change, media control needs to change, and the system needs to change, the result of this would be a proper change in governance. The same equation is only going to keep giving the same output.
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Well, in lieu of a pogrom or massive culling of the herd, you guys look to be in line for a time of suffering. Perhaps it is well deserved, a form of karma for harm you've previously inflicted on others in this or another lifetime? But if it is not deserved, where's the justice in that? No justice, no peace!
 
Dotini
Well then, it's time for a searching and fearless moral inventory!

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Stop blamin' alcoololism... s'not my beers fault... shhhhh beer don't listen to the bad mermerican....


Seriously though, if we using Frank Gorshin to explain stuff... it's more like we never got the point of this story...

latest
 
Reading the posts from all of the UK citizens (at least the regular ones in this thread) I am a bit puzzled by the supposed lack of voting options you complain about. If you cast aside the "neither here nor there" Labour Party (IMHO the main culprit of the referendum result and of the UK's political paralysis during the last three years), when you're looking from the outside it does appear obvious that Brexiteers have at least three options (Tory Party, Brexit Party, UK Independence Party), and Remainers have one very clear option, the Lib Dems (if you're in Scotland the SNP also)

The problem is that, for some reason everyone discards the Lib Dems as a serious alternative. And like a self fulfilling prophecy, they'll lose, even if their leader is clear on what she wants (unlike Corbyn) and actually looks like a competent, sensible politician especially when compared to Bojo, Raab, and the very trustworthy pair of Michael "Brutus" Gove and Priti "Mata Hari" Patel, just to name the ones whose presence in the UK Government confounds me the most.
 
Hun200kmh
Reading the posts from all of the UK citizens (at least the regular ones in this thread) I am a bit puzzled by the supposed lack of voting options you complain about. If you cast aside the "neither here nor there" Labour Party (IMHO the main culprit of the referendum result and of the UK's political paralysis during the last three years), when you're looking from the outside it does appear obvious that Brexiteers have at least three options (Tory Party, Brexit Party, UK Independence Party), and Remainers have one very clear option, the Lib Dems (if you're in Scotland the SNP also)

The problem is that, for some reason everyone discards the Lib Dems as a serious alternative. And like a self fulfilling prophecy, they'll lose, even if their leader is clear on what she wants (unlike Corbyn) and actually looks like a competent, sensible politician especially when compared to Bojo, Raab, and the very trustworthy pair of Michael "Brutus" Gove and Priti "Mata Hari" Patel, just to name the ones whose presence in the UK Government confounds me the most.
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(IMO)

The problem is that the two main parties have millions of essentially guaranteed 'historic' voters who vote for Labour or Tories, because they've always voted that way and couldn't think of changing their vote. The Lib Dems 'historic' voters are orders of magnitude smaller than either Labours or the Conservatives. And so for them to get a massive swing, they need a miracle.

Not only that, but Labour in the recent chaos has splintered and taken votes with them, further diluting the vote.
The Tories splinters have mostly been anti-EU, with the new PM and his cabinet they can bring those voters back into the fold, while the utter ****-show that is Labour continues to haemorrhage its non-historic voters to various parties.

  • BoJo isn't stupid and has rallied the old faithful Tory voters with promises of tax cuts and deregulation, while pushing the extreme right Brexit agenda.
  • Corbyn is stupid and can't even sort out his own party, let alone form any kind of meaningful narrative about what he, or his party stands for.
  • And the Lib Dems have yet to find a leader that can inspire anything like the kind of head-master vibe of Nick Clegg (had anyone even noticed they'd gotten a new leader?). It's also worth pointing out that when Brexit/Art.50 was being pushed through Parliament the Lib Dems announced to the world they were a Remain party, yet both the leader and deputy leader failed to show up for the vote(s) to help prevent Art.50, due to being in an Anti-Brexit strategy meeting...
 
Today I came across a journalistic piece related to the issue of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland post Brexit and for the first time I've heard some politicians propose the reunification of Ireland.

The problem of NI has gained relevance recently and I haven't seen high profile politicians discussing this option in the UK (probably because they don't even consider losing NI and were busy with the "deal or no deal" mess).

