Camber

[Johnnypenso]

Interesting pictures. The big difference to reality seems to be the tyre sidewall flex which is completely missing. With sidewall flex the camber in the second picture might even be better.

Without sidewall flex being modelled (could be in the physics but not visual of course) it means that a tire with no camber but sufficient caster in the base design, might prove to have the best contact patch under load as the pictures seem to indicate. Of course there was no sidewall flex visually in GT5 and camber seemed to work as expected there so there's that...

 

[Z1-AV69]

Without sidewall flex being modelled (could be in the physics but not visual of course) it means that a tire with no camber but sufficient caster in the base design, might prove to have the best contact patch under load as the pictures seem to indicate. Of course there was no sidewall flex visually in GT5 and camber seemed to work as expected there so there's that...

My thoughts were similiar. But I also strongly doubt the graphics showing the physics at work. The contact patch looks unnatural too. Like something cut out of the tyre. Maybe the "deformed part" is just below the tarmac? But it could well be they took some shortcut for caster and tyre model and the result in physics is an always optimum contact patch without static camber? In this case I wouldn't expect a fix though.

 

[HOOT44]

Without sidewall flex being modelled (could be in the physics but not visual of course) it means that a tire with no camber but sufficient caster in the base design, might prove to have the best contact patch under load as the pictures seem to indicate. Of course there was no sidewall flex visually in GT5 and camber seemed to work as expected there so there's that...

I was thinking that myself, but then I thought that tyre flex would be such an attractive visual feature that would be unlikely to be left out of the graphics model.
On the other hand...
Imagine if tyre flex WAS in the graphics as well as handling model - we would probably be screaming for tyre pressure adjustments and certainly discussing how well it is realised (or how poorly).

Another wild theory I had was that tyre flex may be in the handling model but not yet fully realised. Your pictures (nice work on those by the way) show no tyre flex which may just give the effect of super high tyre pressure. Such a high tyre pressure would surely have a general effect on the effectiveness on the whole suspension and not just camber - as many have already pointed out.

 

[Jack Napier]

I did this for the now infamous @Jack Napier. Which car appears to have better contact with the road? Both taken under load, same steering angle, Stowe, X Bow with only camber changed in one photo.

View attachment 111205
View attachment 111207

First pic has flatter contact

As you raised the camber the tire became LESS in contact with the road..

But if you look at the inside tire in that same corner, the pic with zero camber setting (matched to pic 1) it would have poorer contact with the road.

Look at inside tire on car in pic 2, it will have a flatter contact with the road....

So as PD says in the game raise camber for better contact, your looking at the wrong tire

The tire where the PD tuning instructions apply in the front is the inside tire...

Looking at your own pics HOW can you say front end camber is to flatten the outside tire??? Obviously adding camber from zero in the front will lower the outside front tire contact patch not raise it as PD tells us to use camber adjusting.

Thanks I been waiting for somebody to post some pics..

To be clear do you say

A) wheels don't go where supposed to and don't do what they are supposed to...

OR

B) wheels go where supposed to but don't perform as they should??

I will also mention that if you understand caster, camber, and toe & how they work together, you can use camber, and toe to confirm they work as they should in the game & you can use camber to measure caster angle.. This is fact, I have some pics etc uploading to prove it.

I also nailed 1:38 tweaking my GT350 tune a bit including raising rear camber angle to -2.5 in the rear..

That is correct 1:38 SH 500PP GT350 with a -2.5 rear camber angle.. Seems I wasn't aggressive enough on my wheel angles...


I do not understand how if camber just removed grip, how could I be a full second faster with 2.2 degrees more neg camber, would that grip loss not hurt my time? The faster with less grip theory don't hold water, or would zero camber and lower grade rear tires make me even faster?

 

[Johnnypenso]

First pic has flatter contact

As you raised the camber the tire became LESS in contact with the road..

But if you look at the inside tire in that same corner, the pic with zero camber setting (matched to pic 1) it would have poorer contact with the road.

So as PD says in the game raise camber for better contact, your looking at the wrong tire

The tire where the PD tuning instructions apply in the front is the inside tire...

Looking at your own pics HOW can you say front end camber is to flatten the outside tire??? Obviously adding camber from zero in the front will lower the outside front tire contact patch not raise it as PD tells us to use camber adjusting.

Thanks I been waiting for somebody to post some pics..

To be clear do you say

A) wheels don't go where supposed to and don't do what they are supposed to...

OR

B) wheels go where supposed to but don't perform as they should??

I will also mention that if you understand caster, camber, and toe & how they work together, you can use camber, and toe to confirm they work as they should in the game & you can use camber to measure caster angle.. This is fact, I have some pics etc uploading to prove it.

