Britain - The Official Thread

[Dreadmed]

Fair points regarding ongoing heat accumulation, but can we not agree that cool showers with regular intervals can prevent the onset of life-threatening conditions?

I can agree with that, thankfully I myself didn't reach that point (although I was tempted). This time around we weren't in a critical situation regarding reservoir levels, but there have been occasions in the past 10, 20 years were we have had heatwaves with severe drought levels. It's not unfeasible that a combination of the two in the future would result in constant showering not being a viable option.

Also, I haven’t been comparing Southern European standards to UK standards. Keep in mind that the UK incident is not expected to be a prolonged heatwave, and my posts on this subject are nothing more than a sharing of thoughts on how to make it through the day.

Your (somewhat provocative) post detailing your Italian hotel stay did kick off the debate up above, regardless if that was your intent...

And yes, it wasn't due to last any longer than 40-odd hours... this time around. Some of the older generations here (in the UK, not GTP specifically) will point to the summer of '76 with weeks of 30*C+ (and occasional spikes) and how much of a nightmare that was and how they soldiered on to boot... the worry that I and many others have is the temperature trend is irrevocably pointing one way.

How long will it be before weeks of 38*C+ (which, just to remind you, was the national maximum temperature record until a couple days ago) becomes a common occurrence? To repeat myself and others, as it stands the UK is simply not built to tolerate those kind of temperatures. And it's not just us; France, Spain, Portugal are/were on fire, at present it seems like 1/3rd of the continental US is currently being scorched (37*C+), the Jiangxi Delta has been topping 40*C for the past couple of weeks. And that's just listing off events happening at present, the Vancouver heat/hell dome is still fresh in my memory. If this all seems like Alarmist tripe peddled by the media then... good. We should be alarmed.

45 C according to the car termometer I was relying on. News to me that we cannot trust thermometers, which is a claim you haven’t backed up with anything.

Car thermos are inherently inaccurate (for official measurements anyway), if only because they're either sat in the sun or you're driving about in open conditions getting blasted by that fireball up above, so the reading is invariably going to be a few *C higher than the actual air temp. Temperatures taken for official records are usually done via a Stevenson screen. (And yes, large chunks of England were hitting 40*C in the shade.)

 

[Famine]

How are you still not getting this?

The UK has never experienced the temperatures that it experienced this week and (almost) nothing in the country is designed to cope with those temperatures - or indeed anything close to them. When we reach those unprecedented temperatures, even though they are lower than the temperatures you experienced in the place designed around those temperatures, lots of things stop working.

That includes roads (which melt), bridges (which buckle because they can't expand as expansion gaps aren't designed that large) electricity (the overhead lines expand, droop, and break), utilities (the pipes melt and fail, or expand and fail, or don't fail but introduce points of failure due to fatigue and fail later), appliances (which burn out trying to give heat to an already-hotter environment), buildings (high-steel buildings expand, introducing points of failure), homes (which overheat) and even fields which spontaneously combust (or, more likely, ignite due to carelessness from smokers).

Which has no bearing on people’s ability to cool drinks at home.

Yeah, sure. The breakdown of electrical infrastructure and both home and industrial refrigeration units burning out - due to neither being designed to operate in 40-degree temperatures - isn't relevant to cooling drinks.

That’s how camping with a tent tends to work.

Alternatively we went for long drives with the windows open

Roads are infrastructure. I've brought up the difference in road surface composition on roads designed to work in regular 40-degree heat and those not designed to ever experience 40-degree heat more than once.

Campsites also use critical infrastructure, although doubtless you'll claim you just pitched a tent somewhere random and not at a designated campsite.

Still not an answer to the question.

You asked if I was saying "x", where "x" was your own reinterpretation of what I said. The answer is "no, otherwise I would have said that instead".

I wasn’t exaggerating for effect.

Yeah, I guessed. That's why I said "at best".

40 degrees is a challenge when you as a tourist doesn’t benefit from Italian standards

You benefitted from it by being there.

I don't know how to get this across to you if you keep ignoring it. Literally everything you see that isn't grown is specifically designed to withstand the ambient conditions in the location in which it is placed - and a lot of the stuff that's grown is specifically selected and planted for the same reasons. Roads, buildings, pipes, wires, cars, appliances, literally everything is made from stuff that will be perfectly fine across the entire range of conditions experienced within the market in which it's placed for its entire operational lifespan, and not outside that range because it's expensive to overengineer.

When you hit absolutely unprecedented temperatures, it all starts to fail, because it's not meant to withstand that. Stuff in Italy is supposed to keep working at 45, because they've had 40+ temperatures for a century. Stuff in the UK is not supposed to keep working at 40, because we've never had a 40+ temperature (or a 39+) until Tuesday.

As a result it all breaks down, while in Italy it's still fine to go out for a drive (the road hasn't melted) and grab a cold drink from an electric fridge which is still operating because both the electricity infrastructure and the fridge are inside operating temperatures. And have a cold shower, because the pipes haven't bent and ruptured.

