Brexit - The UK leaves the EU

Deal or No Deal?

  • Voted Leave - May's Deal

  • Voted Leave - No Deal

  • Voted Leave - Second Referendum

  • Did not vote/abstained - May's Deal

  • Did not vote/abstained - No Deal

  • Did not vote/abstained - Second Referendum

  • Voted Remain - May's Deal

  • Voted Remain - No Deal

  • Voted Remain - Second Referendum


Results are only viewable after voting.
Sounds legit on paper but not necessarily true in practice, or at least not true for everyone. I was flat broke 20 years ago and on the verge of bankruptcy. Started a new business, drew no salary for 6 months and $500/month for 6 months after that. Worked back to back 18 hour shifts with 4 hours sleep in between to man the shop and a total of 63 hours a week just in the shop. I fought through it and came out smelling like a rose but I still enjoyed my life immensely when I was broke and living with a friend. I look back on those days very fondly and even at the time I never thought of myself as totally broke, just struggling. I knew I'd make it out for one reason - I was willing to work hard.

Most dudes I know have been in the same boat and every single one of them is successful today.

You had food, clothes and a roof over your head. I qualified those as largely necessary to be happy. You had a friend who was at least willing to look out for you to the extent of giving you somewhere warm to sleep. You were in no immediate danger, just discomfort.

Like I said, money doesn't necessarily make you happy (and destroying the rest of your life to get it certainly won't as many "successful" people have found out) but if you're struggling to stay alive for lack of it then it's near impossible to be peaceful, tranquil, or happy more or less by definition. Money fixes that problem, and is by far the best way to fix it in a modern society.

Tell me how happy you are when you're living under a bridge, wrapping yourself in newspaper and digging through garbage bins for food. There's a difference between facing tough times but still having your needs met and being legitimately on the edge of survival. You said it yourself, you weren't broke, just struggling. You'd have to go further down until a lack of resources would actually affect your ability to find happiness.

Sage advice from a man who knows:tup:👍

Slightly depressing that the first two are a thing, but the world is what it is. I'd also add to that list "be lucky". It's entirely possible to be smart, hard-working and personable and simply be in the wrong places at the wrong times.
 

Can't read the article because it requires an FT subscription but I can guess what it says.

I think it's a bluff by them, yes they are already moving the Freelander production abroad but there is no way they would drastically reduce their UK based operations and manufacturing simply because it's the Britishness that sells the brands (particularly in a luxury segment). BMW knew it with Mini and Rolls Royce, VW knew it with Bentley etc. The demand for their vehicles would fall off a cliff if they were made abroad imo.
 
Can't read the article because it requires an FT subscription but I can guess what it says.

I think it's a bluff by them, yes they are already moving the Freelander production abroad but there is no way they would drastically reduce their UK based operations and manufacturing simply because it's the Britishness that sells the brands (particularly in a luxury segment). BMW knew it with Mini and Rolls Royce, VW knew it with Bentley etc. The demand for their vehicles would fall off a cliff if they were made abroad imo.

I don't think it is. They do most of their buisness abroad and the name sells it, rather than being made in the UK. They said in the article (that I could read on my phone but not on my PC) that a hard brexit has the potential to cost them £1bn a year and so until they know what is up, they are halting investment in the UK and could look to pull out entirely.

I mean think about it, Rolls Royce and Aston Martin arn't British owned anymore, it's just a name and a brand. What does it care where they are made, long as they are handbuilt to the same standards as the owners expect. Britishness isn't a thing it's just marketing. Same reason Harley Davidson can shift production to Europe.
 
I don't think it is. They do most of their buisness abroad and the name sells it, rather than being made in the UK. They said in the article (that I could read on my phone but not on my PC) that a hard brexit has the potential to cost them £1bn a year and so until they know what is up, they are halting investment in the UK and could look to pull out entirely.

I mean think about it, Rolls Royce and Aston Martin arn't British owned anymore, it's just a name and a brand. What does it care where they are made, long as they are handbuilt to the same standards as the owners expect. Britishness isn't a thing it's just marketing. Same reason Harley Davidson can shift production to Europe.

Sure, there will always be many people who don't mind where it is made as long as it's a certain level of quality but there is an equally large amount of consumers that will want Japanese stuff to be made in Japan, German stuff to be made in Germany etc, so why not cover both and ensure you don't alienate any potential customers. They are buying into a historic luxury UK brand, why shouldn't it just be made in the UK.