I also nailed 1:38 tweaking my GT350 tune a bit including raising rear camber angle to -2.5 in the rear..

That is correct 1:38 SH 500PP GT350 with a -2.5 rear camber angle.. Seems I wasn't aggressive enough on my wheel angles...


I do not understand how if camber just removed grip, how could I be a full second faster with 2.2 degrees more neg camber, would that grip loss not hurt my time? The faster with less grip theory don't hold water, or would zero camber and lower grade rear tires make me even faster?

I think we've discovered where our disagreement is.

In real life, front grip during hard cornering is borne mostly by the outside front tire.

This post has the best illustrations for how camber is supposed to work..please read this

Camber is supposed act in harmony with caster and sidewall flex to produce as flat a footprint during cornering on the outside tire. The inside tire bears so little weight in circuit racing it often lifts under hard corner so it's providing zero grip. This is a common well known phenomenon.

So what you are proposing, that camber on the inside tire is important, goes against all the laws of physics and the way the game "should" work. Do you accept this?

The evidence you provided about camber on your tune doesn't prove anything, it's anecdotal and it only means that you are faster with that tune. Others drove it and said it understeered on entry and oversteered on exit. Adding camber and reducing rear grip could be helping with entry and rotation and be better suited to your driving style whatever it may be. One test with one car and one set of settings isn't proof. We need repeatable comparable tests.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Adding camber and reducing rear grip could be helping with entry and rotation and be better suited to your driving style whatever it may be. One test with one car and one set of settings isn't proof. We need repeatable comparable tests.

And to that I would add that it's been shown several times that even though cambr is definitely reducing grip, it CAN lead to fast times be smoothing out the cornering process.

 

[Jack Napier]

We can confirm also that in a corner as the car leans into it the outside wheels will have positive camber effect and the inside will have negative camber effect.. Softer springs and heavier car will have more pronounced lean.

It's easiest to see this on the rear end as it has a camber angle not effected by caster or steering angle. However the lean is still able to be seen on the front, we just have to consider the camber effect from caster when looking for the difference.

So we can confirm, that camber effect from body roll is simulated in GT6... Check it for yourself to see best, not that hard to look at the back end of your car in a replay.

So what do we know for certain??

We know as fact

1) wheel angle adjustments do what they should as far as positioning the wheels correctly. IRL & GT6

2) camber effect from body roll is simulated in GT6

3) caster angle works as it should in GT6 and is measurable with camber. It works the same as IRL.

4) IRL & in GT6 adding neg camber to the front will not flatten the outside front tire in a corner, it will lower it. In relation to the caster angle.

5) IRL & in GT6 adding neg camber to the front will flatten the inside front tire in a corner. In relation to the caster angle

6) IRL and in GT6 adding neg camber to the front will indeed flatten the tires contact patch.

 

[Jack Napier]

Use the facts to draw conclusions

Don't twist facts trying to support your conclusion..


On your logic it's the less grip making me faster, that argument goes both ways..

Maybe the zero camber guys are fast because of the low grip

 

[Johnnypenso]

We can confirm also that in a corner as the car leans into it the outside wheels will have positive camber effect and the inside will have negative camber effect.. Softer springs and heavier car will have more pronounced lean.

It's easiest to see this on the rear end as it has a camber angle not effected by caster or steering angle. However the lean is still able to be seen on the front, we just have to consider the camber effect from caster when looking for the difference.

So we can confirm, that camber effect from body roll is simulated in GT6... Check it for yourself to see best, not that hard to look at the back end of your car in a replay.

So what do we know for certain??

We know as fact

1) wheel angle adjustments do what they should as far as positioning the wheels correctly. IRL & GT6

2) camber effect from body roll is simulated in GT6

3) caster angle works as it should in GT6 and is measurable with camber. It works the same as IRL.

4) IRL & in GT6 adding neg camber to the front will not flatten the outside front tire in a corner, it will lower it. In relation to the caster angle.

5) IRL & in GT6 adding neg camber to the front will flatten the inside front tire in a corner. In relation to the caster angle

6) IRL and in GT6 adding neg camber to the front will indeed flatten the tires contact patch.

Jack, Jack, Jack you are avoiding the issue. It's an established fact in real life that the inside tire has little and in some cases absolutely zero grip and is irrelevant as far as camber goes. This is a fact it's indisuputable and your insistence on using inside camber and grip as an explaination of why camber works is nonsensical.

So what you must then be proposing is that PD has ignored the laws of physics completely in the car physics engine and is giving as much grip to the inside as the outside tire during cornering? I'm not saying that isn't true by the way, anything is possible, but is that what you are saying, that the physics engine doesn't mimic real life inside tire grip during cornering?

