Camber Theory

Bowtie-muscle
Someone please play around and check camber, @Ridox2JZGTE you have plenty of tunes that use it, is there really a difference or not?
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I am very busy in these few days, I won't have a chance to update until the end of the week :( You can easily test it on my Ferrari F40 replica, if you haven't update to 1.09, build it and drive it at Tsukuba and Suzuka, preferably on comfort soft tire, it has real life camber alignment. Run it again on 1.09, if PD do fix camber, it should drive much better ( more grip than all zero camber and much more than with old broken high camber which has less grip than zero )
 
Ok, so this is what I see so far. I need to actually use the telemetry to figure out if this is fact of feel.

Also, they fixed rear heavy cars so there is some gain to be accounted for there.

Around Ascari, I added 0.1/0.6 to my BTR for a 2 second gain overall compared to 0/0. Going over 1 in this car was not beneficial. It appears that the gains are non-linear, which is as they should be. The higher the load on the tire, the more camber assists it. So, on the low speed corners are Ascari you noticed decreased grip. On high speed corners you notice more grip. On braking, you notice lower rear grip. On acceleration, you notice more rear grip.

I'll get back after a telemetry test (assuming I learn how to use it ;))
 
Tested 550 yellow bird on Ascari 0/0 setup from the 16th and 0.1/0.8 setup from today.

DISCLAIMER - They changed the rear weight biased cars (although, from what I can tell they are more stable without being necessarily laterally faster)

Time on the 16th 2:00:983

Time today - 1:59:982

As I felt in the BTR drive, the data logger shows that I have an advantage on higher speed corners and I lose out on the low speed.

Old time vs new time speeds

First hairpin - 83/77kph

First chicane entrance 132/133kph

Second hairpin 76/69

Turn 10 (just before 3rd chicane) 135/145

On corner exit, the data logger shows the two lines cross over on those slow corners where the increased acceleration grip allowed me to negate the lower corner speed at the hairpins.


Verdict - Is it "Fixed"? I guess that depends on what you expected.
Does it work as it should(at least below 1 degree)? Yes.
Do you get an advantage? Maybe, depending on the track and the car

It is definitely based on the amount of load going to the tire, which is as it should be, though I'm not sure about the angles yet.
 
Ok, just a quick update. I have just got the PS3 fired up, installed the update and after a brief Vision GT T.T. to get my nice new VW. I have returned to SSR5 with the same F430 as my previous tests( Pages 8and 9 I think) and I have to agree with @Voodoovaj, that there does seem to be quite a big change with the update in the way the car feels.

I had previously balanced the amount of camber I had applied to maintain the same sort of cornering as before but now it is all wrong...well...the balance is gone on entry as the rear is braking away much easier, in mid corner it's ok and on exit....This is what I'm talking about! No sliding at all massive understeer, masses of rear grip. This I checked out by encouraging a little lift off oversteer (which is now easier than before) and the second I re-applied the throttle the back-end just tightened right up and sorted the slide out with a little "Buck" as the torque kicked in.

There is also a lot more stability here too. I did a spot of weaving at high speed on the main straight and the rear of the car is just so hard to brake away. In fact with the settings on here right now it is darn near impossible, I have to be so violent with the steering and nearly run out width of the track before it'd even slide a little.


The differences I am feeling are exactly as are stated above. I'm going to rebalance the feel of the car with the camber settings and run the same test as before and go to the Data logger to see what's what.
 
Anyone tried higher camber with stiffer springs + damper and higher grip tires ( SS or RH ), this should work similar to real life, where higher grip and stiffer springs allow more camber to be used ( around 2 to 3 ).

IRL, 930 Porsche gain negative camber when the ride height is lowered and loaded ( especially rear tires ), stock factory alignment has only mild camber at 0.00 to 1.5. I read on Porsche forums, 930 lowered and tuned for track racing ( stiffer suspension and aggressive LSD + weak/no swaybar ) has higher camber around 2.0 to 3.0+.

