Britain - The Official Thread

[Fezzik]

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To be fair to Gove he did acknowledge that

Kemi Badenoch: I would give JK Rowling a peerage

The Tory leadership candidate says ‘all sorts of oddballs and bad people’ are attacking sex-based rights activists

www.thetimes.com

Kemi going for the Mumsnet/Mail terf vote

 

[HenrySwanson]

"Envy of the world"

 

[XJ40]

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"Envy of the world"

I live in Scotland, less densely populated than South of the border. Getting a GP appointment is... awkward. Unless I'm dead or dying I tend to turn up at 5 to 8 and speak to the receptionists, amongst the ringing phones.

Over my life I've had several operations after speaking to the frankly awesome staff from initial GP to Consultants/specialists.

The NHS has always been there when I have needed it.

Now, devil's advocate: I think it would have been a different story if I had lived in bigger cities such as London or Birmingham. Even Glasgow or Edinburgh. So many more people requiring the same service.

Now let's imagine I live in the USA.

"Envy of the world"

Yes, very much so.

 

[HenrySwanson]

I live in Scotland, less densely populated than South of the border. Getting a GP appointment is... awkward. Unless I'm dead or dying I tend to turn up at 5 to 8 and speak to the receptionists, amongst the ringing phones.

Over my life I've had several operations after speaking to the frankly awesome staff from initial GP to Consultants/specialists.

The NHS has always been there when I have needed it.

Now, devil's advocate: I think it would have been a different story if I had lived in bigger cities such as London or Birmingham. Even Glasgow or Edinburgh. So many more people requiring the same service.

Now let's imagine I live in the USA.

"Envy of the world"

Yes, very much so.

This doesn't make sense. The world is not the UK and USA only.

The NHS needs both funding and reforming.

 

[Liquid]

In Slovakia, I went for a check up yesterday for my broken collar bone. I had checked carefully because I have to work:

"Is the clinic open in the afternoon?"
"Yes, until 5pm."
"And the X-ray department?"
"Yes, same times."

Okay, so I went there after work.

"Oh, the doctor's not here. He always leaves at 12."

Sure, the language barrier is one thing but why the radiology clinic and actual X-raying operations are open for four hours without attending doctors I do not know.

There's not a country in the world without a messed up healthcare system. The sheer scale of the operation guarantees it.

The NHS needs both funding and reforming.

I agree. But reform in the sense of modernising (old computers and wacky processes) rather than streamlining (cutting jobs and services in the name of efficiency).

 

[HenrySwanson]

There's not a country in the world without a messed up healthcare system. The sheer scale of the operation guarantees it.

There will be good and bad ones. I'm thinking more your South Koreas and Denmarks of the world.

I agree. But reform in the sense of modernising (old computers and wacky processes) rather than streamlining (cutting jobs and services in the name of efficiency).

Definitely both. The capital budget has been abysmal but things like this are ludicrous. Plus there's the complete shambles of the ARRS money and the MAP/ANP/etc cockup

EDIT: Jesus, why does that post comparing it to ONE country get so many likes?! It really is like a religion

 

[XJ40]

This doesn't make sense. The world is not the UK and USA only.

The NHS needs both funding and reforming.

In what way does it not make sense to you?

I have relayed my experience of the NHS from my corner of the UK, a positive one, been unsure about busier parts of the UK. And glad I am not in the USA as the costs involved (I do not know the dollar figure, but probably more than my house) would have been mind numbing to me.

Also regarding "The world is not the UK and the USA only", I am aware of that....

 

[HenrySwanson]

In what way does it not make sense to you?

I have relayed my experience of the NHS from my corner of the UK, a positive one, been unsure about busier parts of the UK. And glad I am not in the USA as the costs involved (I do not know the dollar figure, but probably more than my house) would have been mind numbing to me.

Also regarding "The world is not the UK and the USA only", I am aware of that....

Because someone could have an equally positive experience in any other country (including the USA) and conclude their health service is the envy of the world.

It's anecdotal.

I mean, I'm happy you've had that experience, but the reality is we have stories such as:

Leeds adult ADHD clinic shut for referrals due to 10-year wait

Thousands of adults are currently waiting for an assessment with the Leeds-based service.

www.bbc.co.uk

It goes to my point in another thread that this part of the board is kinda stuck in the 2000s-2010s for whatever reason.

 

[XJ40]

Because someone could have an equally positive experience in any other country (including the USA) and conclude their health service is the envy of the world.

It's anecdotal.

I mean, I'm happy you've had that experience, but the reality is we have stories such as:

Leeds adult ADHD clinic shut for referrals due to 10-year wait

Thousands of adults are currently waiting for an assessment with the Leeds-based service.

www.bbc.co.uk

It goes to my point in another thread that this part of the board is kinda stuck in the 2000s-2010s for whatever reason.

And if said someone had a positive experience of their health care in another country would that make no sense to you either?

Not to be too personal, but what is your own experience of the NHS? Or if outside the UK, wherever you live?

 

[HenrySwanson]

And if said someone had a positive experience of their health care in another country would that make no sense to you either?

It wouldn't make sense to conclude that their system is the envy of the world based on a sample size of one.

Not to be too personal, bit what is your own experience of the NHS? Or if outside the UK, wherever you live?

User of the NHS, worked and studied in it.