So I'm curious to know what the irish and brits here think about it.
 
zzz_pt
Today I came across a journalistic piece related to the issue of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland post Brexit and for the first time I've heard some politicians propose the reunification of Ireland.

The problem of NI has gained relevance recently and I haven't seen high profile politicians discussing this option in the UK (probably because they don't even consider losing NI and were busy with the "deal or no deal" mess).

So I'm curious to know what the irish and brits here think about it.
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The Irish PM has now openly stated that Irish reunification would be on the table after Brexit - and I strongly suspect this has been on the minds of both the Irish government and the EU all along.

I'm not personally averse to the idea, and there is (in the Good Friday Agreement) provision for holding referendums (the so-called 'Border Poll') in both Ireland and Northern Ireland to allow for the possibility of reunification - but the Unionist element in Northern Ireland would go bananas.

I am a staunch opponent of Scottish independence, but Brexit has shifted the goalposts on that too... while I still oppose Scottish independence, I am less opposed to it now than I was during the referendum on the subject a few years ago - but the situation in Ireland could have serious ramifications for Scotland too... if Northern Ireland gets to stay in the Single Market while also staying a part of the UK (via the 'Backstop') then Scotland will demand equal treatment. If Ireland ends up holding a referendum and reunifying (and thus NI citizens keep their EU memberships, and, I suspect, also their British passports) then Scotland would almost certainly follow suit.. either way, both options would see a massive surge in support for Scottish independence that would almost certainly result in a win for the Nationalists at a future referendum.

Sadly, it would appear that the most vocal and staunch supporters of Brexit don't really care whether Northern Ireland or Scotland (or both) end up leaving the UK - and since both nations voted strongly to remain inside the EU, it also makes sense on that front too. The end result could well be a de facto 'English independence', with a reunited Ireland, an independent Scotland, and either an independent or completely ruined Wales tagging along, stripped of all that EU cash it currently enjoys.

A reunified Ireland could be a roaring success, but for the crazies (on both sides) who will probably knock ten shades of Guinness out of each other, but an independent Scotland would have no choice but to maintain painfully close links to a potentially hostile UK government - and Scexit would make Brexit look like a walk in the park by comparison.

As Steve Bannon said today, the Brexit debacle is only just beginning.
 
Touring Mars
I am a staunch opponent of Scottish independence, but Brexit has shifted the goalposts on that too... while I still oppose Scottish independence, I am less opposed to it now than I was during the referendum on the subject a few years ago - but the situation in Ireland could have serious ramifications for Scotland too... if Northern Ireland gets to stay in the Single Market while also staying a part of the UK (via the 'Backstop') then Scotland will demand equal treatment. If Ireland ends up holding a referendum and reunifying (and thus NI citizens keep their EU memberships, and, I suspect, also their British passports) then Scotland would almost certainly follow suit.. either way, both options would see a massive surge in support for Scottish independence that would almost certainly result in a win for the Nationalists at a future referendum.
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Not to veer off topic, but aren't the two vastly different? NI would be (in theory) merging with an existing EU nation. Where-as Scotland (as a newly independent nation), would have to go through the EU joining application process?

Am I right?

I agree that would be the knock-on effect, but aren't the same problems that existed before Brexit, still present for an independent Scotland?
 
Hun200kmh
Reading the posts from all of the UK citizens (at least the regular ones in this thread) I am a bit puzzled by the supposed lack of voting options you complain about. If you cast aside the "neither here nor there" Labour Party (IMHO the main culprit of the referendum result and of the UK's political paralysis during the last three years), when you're looking from the outside it does appear obvious that Brexiteers have at least three options (Tory Party, Brexit Party, UK Independence Party), and Remainers have one very clear option, the Lib Dems (if you're in Scotland the SNP also)

The problem is that, for some reason everyone discards the Lib Dems as a serious alternative. And like a self fulfilling prophecy, they'll lose, even if their leader is clear on what she wants (unlike Corbyn) and actually looks like a competent, sensible politician especially when compared to Bojo, Raab, and the very trustworthy pair of Michael "Brutus" Gove and Priti "Mata Hari" Patel, just to name the ones whose presence in the UK Government confounds me the most.
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What if I support exiting the EU, but don't want to live in an Orwellian hellscape of CCTV and censorship? I certainly can't and won't vote for the Tories; the Brexit Party is basically a furnace for ballot papers, and UKIP has very literally outlived its purpose (not that I have ever had a great deal of respect for them, they seem to have been completely incapable of purging racists and idiots from their ranks).