A good place to test is Silverstone GP, the 1st corner and the copse ( I think that's the name ) are good for testing medium/high speed cornering, the higher camber with stiffer springs ( lowered ) and sticky tire should excel here.
 
Well, after a few short, unscientific :lol:, test sessions with a few of my already tuned cars, I can say that a 0/0 camber setting no longer appears to be the fastest way around the track. I have beat all of my PB times in each particular car with camber worked into the tune by anywhere from .257 - 473. Also, the handling felt more planted with camber. So yea, so far so good. 👍
 
Might as well try the ride height guys, easy to test :P just dump the ass, rise the nose and see if it drives differently than in 1.08, and make sure the camber at zero on 1.08 and 1.09 to remove different camber values affecting grip balance from equation.

This sounds so nice :P

LeoStrop
Camber Report

Car used: Ruf BTR

Tire: Sport Hard

Track: Nordschleife / Online(free run)


I already had this tune so i just set the camber to 0.0, front and back, and started testing. No lap times were recorded, driving pleasure was used as reference.

0.0 Front / 0.0 Rear

-The car was very unstable, holding the rear was difficult and driving was stressful.

0.0 Front / 0.4 Rear

-Things started to get better, the car was more progressive.

0.0 Front / 0.8 Rear

-Holding the slide was easier, the car felt more forgiving at the limit.

0.6 Front / 1.2 Rear

-Happy man behind the wheel of a BTR, attacking the ring like a maniac.
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Thorin Cain
Didn't take long at all.:lol:
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I enjoy how it is stated that it only affects the Nascar people :rolleyes:. All the tuners are affected, but it seems most the tuners are happy about it being a correction towards realistic tuning.

So for me that means I just wait for the real tuners to do their thing, then I look up their new tunes and repeat. I just copy their settings then make any adjustments to my liking.. normally not much. I am lazy like that. So thanks to them for all their effort and for being cool enough to share it.
 
Spitfire77
I enjoy how it is stated that it only affects the Nascar people :rolleyes:. All the tuners are affected, but it seems most the tuners are happy about it being a correction towards realistic tuning.

So for me that means I just wait for the real tuners to do their thing, then I look up their new tunes and repeat. I just copy their settings then make any adjustments to my liking.. normally not much. I am lazy like that. So thanks to them for all their effort and for being cool enough to share it.
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It effects us all in different ways. Should be easier for them to sort out though surely? No low/ middle speed corners, not a huge amount of braking and no real direction changes of any note.:P

Sorry guys couldn't resist. I know it's a lot harder than it looks and I have as great a level of respect for those NASCAR guys as I do for any racer of any stripe real or virtual.:gtpflag:
 
Assuming the car is balanced off between height, struts, springs, and arbs, the way I run diff and rear toe settings seem to be allowing me to stick at 0 camber in the rear, but I can decrease camber up front and add traction. I haven't decreased beyond -0.5 yet on many cars yet, though. Camber is helping in the rear through turns, until you start to lean into the throttle. Definitely losing traction at the drive wheels under throttle, but that's how it should be anyways. Less contact patch and even when the outside is leaning on it, you're picking weight up off of the inside. So, things are definitely seeming much more legitimate in terms of traction. I was tweaking mostly race cars today. I figure with the lack of down force, a little camber will help in the rear on street cars. Will commence later today.
 
Ridox2JZGTE
IRL, 930 Porsche gain negative camber when the ride height is lowered and loaded
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Nearly all cars with independent suspension do this, due to suspension geometry. Any car using a control arm with a inner and outer ball joints that attach the spindle to the chassis, along with independent half shafts in the rear, rather than a solid axle = more camber with more load, however it is loaded. Does not matter if the body is leaning through a turn or you're standing on the fender over a wheel arch. And in turn, loading one tire will unload the opposite. If you stand on the front left of your car, you're going to load that corner, which will change the angles within the geometry of the suspension all around. The camber will increase on said loaded corner, while the nose will compress on the left side, unloading the right rear, which decreases camber and pressure on said right rear corner. Which corners affect the others and to what extent obviously various from chassis to chassis in real life.