 

[XJ40]

It wouldn't make sense to conclude that their system is the envy of the world based on a sample size of one.

User of the NHS, worked and studied in it.

No, it wouldn't. The photo you supplied about a doctor having to do computer trickery to print out information (while a long winded way of doing things) then stating in quotes "Envy of the world", implies (to me) that the NHS is in the stone age (as per photo). It isn't.

The UK health service has skilled people who care.

Could we do better with efficency? Absolutely. But throwing money at the issue will not solve it. (I didn't say you said that)

"We will never have enough resource to do what we want to, so we must intelligently use what we have"

A quote I was taught as a student nurse, a very long time ago.

 

[HenrySwanson]

No, it wouldn't. The photo you supplied about a doctor having to do computer trickery to print out information (while a long winded way of doing things) then stating in quotes "Envy of the world", implies (to me) that the NHS is in the stone age (as per photo). It isn't.

The UK health service has skilled people who care.

Could we do better with efficency? Absolutely. But throwing money at the issue will not solve it. (I didn't say you said that)

"We will never have enough resource to do what we want to, so we must intelligently use what we have"

A quote I was taught as a student nurse, a very long time ago.

The NHS itself as a whole isn't in the Stone Age, but it isn't the envy of the world either. Parts of the NHS are seemingly stuck in the Stone Age, while parts of it are world-leading.

 

[XJ40]

The NHS itself as a whole isn't in the Stone Age, but it isn't the envy of the world either. Parts of the NHS are seemingly stuck in the Stone Age, while parts of it are world-leading.

Right, so how do you and I propose to sort it?

Given the area where I work, it has has a massive shock in the increase of social, elderly and youth care.

Not direct medical care, but more mental and social care not within a hospital building.

It seems to me that the responsibility of care has passed from parents to the state. At some point people must take responsibility for the care of their relatives. This will ease the financial burden on the NHS. Got an older relative that's a bit dottled? Look after them. They looked after you. My grandparents passed from dementia and cancer, and my mum and I did everything we could until the point where the NHS absolutely HAD to take over.

 

[XJ40]

@HenrySwanson I think the "Envy of the world" comes more from the model of the service, free of cost from the point of view of the service user, rather than the abilities of the personnel within.

 

[HenrySwanson]

Right, so how do you and I propose to sort it?

Given the area where I work, it has has a massive shock in the increase of social, elderly and youth care.

Not direct medical care, but more mental and social care not within a hospital building.

It seems to me that the responsibility of care has passed from parents to the state. At some point people must take responsibility for the care of their relatives. This will ease the financial burden on the NHS. Got an older relative that's a bit dottled? Look after them. They looked after you. My grandparents passed from dementia and cancer, and my mum and I did everything we could until the point where the NHS absolutely HAD to take over.

I can turn into the pub bore on this so I'll keep it to bullet points but am happy to discuss them in more depth if you want:

• Raise National Insurance. We can't expect world-class healthcare at bargain basement prices. The public needs to be realistic.
• Have a higher capital budget. Some hospitals are so bad that they're dangerous, and systems are outdated and differ between Trusts, leading to:
• Embrace digital healthcare. This is being done atm so I'm not worried about that.
• Improve social care. Easier said than done, but a lot of the problems come from an aging population with a care industry that has been chronically underfunded. Many patients are stuck in hospital mffd (medically fit for discharge) but because of the broken system they block beds.
• Long-term investment in training doctors. Divert the ARRS budget into paying for actual doctors rather than "noctors". Restructure the specialty training programmes so more places are available for doctors wishing to enter specialty training thereby reducing competition.
• Focus more on preventative medicine. Again, the NHS is moving in a good direction here so that's reassuring.
• Put clinicians in charge. I don't know much about management in hospital Trusts but key decisions need to be made by experienced healthcare workers not guys in suits.

 

[XJ40]

I can turn into the pub bore on this so I'll keep it to bullet points but am happy to discuss them in more depth if you want:

• Raise National Insurance. We can't expect world-class healthcare at bargain basement prices. The public needs to be realistic.
• Have a higher capital budget. Some hospitals are so bad that they're dangerous, and systems are outdated and differ between Trusts, leading to:
• Embrace digital healthcare. This is being done atm so I'm not worried about that.
• Improve social care. Easier said than done, but a lot of the problems come from an aging population with a care industry that has been chronically underfunded. Many patients are stuck in hospital mffd (medically fit for discharge) but because of the broken system they block beds.
• Long-term investment in training doctors. Divert the ARRS budget into paying for actual doctors rather than "noctors". Restructure the specialty training programmes so more places are available for doctors wishing to enter specialty training thereby reducing competition.
• Focus more on preventative medicine. Again, the NHS is moving in a good direction here so that's reassuring.
• Put clinicians in charge. I don't know much about management in hospital Trusts but key decisions need to be made by experienced healthcare workers not guys in suits.

Yup, I agree with all your points, more so the last one. Experience is crucial. A Professor (I'm not sure who is the highest ranking clinician in departments) moving up to a management role with decades of experience in his or her field, with a financial understanding of the costs involved would be beneficial to all.

My wife attends regular appointments to do with a liver thing, and the doctor she saw initially all those years ago is now a Professor. He is a brilliant bloke and when she describes issues, you can almost see the cogs whirring as he decides next steps.

Who knows, maybe we have such people in management roles just now?

Thanks for the insight 👍