That's two of my "pro-Brexit" options that only exist to deal with Brexit; with no other plan or even interest for any other issue in this country; they assume I will vote for them to guarantee Brexit isn't reversed and that they will work out the rest as they go, which is really very stupid and I think I'd have to be pretty damn shortsighted (inb4 you were shortsighted to vote leave) to consider them worthy of running anything.

On the left, where my vote traditionally goes, I have Labour, whose powers-that-be simply could not handle Corbyn's leadership and the changes that, by voting for him, its actual membership clearly wanted. They have preserved the status quo and the security of their jobs regardless of the cost, and now Labour is a disjointed, autocannibalistic mess of a party that will be damn lucky to cling on to the safe seats its held for decades. Ready to jump into their slot are the Lib Dems, the "reverse Brexit" party, who wish to use Labour's weakness to become the "true" leftist option, but really only along the lines of reversing Brexit, which I am against. Lib Dem supporters have literally called me a Fascist for this, which doesn't endear them to me an awful lot. Add to that, the memory of Deputy Clegg is fresh, and he got into bed with the Tories and broke many promises just for a taste of power - and I find that sort of ambitious, cutthroat politicking pretty common among Lib Dems I've spoken with - many are party hoppers and career-driven.

The landscape is a mess. Brexit has become the be-all and end-all of a politician's stance and has been divvied up by the media as right=leave, left=remain, despite a bag of evidence to suggest support for both options for both sides. So I find a complete lack of representation from any party for the ordinary chap.

It is a tragedy - our entire political system has been corrupted by this Brexit issue, as everyone's dug their heels on deeper and deeper on either refusing to accept that they were a minority in the vote, or refusing to conduct the actual process of Brexit with any sense of decorum or responsibility. Nothing is represented beyond one's stance on Brexit - so you can either vote to try and uphold the result of the referendum as it should be, and inadvertently create a right-wing government that will expand upon the police-state-ifying of this country, or you can vote in an ineffectual, inexperienced government, who may seem well intentioned and not outright evil, but have no plan beyond reversing the will of the British people and hoping Germany will forgive us.

For reference, the outcome I hoped for - a pro-Brexit, Corbyn-led Labour party, is rather thoroughly off the table, due to the intriguing within the party that, really, I should have seen coming.
 
baldgye
Not to veer off topic, but aren't the two vastly different? NI would be (in theory) merging with an existing EU nation. Where-as Scotland (as a newly independent nation), would have to go through the EU joining application process?

Am I right?

I agree that would be the knock-on effect, but aren't the same problems that existed before Brexit, still present for an independent Scotland?
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The two situations are different insomuch as they are both unique, however they share the fact that they are both unprecedented and, AFAIK, the EU has no set rules on either situation - in other words, I reckon the EU can and will do whatever works out best for the EU in both cases.

An independent Scotland faces a daunting task, however, in both negotiating its way out of the UK while simultaneously negotiating its way into the EU - the assumption by most nationalists (that I've heard speak anyway) is that both will be simple - nothing could be further from the truth, though. Scotland stands to lose out big time from a Brexit process that has singularly ignored the quite legitimate concerns of the Scottish government, while it also stands to lose out from a 'Scexit' process that could decimate what is left of the Scottish economy. And, yet, nationalists think that the EU will be waiting with open arms to welcome a new member to the fold when, in reality, there will be little appetite to cede the hard-won new sovereign powers straight back to an even bigger bureaucratic behemoth than the UK government. An independent Scotland after Brexit runs the very real risk of being cut off from both the UK internal market and the EU single market at the same time.
 
This is why I Sort of Envy's Americas Primary system, if you where allowed to have a choice on who runs the Party it could potentially fix alot of the nonsense happening within these parties as it in effect can work as a Referendum on the party direction.

They are all headless chickens as it stands.
 