I am curious to know if toe is affect under load. Cars using the sort of suspension described above, of which most are, also demonstrate toe out under load. Well, less toe in or more toe out depending or your sertings. I have no idea if they've modelled this and know what it feels like it real life, but it doesn't feel like they've accounted for toe under load. One step at a time, though.
 
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After my first test at High speed ring (the best or at least very good place to test camber in my opinion) with subaru impreza SH tires and Lotus F1 RS tires.

-Same lap time and same grip against ghost in medium and high speed turns with camber from 0.0/0.0 to 3.0/3.0

- Above this value there is a progressive lost of grip but nothing big. It´s even possible to make a decent lap with 10.0/10.0 camber settings.

My first impression is that they did more or less the same thing that they did in GT5 with the ride height. They have disconected the camber effect or at least they spread the camber the way it was 1.08 on a much wider range.

After this first quick test my impression is that the max grip is between 0.0 and 2.5 camber value.


_______________________________________________________________________________________

For the rest , good thing, the Audi R8 LMS ultra (Audi Sport Team Phoenix) ’12 seems much more drivable and with a good tune can match with other GT3 cars... Just a first impression.

><(((((°>°°°°°°°
 
332i
Nearly all cars with independent suspension do this, due to suspension geometry. Any car using a control arm with a inner and outer ball joints that attach the spindle to the chassis, along with independent half shafts in the rear, rather than a solid axle = more camber with more load, however it is loaded. Does not matter if the body is leaning through a turn or you're standing on the fender over a wheel arch. And in turn, loading one tire will unload the opposite. If you stand on the front left of your car, you're going to load that corner, which will change the angles within the geometry of the suspension all around. The camber will increase on said loaded corner, while the nose will compress on the left side, unloading the right rear, which decreases camber and pressure on said right rear corner. Which corners affect the others and to what extent obviously various from chassis to chassis in real life.

I am curious to know if toe is affect under load. Cars using the sort of suspension described above, of which most are, also demonstrate toe out under load. Well, less toe in or more toe out depending or your sertings. I have no idea if they've modelled this and know what it feels like it real life, but it doesn't feel like they've accounted for toe under load. One step at a time, though.
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Yeah, this has been visually depicted in GT6, still not really sure with the lowering part ( visually ), but with the fixed camber in 1.09, GT6 should replicate both when loaded and lowered ( even when static/standing still ) For toe, I think GT6 may simulate this, on my F430 Scuderia replica tune, I used similar toe in at the rear like in real life ( the real car gain toe out when loaded, so racer used at least 4mm toe in to reduce snap oversteer IRL ). The toe in on my replica F430 Scuderia works as it should, it made the car more predictable and stable but not inducing too much tightness at the rear end ( this was when camber is broken ) . If anyone interested, please try the F430 Scuderia replica on 1.09, preferably on CS and SH tire at Spa :D

Can't wait to revisit my old replicas and tunes :) The Cizeta V16T will be a real beast now, it was beastly quick when camber was broken :P
 
I excitedly went straight to the data logger to see if any camber data channels had been added but alas no :( I find the lateral g too unreliable to tune from. Any other ideas for tuning the camber other than running laps and hoping you're consistent enough to find the sweet spot?
 
@Ridox2JZGTE When I first bought GT6, I hadn't known about the forum. So, I quickly realized real life increments were yielding terrible results, obviously. Then in found the forum and saw that 0/0 was best. But also in that time, I've mostly been running race cars in various series or exhibition races. So...most of my street cars were set at -0.8F/-0.6R and I'm hoping I don't have to reduce or add too much, but thankful that I at least won't be starting at zero.

I screws with the lotus today and it seems to not like anymore than -0.5ish up front. Rear is seeming very dependent on the entire setup front to rear...which is correct IRL. This was a good leap on PD's part. Lotus alone, I picked up three seconds at spa this morning while I tested with camber adjustments alone. And a diff tweak. Forgot. So, the setups don't seem to need a total revamp, luckily.