 

[Moglet]

That includes roads (which melt)

Or, in the case of the A14 near Cambridge, melt and then form a nice miniature ramp for you to hit at 70mph: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-62219162

 

[RYAN]

Enters thread for the first time... Reads last page 🙄

(I guess we as Brits should just pretend our Housing, Infrastructure and Services aren't critically hampered and unsuitable for such extreme instances just to please and avoid having to constantly explain the contrary to Foreigners)

 

[Scaff]

Maybe the following will help @Nielsen understand just how deep the infrastructure side can go.

My front and back lawn are planted with two different types of grass. The front with standard grass that is normally fine in the UK, right now it looks like this, a look I think most people in the UK will be familiar with right now, it's also a wildfire fire hazard

In contrast my back garden is planted with Canada Green, a much more expensive seed (rough twice the cost of standard seed) often used on golf courses and designed to survive and grow rapidly, even in temps up to 49 degrees Celsius (and down to -40 Celsius), it looks like this.

They were both mown last at the same time, and the front gets more shade throughout the day.

Most grass in the UK isn't like Canada Green, as it doesn’t need to be, or rather it didn't used to need to be.

This is an example of why, even camping, infrastructure matters.

 

[UKMikey]

Enters thread for the first time... Reads last page 🙄

(I guess we as Brits should just pretend our Housing, Infrastructure and Services aren't critically hampered and unsuitable for such extreme instances just to please and avoid having to constantly explain the contrary to Foreigners)

C'mon, quit blaming foreigners. Most people get things just fine after the initial explanation.

This is a special case. It's like the Forza Horizon 5 is just a reskin and bought its E3 award thread all over again.

 

[dylansan]

Ok, take your precautions against the weather but also remember to be afraid. You like that better? I personally don’t as the very last thing someone needs during a heatwave is a stress-induced panic attack.

Acknowledging that the current situation presents many difficulties, and that people are currently suffering, is not fear-mongering. People do die from unprecedented heat. That does not mean anyone should be encouraged to panic, but it does mean that "Brits have nothing to fear at 40 degrees Celsius, as long as they do XYZ" is a bad take.

Some people are already afraid, either because they are particularly vulnerable, or because the infrastructure problems have already affected them. Whether or not there are things that can mitigate the dangers, telling anyone to calm down because it's not that bad is unhelpful.

Furthermore, acknowledging that climate change is a factor in this is not fear-mongering. In order to be proactive in preventing harm in the future, one must be aware of the root causes.

You seem to think that anyone who isn't calm and confident about dealing with this situation has been spun into a panic by some manipulative media network, when in reality, fear is a normal reaction to uncertainty. Fear is not something to be repressed, it's a natural emotion that can be assuaged with actionable solutions, not with sentiments like "it's fine, stop panicking".

 

[RYAN]

C'mon, quit blaming foreigners. Most people get things just fine after the initial explanation.

This is a special case. It's like the Forza Horizon 5 is just a reskin and bought its E3 award thread all over again.

Oh Come on, Don't be silly...I'm not "blaming" foreigners for anything... Its just the amount of ignorant people that think because other countries have had temps over 40° its not a problem for Britain. Then when confronted and presented with the good and obvious reasons why it is a big problem for us, They still come up with some obtuse argument that it still isn't. 🙄

 

[UKMikey]

Oh Come on, Don't be silly...I'm not "blaming" foreigners for anything... Its just the amount of ignorant people that think because other countries have had temps over 40° its not a problem for Britain.

Which, in this thread, is one and counting...

Then when confronted and presented with the good and obvious reasons why it is a big problem for us, They still come up with some obtuse argument that it still isn't. 🙄

You mean "he". As I and @Scaff have demonstrated, this isn't the first time this has happened.

 

[RYAN]

Which, in this thread, is one and counting...
You mean "he". As I and @Scaff have demonstrated, this isn't an isolated incident.

Thats the thing, Sadly it's not just the individual in this thread. I've come across quite a lot online in the last few days, None with quite the incessancy as "he" has displayed I must admit. (Although Yeah I am well aware there's some "Form" in that respect) 👍

 

[UKMikey]

Thats the thing, Sadly it's not just the individual in this thread. I've come across quite a lot online in the last few days, None with quite the incessancy as "he" has displayed I must admit. (Although Yeah I am well aware there's some "Form" in that respect) 👍

Next time you could always just send them this link.

Britain isn’t built to withstand 40°C – here is where infrastructure is most likely to fail

An expert assesses the weak links in a warming UK.

theconversation.com

 

[sirjim73]

Maybe the following will help @Nielsen understand just how deep the infrastructure side can go.

My front and back lawn are planted with two different types of grass. The front with standard grass that is normally fine in the UK, right now it looks like this, a look I think most people in the UK will be familiar with right now, it's also a wildfire fire hazard

View attachment 1175217

In contrast my back garden is planted with Canada Green, a much more expensive seed (rough twice the cost of standard seed) often used on golf courses and designed to survive and grow rapidly, even in temps up to 49 degrees Celsius (and down to -40 Celsius), it looks like this.