For example in China (a big market for everyone including JLR) where something is made is VERY important to the ever expanding middle class that associate it with quality and heritage. When something is made in Europe for example it features heavily in the marketing over there because it means something, even if its just on a mental level. With the brands no longer being British there is even more a reason to 'British it up' in other areas such as production. Another example is the US where consumers are extremely patriotic about made in the USA goods, they proudly emblazon packaging with this fact and it means something over there. In the case of Harley I could see their sales suffering in the US because of moving production.

Could fashion houses get away with not having the vast majority of their products produced in Italy or France? They can be made the same way everywhere but it matters that they are made where they are supposed to be and that is part of the attraction that allows them to charge the prices they do. Personally for me when I buy something where it's made is right up there and it will often be a deal-breaker especially if it's a big ticket purchase.
 
Can't read the article because it requires an FT subscription but I can guess what it says.

I think it's a bluff by them, yes they are already moving the Freelander production abroad but there is no way they would drastically reduce their UK based operations and manufacturing simply because it's the Britishness that sells the brands (particularly in a luxury segment). BMW knew it with Mini and Rolls Royce, VW knew it with Bentley etc. The demand for their vehicles would fall off a cliff if they were made abroad imo.
BMW are doing the same with Mini.

The industry is currently making plans to do just what you think they will not, they will.

My own (advertised) as very Swedish Volvo, isn't built in Sweden.

The likes of the very top end will stay, but JLR isn't quite at that level and Mini certainly aren't. Oh and modern Bentleys have been built in Germany, due to demand Flying Spurs were built in Dresden in 2005 and 2006 (for markets outside of the UK and US), JLR already has plants in India, China and South America (being added to with Slovakia and the i-Pace and e-Pace come out of Austria); Mini's are pretty much built any damn place they can, with BMW adding capacity to those plants over the UK ones.

Automotive investment in the UK has fallen off a cliff since the vote, down from £2.5 billion in 2015 to £1.66bn in 2017 (the lowest level ever), the first six months of this year are even worse sitting at £322m (which is repeated in the second half would be £644m and a under half the already all time low of last year).

Brexit has the potential to utterly change the UK motor industry, and not for the better (which is what the industry professional and trade bodies - the professional one of which I'm a member of - have been warning about since day one). I can assure you that JLR are not bluffing, nor is any other manufacturer currently based in the UK.

When 80% of the product ends up being exported (the bulk of which goes to Europe), and 66% of the components in those vehicles come from abroad its a no brainer. Any increase in time in customs and/or tariff costs in either direction will push up costs to the point of being untenable. When the bulk of the components come from Europe and the bulk of the vehicles end up in Europe it's not exactly a stretch to see where production will then end up!

Yes Bentley, Rolls and McLaren may well stay in the UK, but that's a tiny fraction of the UK workforce in the industry. The potential (and medium to long term very real) loss of Vauxhall, BMW/Mini, Honda, Nissan, Toyota, etc in terms of manufacturing would destroy the economies of a number of large UK towns and city (including the one I'm sat in typing this - we stand to lose BMW/Mini and Honda - both the plants and the UK side of the supply chain and the associated companies).

That's without even looking at the impact it would have on the UK retail network and the 3rd party supply chain that relies on that (which I work in).

So no, I don't, sitting right inside this particular industry, think for a minute this is people trying to call the UK governments bluff. In reality its actually been a clear, consistent and accurate series of warnings from an entire industry that the UK government and the Leave campaign have repeatedly ignored (as they had enough of experts).
 
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Sure, there will always be many people who don't mind where it is made as long as it's a certain level of quality but there is an equally large amount of consumers that will want Japanese stuff to be made in Japan, German stuff to be made in Germany etc, so why not cover both and ensure you don't alienate any potential customers. They are buying into a historic luxury UK brand, why shouldn't it just be made in the UK.

Like historic English luxury brands whose bodies and engines are already produced in Dingolfing, Eisenach, and Landshut (all of which are in Germany)? I don't think there's as many people that buy into this thinking as you think there are... only 46% of BMW's production takes place in Germany - more than a third of BMW's sold (and climbing) are X models, and NONE of them are built in Germany. People might want to buy into a German marque, but I don't think many care enough to find out how German the cars are.