Even if you are right, and maybe you are, it still doesn't mean anything until you come up with a test we can all repeat with camber as the only variable.

 

[Jack Napier]

It's actually pretty unwise and completely wrong to think just because the outside wheels are doing more work the inside wheels are not important... Probably the most incorrect thing posted in this thread by far.....

You can SAY it's going against how it should in the real world, however you do not appear to not know what your talking about. Saying the inside wheels are not important in a corner because the outside wheels are doing more work only PROVES you do not. As EVERYBODY that has raced IRL can tell you, that's COMPLETELY (not even a maybe) Wrong......... Wait, wait MC Fake Racer will defiantly back you up lol...

Inside wheels not important, SERIOUSLY??????? Do you have any idea of what we are talking about here?? Are you sure, because you can copy as much irrelevant stuff from IRL as you like, that just shows you know how to use Google, and can't use your own words to argue your point....

The inside wheels are certainly important, you should already know this..... I bet you want me to explain why huh, can't figure it out?!?!?!?

Maybe I should explain the other aspects of Caster. You see caster does not only apply a camber effect, it does a few more things.

Higher caster angle will make the steering stiff and hard to turn as the axis the steering rotate on is pulled back from flush making steering have to push over the wheels into the reclined axis raising them as caster angle is increased this effect is increased progressively along the steering input & can be manipulated with static camber tuning (neg to pos transition point) Caster also has a progressive leverage effect on the springs.

Adjusting caster changes a few things, not just the camber effect but also the steering feel, spring stiffness and camber effect.. It's a little complicated. We change static camber to have the cornering improvement without throwing off the steering or the Spring Rate, Although in real life we can change caster we do so modestly and even IRL use static camber adjustments to fine tune only camber, camber effect from caster. Any time you see a camber angle on a wheel, it's called camber, even if it's because of caster we have a camber angle, it's still a camber angle.

A wheel alignment for street driving and dialling in a race suspension to the track are not the same thing.

 

[Matt368]

The inside is obviously important but surely you cant deny the outside wheel is the more important in terms of lateral grip? This picture illustrates whats been said above (exaggerated body roll I know)

 

[FussyFez]

Wait, wait MC Fake Racer will defiantly back you up lol...

More personal attacks, now toward a member not currently active in the discussion.

While your ramblings are humorous, you must learn to play nice.

Grow up.

 

[HOOT44]

The inside is obviously important but surely you cant deny the outside wheel is the more important in terms of lateral grip? This picture illustrates whats been said above (exaggerated body roll I know)

Exactly. There is only so much ARB can do.

 

[Jack Napier]

Your test proposition is nonsense, I'll explain why.

1) Tuning of all other settings impacts how you can set your camber, and in tuning camber it's always going with the tuning the rest of the suspension.

2) If you tune the car to be perfect for you with no camber, adding camber after the fact is very difficult and will often to throw off everything else, tuning the suspension SHOULD NEVER be done 1 setting at a time. Everything impacts everything else, so if you for instance dial in your spring rate perfectly with all other settings default, you springs will be only good with the damps at or near where they were when you set the spring rate perfect.. Do them together and get the most out of the damps and springs instead of getting great spring rate but unable to really tune the damps ideally. Got to have a dialled in base tune to start tweaking for gains and improved handling. That's like composing a Symphony start to finish on one instrument, then restarting and adding one instrument at a time until you get them all.. No you need to hear them all together as you go

3) I sliced a full second off my Laguna lap raising camber to -2.5

4) Others have posted in the thread already showing lap time improvements from adding camber

5) People who have not driven in GT with camber for many years will need to adjust to driving with camber tuning. I think that's a hard hurtle for some to accept let alone overcome.

6) Unless the driver is a robot, how the car is driven as always will be a huge factor.

 

[JimbobMarley65]

Your test proposition is nonsense, I'll explain why.

1) Tuning of all other settings impacts how you can set your camber, and in tuning camber it's always going with the tuning the rest of the suspension.

2) If you tune the car to be perfect for you with no camber, adding camber after the fact is very difficult and will often to throw off everything else, tuning the suspension SHOULD NEVER be done 1 setting at a time. Everything impacts everything else, so if you for instance dial in your spring rate perfectly with all other settings default, you springs will be only good with the damps at or near where they were when you set the spring rate perfect.. Do them together and get the most out of the damps and springs instead of getting great spring rate but unable to really tune the damps ideally. Got to have a dialled in base tune to start tweaking for gains and improved handling. That's like composing a Symphony start to finish on one instrument, then restarting and adding one instrument at a time until you get them all.. No you need to hear them all together as you go

3) I sliced a full second off my Laguna lap raising camber to -2.5

4) Others have posted in the thread already showing lap time improvements from adding camber

5) People who have not driven in GT with camber for many years will need to adjust to driving with camber tuning. I think that's a hard hurtle for some to accept let alone overcome.