View attachment 1175220

They were both mown last at the same time, and the front gets more shade throughout the day.

Most grass in the UK isn't like Canada Green, as it doesn’t need to be, or rather it didn't used to need to be.

This is an example of why, even camping, infrastructure matters.

So, do you believe in the old adage that the grass is always greener on the other side? 🤔

 

[Roo]

So, do you believe in the old adage that the grass is always greener on the other side? 🤔

Only when he's in the front garden.

(That's not a euphemism.)

 

[TheCracker]

After Tuesday's record breaking heat, it reached about 38 here, falling short of the predicted 41, its now 14 degrees and pissing it down - just in time for the cities annual outdoor music festival...

 

[Nielsen]

YeaIt's average is 60%, as I have already posted, however it's humidity highs are in mid-summer and regularly reach 90%, which I have also already posted. That is not a dry climate, or even one that is comparatively dry, which was the claim you made, "Dubai is coincidentally one of the less humid places".

It’s better to look at averages when comparing the climate of any given location. What I said wasn’t wrong.

You actually need someone to tell you that a device designed for convenience in a car shouldn't be used as a direct comparison to scientific instrumentation?

OK, for those that need it. You can't trust the external temp a car tells you to be as accurate as a scientific instrument used to obtain meteorological data, they typically in summer overread by between 3 and 6 degrees Celsius.

Why Your Car Thermometer is Wrong | The Weather Channel

Your car thermometer says it's how hot outside? Here's why that's probably not accurate. - Articles from The Weather Channel | weather.com

weather.com

I don’t remember having ever noticed a big difference between the readings on car thermometers and temperature readings elsewhere. In my experience they are reliable enough, unless you read them immediately after a car has been parked in the sun for hours. I don’t think these slight misreadings are worthy of discussion, and it might also explain why drivers usually don’t get pulled over by police for slightly exceeding the speed limit.

I've also now lost count of the number of times the difference in infrastructure has been explains and ignored by you, and yes you will have used it regardless of if you slept in a tent or not. If you visited a town, village or city, if you drove on roads, went into a public building, shop or other structure you experienced it. It would be literally impossible to have travelled in the country without experiencing it.

I do not ignore the difference, but I did not benefit from it. On a camping trip you typically spend the majority of time outdoors. It’s the very nature of camping with a tent. Experiencing an air conditioned supermarket for fives minutes wasn’t decisive in avoiding a collapse. If anything, the heat hits you extra hard like a dizzying wall when leaving an air conditioned space. Hydration and sunlight shelter kept me upright.

Cold drinks and stay in the shade, anything more is just the media being overly dramatic.

I haven’t said “anything more” is the media being overly dramatic. It’s describing the incident as a catastrophe before the outcome is even fully known that is uncalled for.

I'm paraphrasing, but this is basically a re-run of your bad-advice and scientific illiteracy from the Covid thread

You need to exemplify something concrete in order for me to know what you mean. Off-topic though, so please stick to addressing the points raised in this discussion.

I can agree with that, thankfully I myself didn't reach that point (although I was tempted). This time around we weren't in a critical situation regarding reservoir levels, but there have been occasions in the past 10, 20 years were we have had heatwaves with severe drought levels. It's not unfeasible that a combination of the two in the future would result in constant showering not being a viable option.

Sure, but then you would probably also see a shift in my attitude. Prolonged heatwave with water rationing is a whole different ballpark, especially in countries where living conditions are not built to withstand it.

Your (somewhat provocative) post detailing your Italian hotel stay did kick off the debate up above, regardless if that was your intent...

It was camping with a tent. Apparently everyone just assumed I was in an air conditioned hotel. I’ve had hotel stays in Provence, France in July at other occasions during heatwaves, but they weren’t even air conditioned.

And yes, it wasn't due to last any longer than 40-odd hours... this time around. Some of the older generations here (in the UK, not GTP specifically) will point to the summer of '76 with weeks of 30*C+ (and occasional spikes) and how much of a nightmare that was and how they soldiered on to boot... the worry that I and many others have is the temperature trend is irrevocably pointing one way.

I share that concern.

How long will it be before weeks of 38*C+ (which, just to remind you, was the national maximum temperature record until a couple days ago) becomes a common occurrence? To repeat myself and others, as it stands the UK is simply not built to tolerate those kind of temperatures. And it's not just us; France, Spain, Portugal are/were on fire, at present it seems like 1/3rd of the continental US is currently being scorched (37*C+), the Jiangxi Delta has been topping 40*C for the past couple of weeks. And that's just listing off events happening at present, the Vancouver heat/hell dome is still fresh in my memory. If this all seems like Alarmist tripe peddled by the media then... good. We should be alarmed.

The inherently alarming thing is not climate change itself caused by human activity. It’s the rate at which things are being done to reverse it, or at least combat its worst side-effects. The media’s sensational attitude is not helping one bit when the consequences are felt on an unprecedented scale.

How are you still not getting this?

I am, always was.

Yeah, sure. The breakdown of electrical infrastructure and both home and industrial refrigeration units burning out - due to neither being designed to operate in 40-degree temperatures - isn't relevant to cooling drinks.