You can finally tailor them to late apex HARD and you're not forced to stick to the groove for the fastest line anymore.

And yes, the scud is great with a solid tune. No need for ballast with the right struts/spring/ride height combo.
 
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332i
When I first bought GT6, I hadn't known about the forum. So, I quickly realized real life increments were yielding terrible results, obviously. Then in found the forum and saw that 0/0 was best. But also in that time, I've mostly been running race cars in various series or exhibition races. So...most of my street cars were set at -0.8F/-0.6R and I'm hoping I don't have to reduce or add too much, but thankful that I at least won't be starting at zero.

I screws with the lotus today and it seems to not like anymore than -0.5ish up front. Rear is seeming very dependent on the entire setup front to rear...which is correct IRL. This was a good leap on PD's part. Lotus alone, I picked up three seconds at spa this morning while I tested with camber adjustments alone. And a diff tweak. Forgot. So, the setups don't seem to need a total revamp, luckily.

You can finally tailor them to late apex HARD and you're not forced to stick to the groove for the fastest line anymore.
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That's good to hear :) ARB ,toe and camber should work in harmony IMO, running more camber usually needs weaker swaybar or removal and a very stiff springs, then toe properly set, especially when the tires are loaded and have higher camber. LSD initial torque have huge impact on balance too, sadly most use very low initial and accel ( almost open diff ), in real life most aftermarket clutch plate LSD will be at least 2 times stronger/aggressive in locking than most tuner here would use, even stock ZF LSD on some cars have 45% lock. I also might to add, LSD setup effect is more influential on comfort tires, where grip is a luxury, with higher grip tire, lower initial can be used and maybe also lower locking when beneficial.
 
I just took a car to the Willow Springs skid pan. I couldn't notice any difference in speed between 0.0 and 2.0. 4.0 was a tiny bit slower, 6.0 was way slower. 1.0 maybe felt faster, it certainly wasn't 1mph faster to show up on the speedo - so maybe a placebo?

So I went to Tsukuba and took telemetry at the last turn. Once with 0.0, once with 1.0, and once with 6.0. As a control I compared the lateral g on the 0.0 and 6.0 setups. I know that 6.0 is slower so I expected to see a difference in the lateral g graph. I couldn't see a difference :( The chart is just too small. I wish we could export the data into Motec or something like that.

Looks like seat-of-your-pants it is.

EDIT: Also wanted to say I wonder how much the "correct" amount of camber varies car by car and setup by setup?
 
donpost
I just took a car to the Willow Springs skid pan. I couldn't notice any difference in speed between 0.0 and 2.0. 4.0 was a tiny bit slower, 6.0 was way slower. 1.0 maybe felt faster, it certainly wasn't 1mph faster to show up on the speedo - so maybe a placebo?

So I went to Tsukuba and took telemetry at the last turn. Once with 0.0, once with 1.0, and once with 6.0. As a control I compared the lateral g on the 0.0 and 6.0 setups. I know that 6.0 is slower so I expected to see a difference in the lateral g graph. I couldn't see a difference :( The chart is just too small. I wish we could export the data into Motec or something like that.

Looks like seat-of-your-pants it is.

EDIT: Also wanted to say I wonder how much the "correct" amount of camber varies car by car and setup by setup?
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If PD correctly model the camber now, tires ( grip level ), suspension ( springs, damper, ARB and toe ) would have great effect on how much camber to run best. The type of driving also have a hand in how much camber to run, a drift car uses certain suspension setup, a stock factory alignment tend to use closer to 1.0 camber on most cars, an AutoX Evo would better use higher camber 2.0-3.0 with proper springs and sticky semi slick, damper and ARB to support it. So, in a nutshell, camber varies a lot according to track, tire, and suspension.
 
Hopefully it will work like that - but Forza for example had very little variation in camber (0.3 max difference between different cars) and there you had tyre temperature telemetry so you could get it right every time. I have every faith PD has done a better job :D
 

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