Could fashion houses get away with not having the vast majority of their products produced in Italy or France? They can be made the same way everywhere and that is part of the attraction that allows them to charge the prices they do. Personally for me when I buy something where it's made is right up there and it will often be a deal-breaker especially if it's a big ticket purchase.

That attitude may be somewhat justifiable in fashion where it's often substanceless image that dictates profits, but it doesn't make much sense for items with significant bills of material, or vast sets of specifications to back them up.

edit, it's anecdotal, but I'd have to say, in 17 years of flogging expensive Hi-Fi I'd estimate that less than 1 in 10 customers ever showed any concern as to where something was made, and it wasn't uncommon for them to already think where they knew something was from, and be wrong. I'd say, about 50% of people who asked, thought Bose was German, for example.

Oh and modern Bentleys have been built in Germany, due to demand Flying Spurs were built in Dresden in 2005 and 2006 (for markets outside of the UK and US)

Further to this, the UK government had to lobby to get the Bentayga built here at all... VW wanted to build it in the sleepy English shire of.. err... Slovakia

Mini's are pretty much built any damn place they can, with BMW adding capacity to those plants over the UK ones.

Future Great Wall e-Mini aside, they're either built at Oxford or by VDL Nedcar, though engine production is shared between Hams Hall (UK) and Magna Steyr in Austria.
 
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Future Great Wall e-Mini aside, they're either built at Oxford or by VDL Nedcar, though engine production is shared between Hams Hall (UK) and Magna Steyr in Austria.
You forgot body panels out of Swindon as well.
 
You forgot body panels out of Swindon as well.

Well, I didn't forget about them, I just didn't feel that Swindon was as relevant when it came to the suggestion of MINI manufacturing capacity shortages. I don't know for example if Swndon has the capacity to supply VDL, or if they do their own pressings for MINI.
 
Well, I didn't forget about them, I just didn't feel that Swindon was as relevant when it came to the suggestion of MINI manufacturing capacity shortages. I don't know for example if Swndon has the capacity to supply VDL, or if they do their own pressings for MINI.
They supply Mini body panels for all the production sites (I have a couple of friends that work in the plant - its not the only body panel plant - but its a major one), its a major part of the supply chain and were BMW to relocate much more of the Mini production and Brexit result in a barrier, I think it would need to be relocated. Its works well right now as panels produced have no custom delay at all, post Brexit that looks likely to change.

The also are not limited to Mini panels, but also BMW for the X1 and 2-series Active Tourer.

https://swindonlink.com/mini-plant-swindon-celebrates-60-years-of-production-with-the-noble-family/
 
They supply Mini body panels for all the production sites (I have a couple of friends that work in the plant - its not the only body panel plant - but its a major one), its a major part of the supply chain and were BMW to relocate much more of the Mini production and Brexit result in a barrier, I think it would need to be relocated. Its works well right now as panels produced have no custom delay at all, post Brexit that looks likely to change.

The also are not limited to Mini panels, but also BMW for the X1 and 2-series Active Tourer.

It's all a big mess really.

It's a good job that we're at an advanced stage of hammering out all the details, and not just infighting about what ideas we might come up with with only 267 days to go...

...


...

d'oh.
 
We should have a better idea of what Brexit might look like after this weekend - either that or the government will collapse and we'll be back to square one.

May and Merkel are meeting as we speak, and one can only hope that they can both see the dire consequences of the 'no compromise' attitude of both the UK government and the EU.
 
God, can you even imagine how great that would be...
It would be even greater if Jeremy Corbyn and Labour had set out a coherent policy on Brexit that isn't likely to put them in an even worse situation than the Tories.

However much I don't won't it, at least Hard Brexit makes a bit of logical sense whereas Soft Brexit doesn't - but Corbyn and Labour don't have the guts to defy the 1/3rd of their supporters who voted to Leave.

If they had any sense, though, they'd say right from the word go that they intend to halt Brexit immediately and have a de facto second referendum on the subject in the form of a General Election...
 
We should have a better idea of what Brexit might look like after this weekend - either that or the government will collapse and we'll be back to square one.

May and Merkel are meeting as we speak, and one can only hope that they can both see the dire consequences of the 'no compromise' attitude of both the UK government and the EU.
Best case, playing pretend hardball, blame the EU for not being reasonable, point how bad hard exit would be and sorry but we can't do that so we'll have to stay in the EU.