All the articles I’ve come across on this matter refer to supermarket fridges. Those are more complicated installations to maintain. Home fridges may also be at risk, but the vast majority of people probably only experienced reduced cooling performance, like you did.

Roads are infrastructure. I've brought up the difference in road surface composition on roads designed to work in regular 40-degree heat and those not designed to ever experience 40-degree heat more than once.

I didn’t drive the Italian roads in order to stay afloat. Maybe I would have benefitted in case I did collapse from the heat, but I didn’t by being cautious about fluid intake and sticking to shadows. I largely got to experience how lukewarm soft drinks and sunlight shelter suffices for survival, and it has been my message from the get go (intended to reassure Brits who at least had the added benefit of being at home).

Campsites also use critical infrastructure, although doubtless you'll claim you just pitched a tent somewhere random and not at a designated campsite.

I used the shower cabins on the campsite to clean myself. Though, a consistent water supply is not a guaranteed security even by Italian standards. Water is currently being rationed:

Drought emergency declared in northern Italy - BBC News

The drought is threatening more than 30% of Italy's farm produce, an agricultural union warns.

www.bbc.com

You benefitted from it by being there.

99% of the time I spent there was outdoors or in a car without air conditioning. Let’s not pretend that the remaining 1% (air conditioned supermarkets and campsite showers) saved me.

I don't know how to get this across to you if you keep ignoring it. Literally everything you see that isn't grown is specifically designed to withstand the ambient conditions in the location in which it is placed - and a lot of the stuff that's grown is specifically selected and planted for the same reasons. Roads, buildings, pipes, wires, cars, appliances, literally everything is made from stuff that will be perfectly fine across the entire range of conditions experienced within the market in which it's placed for its entire operational lifespan, and not outside that range because it's expensive to overengineer.

When you hit absolutely unprecedented temperatures, it all starts to fail, because it's not meant to withstand that. Stuff in Italy is supposed to keep working at 45, because they've had 40+ temperatures for a century. Stuff in the UK is not supposed to keep working at 40, because we've never had a 40+ temperature (or a 39+) until Tuesday.

As a result it all breaks down, while in Italy it's still fine to go out for a drive (the road hasn't melted) and grab a cold drink from an electric fridge which is still operating because both the electricity infrastructure and the fridge are inside operating temperatures. And have a cold shower, because the pipes haven't bent and ruptured.

I acknowledge all these risk factors, but you would be very unlucky to experience everything breaking down at once. Even then, drinks don’t need to be cold in order to hydrate the body, although cold fluids are recommended to best prevent oneself from overheating.

Maybe the following will help @Nielsen understand just how deep the infrastructure side can go.

My front and back lawn are planted with two different types of grass. The front with standard grass that is normally fine in the UK, right now it looks like this, a look I think most people in the UK will be familiar with right now, it's also a wildfire fire hazard

View attachment 1175217

In contrast my back garden is planted with Canada Green, a much more expensive seed (rough twice the cost of standard seed) often used on golf courses and designed to survive and grow rapidly, even in temps up to 49 degrees Celsius (and down to -40 Celsius), it looks like this.

View attachment 1175220

They were both mown last at the same time, and the front gets more shade throughout the day.

Most grass in the UK isn't like Canada Green, as it doesn’t need to be, or rather it didn't used to need to be.

This is an example of why, even camping, infrastructure matters.

All this happened during the heatwave? I’ve experienced dried out lawns like yours here in Denmark several times over the years. Typically after weeks of sun exposure around 25 degrees and without rainfall. However, the great thing about grass is how it always seems to come back alive once rain finally returns.

 

[Scaff]

It’s better to look at averages when comparing the climate of any given location. What I said wasn’t wrong.

We are discussing climate extremes here, so no, looking at the averages isn't better, it's misleading.

Why is it so hard for you to acknowledge that your claim was wrong?

I don’t remember having ever noticed a big difference between the readings on car thermometers and temperature readings elsewhere. In my experience they are reliable enough, unless you read them immediately after a car has been parked in the sun for hours. I don’t think these slight misreadings are worthy of discussion,

That's a lot of words to avoid acknowledging you were wrong (again).

Oh, you know the hand waving thing you claim not to do? This is exactly that.

and it might also explain why drivers usually don’t get pulled over by police for slightly exceeding the speed limit.

And you also don't know how speedometers work either it seems.

UK speed camera tolerances: Met police lowers speed limit enforcement threshold | Auto Express

The Met police has lowered its speeding enforcement threshold and speeding fines in London have gone up

www.autoexpress.co.uk

I do not ignore the difference, but I did not benefit from it. On a camping trip you typically spend the majority of time outdoors. It’s the very nature of camping with a tent. Experiencing an air conditioned supermarket for fives minutes wasn’t decisive in avoiding a collapse. If anything, the heat hits you extra hard like a dizzying wall when leaving an air conditioned space. Hydration and sunlight shelter kept me upright.