6) Unless the driver is a robot, how the car is driven as always will be a huge factor.

I've got to admit that all makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Jack Napier]

What do you think the ARB are there to do? It's keep more load + grip on the inside tires




You are right though, there is only so much they can do...

 

[FussyFez]

Your test proposition is nonsense, I'll explain why.

1) Tuning of all other settings impacts how you can set your camber, and in tuning camber it's always going with the tuning the rest of the suspension.

2) If you tune the car to be perfect for you with no camber, adding camber after the fact is very difficult and will often to throw off everything else, tuning the suspension SHOULD NEVER be done 1 setting at a time. Everything impacts everything else, so if you for instance dial in your spring rate perfectly with all other settings default, you springs will be only good with the damps at or near where they were when you set the spring rate perfect.. Do them together and get the most out of the damps and springs instead of getting great spring rate but unable to really tune the damps ideally. Got to have a dialled in base tune to start tweaking for gains and improved handling. That's like composing a Symphony start to finish on one instrument, then restarting and adding one instrument at a time until you get them all.. No you need to hear them all together as you go

3) I sliced a full second off my Laguna lap raising camber to -2.5

4) Others have posted in the thread already showing lap time improvements from adding camber

5) People who have not driven in GT with camber for many years will need to adjust to driving with camber tuning. I think that's a hard hurtle for some to accept let alone overcome.

6) Unless the driver is a robot, how the car is driven as always will be a huge factor.

Who are you talking to?

Nobody has proposed a test since your last post?

No.5 makes little sense. Camber worked as expected in GT5.

It's the same old story.

Please keep your ramblings contained to one thread.

Some people are making genuine ground with proper testing.

I haven't seen any credible testing from you.

 

[Motor City Hami]

Wait, wait MC Fake Racer will defiantly back you up lol...

Yes. Absolutely. Because in the fake racing that I do in real life, the apex of turn one at Gingerman Raceway is actually one foot into the grass. If you do not clip that corner, you will be slower in the following switchback. For this track, I seem to be able to get by with optimizing camber for the outside wheels... for some odd reason.

Oh. And the results of all of that inside front wheel camber can be seen in the picture below.

Jack - I a still waiting for you to post a tune so that we can see what all of this talk produces using the tune settings available in GT6.

 

[Jack Napier]

Weight equals grip

Remember the weight is tossed at the COG,NOT at the wheel laterally, so it's important to visualize the outside wheels are being pushed into the road by the weight adding grip. The steering angle gives the lateral load at the tire but this is a shared load outside working with the inside. The outside wheels have more grip as the weight is pushing into the tires, but the weight loss on the inside makes the inside tires get less grip and prone to slip.

IF the inside tires slip, the lateral load that they we're holding onto (even if not as much as the outside, how much weight do you think is tossed on slammed stiff cars?) that load gets instantly transferred on the outside tire and this can overload the outside tire already riding at its limits. By holding more LATERAL load on the inside, we put LESS LATERAL load on the outside..

Often we tune the inside to help the outside..



We actually do quite a bit of our tuning to make sure the inside wheels can hold onto as much grip and thus the road as possible as the weight gets tossed to the outside or to reduce the weight being tossed keeping some grip on the inside with weight.



Light car faster, heavy car more stable

 

[Johnnypenso]

Lot of theories Jack, I still don't see any testing.

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

Yes. Absolutely. Because in the fake racing that I do in real life, the apex of turn one at Gingerman Raceway is actually one foot into the grass. If you do not clip that corner, you will be slower in the following switchback. For this track, I seem to be able to get by with optimizing camber for the outside wheels... for some odd reason.

Oh. And the results of all of that inside front wheel camber can be seen in the picture below.

Jack - I a still waiting for you to post a tune so that we can see what all of this talk produces using the tune settings available in GT6.

And this should put an ! on this discussion. Nice job Keith, and others, with your discussion here.