Oh wait, it's the Conservative party of crackpots.
 
It would be even greater if Jeremy Corbyn and Labour had set out a coherent policy on Brexit that isn't likely to put them in an even worse situation than the Tories.

However much I don't won't it, at least Hard Brexit makes a bit of logical sense whereas Soft Brexit doesn't - but Corbyn and Labour don't have the guts to defy the 1/3rd of their supporters who voted to Leave.

If they had any sense, though, they'd say right from the word go that they intend to halt Brexit immediately and have a de facto second referendum on the subject in the form of a General Election...

To be honest, I’m glad he hasn’t. He’s a fundamentally weak politician.
I hope both the tories and the Labour Party implodes... and from the darkness, comes David Miliband... the evil machiavellian brother of Wallace.
 
MatskiMonk
Like historic English luxury brands whose bodies and engines are already produced in Dingolfing, Eisenach, and Landshut (all of which are in Germany)? I don't think there's as many people that buy into this thinking as you think there are... only 46% of BMW's production takes place in Germany - more than a third of BMW's sold (and climbing) are X models, and NONE of them are built in Germany. People might want to buy into a German marque, but I don't think many care enough to find out how German the cars are.

MatskiMonk
edit, it's anecdotal, but I'd have to say, in 17 years of flogging expensive Hi-Fi I'd estimate that less than 1 in 10 customers ever showed any concern as to where something was made,

They may not be concerned in the UK but I can absolutely assure you that in developing markets and places like the Far East where something is made is one of, if not the most important factor when making a purchase. It might be to do with there being a lot more unevenness in quality and standards when it comes to product choices in those countries and they may have more confidence in foreign made goods but nevertheless it matters. Go anywhere in the Far East and where something is made will feature prominently on the packaging and in the marketing and it will sway people.

MatskiMonk
That attitude may be somewhat justifiable in fashion where it's often substanceless image that dictates profits, but it doesn't make much sense for items with significant bills of material, or vast sets of specifications to back them up.

But there are people that treat luxury cars as substanceless items (usually the wealthy), buying a car to them is buying a handbag and they may not care about the vastly significant efforts that go into it over said handbag. When Rolls Royce stick the "Hand Built In Goodwood, England" plate on the door sill just that alone is 'selling it' to someone. JLR might not be that level but its still a luxury marque and their cars are bought regularly for superficial reasons, like it's Britishness, which includes being British made.

MatskiMonk
I'd say, about 50% of people who asked, thought Bose was German, for example.

Actually, on the point of Bose, when they shifted production to Mexico and Malaysia it definitely dented the loyal US customer base who felt that the manufacturing should have stayed in the USA. The quality has also suffered as a result and whilst it might still be good enough for most there will be those who no longer buy their stuff because of it. Again, just because the UK consumer doesn't care where something is made doesn't mean companies can't ignore how the rest of the world feels. The US government, or rather Trump, is actually hell bent on getting stuff back to being made in the US in a big way because it's what people voted for and what they want.

Even with UK consumer I don't actually quite buy that they don't care where something is made. How many times have I heard people say they don't want something because its, and I quote, "Junk made in China". It seems like any time something blows up or falls apart that is the bit focused on as the reason. Whether it's justified or not they have indeed formed an opinion based on where something is being manufactured and so do others in other parts of the world. There are also the ethical consumers and the political consumers that care where things are made, it all adds up to a significant chunk of people.
 
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The US government, or rather Trump, is actually hell bent on getting stuff back to being made in the US in a big way because it's what people voted for and what they want.
hmmm not too sure on that...

How many times have I heard people say they don't want something because its, and I quote, "Junk made in China".
I've literally never, ever heard anyone say that in my entire life.

Later on today...



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You've lived a very sheltered life?

Don't think so, I went to both state and public schools growing up. I've lived in the country, smaller towns and now a huge city and I've worked for a specialised software company and one that's made up of ground workers... is that sheltered?


That said, I still don't agree that JLR moving production abroad is posturing or will affect the brand in anyway. I mean, the Fiat 500 isn't even made in Italy!
 
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Don't think so, I went to both state and public schools growing up. I've lived in the country, smaller towns and now a huge city and I've worked for a specialised software company and one that's made up of ground workers... is that sheltered?
Not buying, selling and installing electrical equipment then. I can assure you I hear it a lot.
 
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