You spent a week in Italy and didn't benefit from Italian infrastructure?

Thats either wrong or you don't understand what infrastructure is.

I haven’t said “anything more” is the media being overly dramatic. It’s describing the incident as a catastrophe before the outcome is even fully known that is uncalled for.

We do know what the outcome will be if changes aren't made.

You need to exemplify something concrete in order for me to know what you mean. Off-topic though, so please stick to addressing the points raised in this discussion.

I already have, once again, you use anecdotal claims as if they are fact, get proven wrong, and then double down on your inaccurate nonsense.

All this happened during the heatwave?

Yes.

I’ve experienced dried out lawns like yours here in Denmark several times over the years. Typically after weeks of sun exposure around 25 degrees and without rainfall. However, the great thing about grass is how it always seems to come back alive once rain finally returns.

Way to utterly miss the ****ing point.

 

[Nielsen]

We are discussing climate extremes here, so no, looking at the averages isn't better, it's misleading.

I’ll refer to a previous comment of mine on the subject:

75% humidity combined with hot weather the UK is no different to 75% humidity combined with hot weather anywhere else on the planet. 85% humidity in South East Asia with temperatures above 30 degrees is not uncommon in that region. Sure, the impact on society is different in the UK because it is uncommon but the “catastrophe” is very much survivable if you follow basic guidelines.

This is not me downplaying the UK incident. It’s reassurance, but you’ve already said you don’t want to be reassured by someone who once went to Italy…

Why is it so hard for you to acknowledge that your claim was wrong?

This claim: “Dubai is coincidentally one of the less humid places.”?

Because it’s true when looking at averages compared to other countries. Not a consideration meant to deny that extremities can occur in Dubai. They can pretty much anywhere, as the UK and other northern countries just demonstrated.

That's a lot of words to avoid acknowledging you were wrong (again).

I have already acknowledged it by accepting the temperature records listed in official records. But ok, I was wrong to rely on the car thermometer. Not that it drastically changes the point I made on coping in temperatures above 40 C.

And you also don't know how speedometers work either it seems.

UK speed camera tolerances: Met police lowers speed limit enforcement threshold | Auto Express

The Met police has lowered its speeding enforcement threshold and speeding fines in London have gone up

www.autoexpress.co.uk

I actually do as I have often tracked my cars with a GPS speed reading. Car speedometers tend to exaggerate slightly, hence you don’t get pulled over when going a bit too fast according to the speedometer. It never occurred to me that the thermometer could be slightly unreliable as well. Probably because the inaccuracy is minimal.

You spent a week in Italy and didn't benefit from Italian infrastructure?

Thats either wrong or you don't understand what infrastructure is.

I’ll repeat, camping lifestyle. It’s primitive as heck, in case you didn’t know, especially with a tent. The high likelihood that nearby roads won’t warp out of shape is largely irrelevant.

We do know what the outcome will be if changes aren't made.

I was talking about this incident. Not the next one, or the one after that. Important distinction.

I already have, once again, you use anecdotal claims as if they are fact, get proven wrong, and then double down on your inaccurate nonsense.

As far as I’m concerned, I’ve only been proven wrong on the reliability of car thermometers. I didn’t even claim these are accurate, but merely that I have relied on them. You all made it through the heatwave by hydrating yourselves in the shadows, proving my initial point that you had nothing to fear this time around by following these basic guidelines, as the heatwave was brief. Things would obviously get more complicated had it lasted much longer with additional implications on society.

Way to utterly miss the ****ing point.

Was there a point other than a certain type of grass not being as suited to heat exposure as the other? Dried out grass is not critical in the slightest, so what’s the actual concern?

 

[Scaff]

I’ll refer to a previous comment of mine on the subject:

This is not me downplaying the UK incident. It’s reassurance, but you’ve already said you don’t want to be reassured by someone who once went to Italy…

Yes, yes it is.

You're downplaying it because you didn't account for, and still refuse to account for the scale of the differences in infrastructure and the totality of the impact as a result.

This claim: “Dubai is coincidentally one of the less humid places.”?

Because it’s true when looking at averages compared to other countries. Not a consideration meant to deny that extremities can occur in Dubai. They can pretty much anywhere, as the UK and other northern countries just demonstrated.

The context has always been the extremes in those countries, not the averages, that you need to move the goalposts is quite, quite clear.

I have already acknowledged it by accepting the temperature records listed in official records. But ok, I was wrong to rely on the car thermometer. Not that it drastically changes the point I made on coping in temperatures above 40 C.

Finally. That should have been the reaction days ago, even if you are still denying the infrastructure side exists, but we can work on that now.

I actually do as I have often tracked my cars with a GPS speed reading. Car speedometers tend to exaggerate slightly, hence you don’t get pulled over when going a bit too fast according to the speedometer.

Then why on earth did you ask the question, actually don't bother, that answers itself.

It never occurred to me that the thermometer could be slightly unreliable as well. Probably because the inaccuracy is minimal.