Suggestions in the UK press today that there may be a cross-party coalition forming with the sole purpose of requesting another extension to Article 50.

https://www.ft.com/content/00e75fb4-b793-11e9-8a88-aa6628ac896c (paywall)

If such a coalition could gain a majority in Parliament before the end of October, and assume control of the order paper in Parliament (which is usually controlled by the sitting Government, but can (and recently has) been taken control of by a majority of MPs), then it is possible the EU might also be in a position to grant an emergency extension of Article 50, provided the UK Parliament can deliver a majority vote to request one in time to avoid a No Deal exit.

If that happened, then a No Deal Brexit could, in theory anyway, be avoided and Boris Johnson's brief spell as UK's Prime Minister would almost certainly come to a crashing halt.

There are rumblings that this might not be possible, however, but there are probably enough MPs (all Lib Dems, all SNP and Plaid Cymru, most of Labour and a sizable enough chunk of Tories) to make this happen.
 
Touring Mars
Suggestions in the UK press today that there may be a cross-party coalition forming with the sole purpose of requesting another extension to Article 50.

https://www.ft.com/content/00e75fb4-b793-11e9-8a88-aa6628ac896c (paywall)

If such a coalition could gain a majority in Parliament before the end of October, and assume control of the order paper in Parliament (which is usually controlled by the sitting Government, but can (and recently has) been taken control of by a majority of MPs), then it is possible the EU might also be in a position to grant an emergency extension of Article 50, provided the UK Parliament can deliver a majority vote to request one in time to avoid a No Deal exit.

If that happened, then a No Deal Brexit could, in theory anyway, be avoided and Boris Johnson's brief spell as UK's Prime Minister would almost certainly come to a crashing halt.

There are rumblings that this might not be possible, however, but there are probably enough MPs (all Lib Dems, all SNP and Plaid Cymru, most of Labour and a sizable enough chunk of Tories) to make this happen.
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Bizarre. This is starting to sound like The Game of Thrones, except it is never coming to an end.
 
Dotini
Bizarre. This is starting to sound like The Game of Thrones, except it is never coming to an end.
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There is no writer on Earth talented enough to capture the endless nuances and nonsenses of British politics.

Ultimately, ASOIAF is an attempt to do just that with late medieval English politics, and falls flat on its face in chapter one when the magical ice people appear.
 
Perhaps my frustration with the EU over the whole Brexit debacle is summed up by their statement today that there is 'no basis' for re-opening negotiations with the UK.

I wonder, on what basis is there 'no basis' for re-opening negotiations?

That the EU gets what it wants from the deal (but the UK does not) is not a good enough reason to refuse to re-open negotiations. One might even wonder if the EU are secretly happy with the prospect of No Deal??
 
Touring Mars
Perhaps my frustration with the EU over the whole Brexit debacle is summed up by their statement today that there is 'no basis' for re-opening negotiations with the UK.

I wonder, on what basis is there 'no basis' for re-opening negotiations?

That the EU gets what it wants from the deal (but the UK does not) is not a good enough reason to refuse to re-open negotiations. One might even wonder if the EU are secretly happy with the prospect of No Deal??
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My personal feeling is that the EU are very proud of the huge pile of paperwork they've created and the impression it would make on anyone else who might want to leave the League of Super Best Pals
 
Touring Mars
Perhaps my frustration with the EU over the whole Brexit debacle is summed up by their statement today that there is 'no basis' for re-opening negotiations with the UK.

I wonder, on what basis is there 'no basis' for re-opening negotiations?

That the EU gets what it wants from the deal (but the UK does not) is not a good enough reason to refuse to re-open negotiations. One might even wonder if the EU are secretly happy with the prospect of No Deal??
Click to expand...

The EU won't be in the position of breaching the peace agreement, the UK will. It's hard to see what basis Gove/Johnson have offered for reopening talks given that they say the backstop must be dropped - why would the EU vote on that? If the shillelagh was on the other guinness and Ireland had voted Leave then the UK would hardly support them getting their potatoes and eating them.

Surely the news that the EU countries (which have been shafted by Britain's veto for so long that they're surely glad to see the back of it) don't want to acquiesce in Britain's baseless requests is no longer news to anyone? Why on earth would they? Britain put itself in this impossible bargaining position despite promising during the Leave campaign that it would never happen. It was obvious that it could, and that it probably would. And it has.
 

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