3 to 6 degrees Celcius in temp is not minimal inaccuracy, and given that you are talking about a car old enough to lack AC (your claim) then it's very likely to be at the higher end of this, it means you may well not have encountered temps above 40 degrees Celcius at all.

I’ll repeat, camping lifestyle. It’s primitive as heck, in case you didn’t know, especially with a tent. The high likelihood that nearby roads won’t warp out of shape is largely irrelevant.

It is if you managed to arrive and leave

I was talking about this incident. Not the next one, or the one after that. Important distinction.

They were talking about both, but we've already established that you and context have a tenuous relationship at best.

As far as I’m concerned, I’ve only been proven wrong on the reliability of car thermometers. I didn’t even claim these are accurate, but merely that I have relied on them.

You might want to go back and re-read that chain of conversation, as retconning it in this way isn't a good look.

You made a factual claim with zero references to car thermometers at all, that only came into it when the accuracy of your claim was factually rebutted. It's gone from 45 degrees for a week to you might not have even seen 40 degrees.

You all made it through the heatwave by hydrating yourselves in the shadows, proving my initial point that you had nothing to fear this time around by following these basic guidelines, as the heatwave was brief. Things would obviously get more complicated had it lasted much longer with additional implications on society.

No, we didn't all get through it by "hydrating yourselves in the shadows", because GTP UK membership isn't the entire country.

Here's an incomplete list of things that didn't get through it by "hydrating yourselves in the shadows"

• The people that will have died
• The damage caused by wildfires, including the houses that burned down (Tuesday was the busiest day since WW2 for London Fire Brigade)
• The road damage
• The rail lines that buckled stopping passenger and freight distribution
• The electricity lines that failed due to expansion
• The waterlines that failed due to soil duration and heat cycle effects
• The people/businesses that are still affected by the water and power issues
• Schools that closed due to AC not being able to cope
• Restrictions put on outdoor events due to fire risks
• Outdoor events canceled

Was there a point other than a certain type of grass not being as suited to heat exposure as the other? Dried out grass is not critical in the slightest, so what’s the actual concern?

You don't seem to understand what causes wildfires do you (awaits the third 'i knew that really' retcon in this thread alone)?

More in this heatwave than we normally see all summer in my county, and that has been repeated all over the country.

In this example from London, you can clearly see the drier grass and brush have burnt, but the areas of green have survived.

How'd the "hydrating yourselves in the shadows" work out for the inhabitants of those houses?


More infrastructure matters info.

 

[dylansan]

Here's an incomplete list of things that didn't get through it by "hydrating yourselves in the shadows"

• The people that will have died
• The damage caused by wildfires, including the houses that burned down (Tuesday was the busiest day since WW2 for London Fire Brigade)
• The road damage
• The rail lines that buckled stopping passenger and freight distribution
• The electricity lines that failed due to expansion
• The waterlines that failed due to soil duration and heat cycle effects
• The people/businesses that are still affected by the water and power issues
• Schools that closed due to AC not being able to cope
• Restrictions put on outdoor events due to fire risks
• Outdoor events canceled

"Stop trying to scare people"

 

[MatskiMonk]

It's beginning to sounds like our 'elite' government might have been hood-winked by the Rwandans...

 

[sirjim73]

It's beginning to sounds like our 'elite' government might have been hood-winked by the Rwandans...

Do we know what the humidity percentage is in Rwanda? And is the camping good?

 

[Nielsen]

Yes, yes it is.

You're downplaying it because you didn't account for, and still refuse to account for the scale of the differences in infrastructure and the totality of the impact as a result.

Yet I have acknowledged the differences. You keep ignoring the sheer importance of hydration and shelter, which must be why you think I’m downplaying everything else by stressing that importance.

The context has always been the extremes in those countries, not the averages, that you need to move the goalposts is quite, quite clear.

You’re seemingly still missing the point. The average humidity levels in Malaysia matter for comparison purposes because they come close to the extremes experienced in the UK. It’s a tropical climate where people actually live in the humid heat for consecutive months. Sure, Malaysia may have higher standards in air conditioning and such, but Malaysia also gets to experience extreme conditions for much longer durations than the UK did a few days ago.

Finally. That should have been the reaction days ago, even if you are still denying the infrastructure side exists, but we can work on that now.

There is more than one way to acknowledge something. My reaction is completely irrelevant to the point. At least I don’t resort to “work on your wording” when I stand corrected. Apparently that’s your default response to being wrong.

Then why on earth did you ask the question, actually don't bother, that answers itself.

I stressed a point by referring to speedometers. Not sure how you read it as a question.

3 to 6 degrees Celcius in temp is not minimal inaccuracy, and given that you are talking about a car old enough to lack AC (your claim) then it's very likely to be at the higher end of this, it means you may well not have encountered temps above 40 degrees Celcius at all.

3 - 6 degrees… I have no idea are you getting these numbers from, and I don’t think you even know it yourself. We’ve already seen an “official record” stating 44 degrees Celsius. Also, cars don’t necessarily have to be old to lack air condition, but in my case it was a Citroën from 1999.

It is if you managed to arrive and leave

I didn’t leave because of the heat.

They were talking about both, but we've already established that you and context have a tenuous relationship at best.

Nonsense.

You might want to go back and re-read that chain of conversation, as retconning it in this way isn't a good look.

I have already read the chain a few times, and it’s predominantly characterized by incomprehension toward my points. But sure, I’m the “illiterate”.

You made a factual claim with zero references to car thermometers at all, that only came into it when the accuracy of your claim was factually rebutted. It's gone from 45 degrees for a week to you might not have even seen 40 degrees.

Are you actually suggesting it’s abnormal to rely on car thermometers while on holiday? Don’t forget that 2006 was a different time. Anyway, I definitely experienced temperatures well above 40 C. Not sure why you’re still doubtful when it has already been documented that temperatures peaked at 44 C in Lombardy during a heatwave in July 2006. Exceeding 40 degrees in the Mediterranean region is not as extremely rare as you seem to think it is.

No, we didn't all get through it by "hydrating yourselves in the shadows", because GTP UK membership isn't the entire country

Hydration applies to everyone.

Here's an incomplete list of things that didn't get through it by "hydrating yourselves in the shadows"

The people that will have died

Don’t try to claim that dehydration and overheating had nothing to do with it.

• The damage caused by wildfires, including the houses that burned down (Tuesday was the busiest day since WW2 for London Fire Brigade)
• The road damage
• The rail lines that buckled stopping passenger and freight distribution
• The electricity lines that failed due to expansion
• The waterlines that failed due to soil duration and heat cycle effects
• The people/businesses that are still affected by the water and power issues
• Schools that closed due to AC not being able to cope
• Restrictions put on outdoor events due to fire risks
• Outdoor events canceled

Infrastructural damage resulting from a brief heatwave is totally unrelated to the point I stressed on the significance of hydration and shelter.

You don't seem to understand what causes wildfires do you (awaits the third 'i knew that really' retcon in this thread alone)?

Look up the wildfires happening in places like California, Australia, Greece and Spain. These are complicated by environments drying out for several consecutive weeks without rainfall. We’re talking about bushes and trees being thirsty at root level. The dry grass in your garden is an incomparable hazard.

More in this heatwave than we normally see all summer in my county, and that has been repeated all over the country.

In this example from London, you can clearly see the drier grass and brush have burnt, but the areas of green have survived.

View attachment 1175799

How'd the "hydrating yourselves in the shadows" work out for the inhabitants of those houses?

The Dagenham fire was an isolated tragedy complicated by the weather. After all, fires break out in London every day. You cannot say the same for the massive wildfires happening in other countries. On several occasions these have have obliterated entire towns during extreme dry spells. At that point infrastructure doesn’t matter.

More infrastructure matters info.

I thought you were finally done implying I don’t know. At this point you’re clearly just trying to insult me for making a point you for whatever reason prefer to disregard. Good job testing my patience instead of making an effort to have a discussion.

 

[Scaff]

Yet I have acknowledged the differences. You keep ignoring the sheer importance of hydration and shelter, which must be why you think I’m downplaying everything else by stressing that importance.

I've not, quote me doing so.

You’re seemingly still missing the point. The average humidity levels in Malaysia matter for comparison purposes because they come close to the extremes experienced in the UK. It’s a tropical climate where people actually live in the humid heat for consecutive months. Sure, Malaysia may have higher standards in air conditioning and such, but Malaysia also gets to experience extreme conditions for much longer durations than the UK did a few days ago.

There is more than one way to acknowledge something. My reaction is completely irrelevant to the point. At least I don’t resort to “work on your wording” when I stand corrected. Apparently that’s your default response to being wrong.

I'm not missing the point at all, I know that because I'm the one who raised Dubai in the thread, as an example of having extreme temp/humidity (that I had experienced, in summer) and it being of no bearing at all in a comparison with the UK because of infrastructure differences. You are the one that then tried to claim Dubia didn't count because it's not humid enough.

I stressed a point by referring to speedometers. Not sure how you read it as a question.

You tried, but given that the reason is totally different you clearly didn't know why the differences occur, as such, you not understanding how car speedos work as well as not understanding how car thermometers work was a valid and accurate observation.

3 - 6 degrees… I have no idea are you getting these numbers from, and I don’t think you even know it yourself. We’ve already seen an “official record” stating 44 degrees Celsius. Also, cars don’t necessarily have to be old to lack air condition, but in my case it was a Citroën from 1999.

The source I provided that you clearly didn't actually read, it's actually a fairly conservative difference, this source cites differences of 25 degrees F (which is closer to 14 Celcius)

I didn’t leave because of the heat.

You said you went on drives with the windows open to cool down, how did you manage that without resorting to using the infrastructure? That aside, did you not leave your tent for the entire week? It's literally impossible to have stayed in Italy and not used the infrastructure, and attempting to claim so is absurd

Nonsense.

The UK media was talking about the heatwave, how to stay safe in it, whatvrisks and dangers to be aware of. its current impact, and how it relates to climate change both now and in the future?

Odd, here's one from five days ago doing just that.

Climate change: Heat deaths could triple by 2050

The government's advisors on climate change warn that Britain's homes are not fit for hotter summers.

www.bbc.co.uk

You can literally follow the timeline of reports seeing both sides being covered.

Extreme UK weather: flights halted as runways melt and temperatures exceed 38C in parts of England – as it happened

Flights affected at Luton and and RAF Brize Norton as mercury hits 38.1C in Santon Downham, Suffolk, by 4pm

www.theguardian.com

Here are all of the BBC ones doing just the same:

UK heatwaves - BBC News

All the latest content about UK heatwaves from the BBC.

www.bbc.co.uk

I have already read the chain a few times, and it’s predominantly characterized by incomprehension toward my points. But sure, I’m the “illiterate”.

Over your head once again.

Are you actually suggesting it’s abnormal to rely on car thermometers while on holiday? Don’t forget that 2006 was a different time. Anyway, I definitely experienced temperatures well above 40 C. Not sure why you’re still doubtful when it has already been documented that temperatures peaked at 44 C in Lombardy during a heatwave in July 2006. Exceeding 40 degrees in the Mediterranean region is not as extremely rare as you seem to think it is.

I'm saying that your anecdotal evidence is just that, and your claim and the resulting reality are quite a way apart, and yes I'm saying (and already have done) that anyone expecting cars thermometers to have the same accuracy (or close) to that of a scientific instrument is being foolish.

Hydration applies to everyone.

Quote me saying it doesn't.

Don’t try to claim that dehydration and overheating had nothing to do with it.

I've not, quote me doing so.

Infrastructural damage resulting from a brief heatwave is totally unrelated to the point I stressed on the significance of hydration and shelter.

No, it's not, because the infrastructure has an impact on that hydration and shelter.

Look up the wildfires happening in places like California, Australia, Greece and Spain. These are complicated by environments drying out for several consecutive weeks without rainfall. We’re talking about bushes and trees being thirsty at root level. The dry grass in your garden is an incomparable hazard.

Once again you're ignoring the difference in infrastructure, do you actually think that the plants growing in those climates are the same as the ones in the UK

The Dagenham fire was an isolated tragedy complicated by the weather. After all, fires break out in London every day. You cannot say the same for the massive wildfires happening in other countries. On several occasions these have have obliterated entire towns during extreme dry spells. At that point infrastructure doesn’t matter.

No, it wasn't isolated at all, you also seem to have ignored the fact that the London Fire Brigade had its busiest day since WW2, yes London has fires every day, but when it's pushed to a level only exceeded when the city was literally being firebombed then it's far from a normal day!

I thought you were finally done implying I don’t know. At this point you’re clearly just trying to insult me for making a point you for whatever reason prefer to disregard. Good job testing my patience instead of making an effort to have a discussion.

I've not insulted you, what I've done is point out your use of repeated and continued logical fallacies.

 

[McLaren]

I’ll just say as a Texan where these sort of temps (& then some over the last few days) are normal for us, wildfires, droughts, electricity, death, etc. are still a major risk here & that’s with us accustomed to these conditions every year.

So, when you start seeing similar weather in a place like the UK, it should become an obvious major cause of concern that isn’t up for questioning/debate.

It is currently 91F here and will get up to 101F during my work day. You Brits have my sympathy for having to endure such temps. It sucks regardless if you’re used to it or not.

 

[sirjim73]

Just going out to get some popcorn...

 

[McLaren]

Just going out to get some popcorn...

At least it’ll be ready by the time you get home.

 

[Famine]

Mild correction: apparently our railway tracks are actually designed to operate at up to 27C air temperatures "unstressed" and down to around -10C, although they're considered safe at up to 30C for short periods. Main network tracks in France, Spain, and Italy are heat-treated differently, and designed to operate from 0-45C.

It all comes down to the pre-stessing of the steel, and a track can be 20 degrees hotter than the surrounding air.

 

[sirjim73]

Mild correction: apparently our railway tracks are actually designed to operate at up to 27C air temperatures "unstressed" and down to around -10C, although they're considered safe at up to 30C for short periods. Main network tracks in France, Spain, and Italy are heat-treated differently, and designed to operate from 0-45C.

It all comes down to the pre-stessing of the steel, and a track can be 20 degrees hotter than the surrounding air.

There's been plenty of hot air in this thread, it seems

 

[Scaff]

NASA before and after images show the extent of heat damage to vegetation in the UK.

UK weather: Dramatic satellite pictures show the impact of the heatwave as high temperatures hit country

The dramatic change in the landscape comes after the UK hit record temperatures on Tuesday, with Coningsby in Lincolnshire reaching a sweltering 40.3C (104.5F) - the first time since records began that the mercury has exceeded 40C in the country.

news.sky.com

 

[Scaff]

More weather related fires, including a number of grass fires around London.

London and Surrey fires: Firefighters battle large blazes around the capital with one declared a 'major incident'

A fire in Hayes can be seen from across west London, with the LFB adding 70 firefighters are at the scene. It says people in the area should close doors and windows.

news.sky.com