@Jack Napier I have been silently following this discussion here and I must say nothing you have said here makes any kind of sense as far as the game goes. You cannot relate real life tuning to this game, you just can't. There are way too many flaws, including camber, in GT's tuning to relate the game to real life. I do quite a bit of behind the scenes testing of the more notable tuners tunes on here, including Hami's, and I can tell you that GT's tuning is quirky to say the least. I have been patiently waiting for you to produce this tune you keep talking about and your description of it so that I may test it myself but so far you have produced nothing except a lot of smoke and mirrors. Stop trying to convince everyone here that you are the only one here that knows how to tune and post this tune you keep going on about so that we can test it and make our own conclusions. Post a tune, and I will give you an unbiased opinion. Even though I am a friend and neighbor of Hami's and follow his tuning methods, I can be fair and unbiased in my testing. It was myself that Hami spoke of earlier that gave him a negative review on one of his tunes and we are currently working together to fully understand the differences between his tune and mine. So yea, I am not afraid to give an unbiased review of a tune, regardless if you are a friend of mine or not. So please, post this "camber" tune you speak of so that we can test it.

 

[Verbal]

@Jack Napier I have been silently following this discussion here and I must say nothing you have said here makes any kind of sense as far as the game goes. You cannot relate real life tuning to this game, you just can't.

Nothing he says makes any sense as far as real life goes.

 

[Motor City Hami]

Nothing he says makes any sense as far as real life goes.

Well... maybe? He is not doing a very good job at explaining things and completely failing at posting any tune settings, but...

In oval racing, you can play with caster split. If you run zero caster or negative caster on the inside front wheel, you can get the inside front to lay more flat. Combine that with positive caster on the outside wheel and you can use this to drop the front ride height just by turning the wheel. So for oval racing, with the ability to tune left and right caster independently or in real life where a suspension can be built to induce caster gain or loss, yes, Jack's theory can add front grip to a car turning in one direction.

Two issues with this:
- Jack is describing his theory for road racing where we need to turn both right and left. Caster split would have to come from caster gain setups and they becomes nearly impossible to stabilize or drive consistently.
- GT6 does not allow for us to change caster nor do they allow for tune settings to be different on all four corners.

Still waiting on a tune that shows your theory Jack.

 

[Jack Napier]

I find if others can produce results it's better than if I do, clearly it is, however did I not mention running 1:38 at Laguna taking a full second off my time after adjusting rear camber to -2.5 degrees? Oh yeah I did, full second improvement with but loads of rear camber. But I seem to be faster in a GT350 at 500pp on SH apparently with that much less rear end grip, seriously they say Im faster in a GT350 with less grip in the rear on Laguna??? Wow!

Ohh I think I should be clear, I do not tune my camber only to focus on the inside tire. Nor do I tune it to be perfectly flat. That would be foolish tuning. I use camber in the front to manipulate the balance of grip between the inside and outside tires and for the same reason in the rear just differently BUT I do so while also trying to strike a balance with the F/R

Before Tuning is Understanding

I find it hard to believe some don't understand it's a Different feeling riding pos camb on the inside front through a corner vs riding neg camb on the inside front through a corner and the 2 perform differently too and that performance varies with

Ever thought about that?!?!?!?

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

I find if others can produce results it's better than if I do, clearly it is, however did I not mention running 1:38 at Laguna taking a full second off my time after adjusting rear camber to -2.5 degrees? Oh yeah I did, full second improvement with but loads of rear camber. But I seem to be faster in a GT350 at 500pp on SH apparently with that much less rear end grip, seriously they say Im faster in a GT350 with less grip in the rear on Laguna??? Wow!

Ohh I think I should be clear, I do not tune my camber only to focus on the inside tire. Nor do I tune it to be perfectly flat. That would be foolish tuning. I use camber in the front to manipulate the balance of grip between the inside and outside tires and for the same reason in the rear just differently BUT I do so while also trying to strike a balance with the F/R

Before Tuning is Understanding

I find it hard to believe some don't understand it's a Different feeling riding pos camb on the inside front through a corner vs riding neg camb on the inside front through a corner and the 2 perform differently too and that performance varies with

Ever thought about that?!?!?!?

Again I say, where is your tune confirming your theory....yes, I said theory because that is all it is at this point. You have proven absolutely nothing here except for the fact that you can lower your lap time with some secret tune you have. Produce a tune if you are so confident in what you say. 🤬 or get off the toilet Jack.

 

[eSZee]

I find if others can produce results it's better than if I do, clearly it is, however did I not mention running 1:38 at Laguna taking a full second off my time after adjusting rear camber to -2.5 degrees? Oh yeah I did, full second improvement with but loads of rear camber. But I seem to be faster in a GT350 at 500pp on SH apparently with that much less rear end grip, seriously they say Im faster in a GT350 with less grip in the rear on Laguna??? Wow!

In all fairness, mentioning something=/=proving something.
You've mentioned a lot of things over the past few pages, you have NOT shown or proven anything. There's a consensus among the tuners here, you came in claiming they are wrong and have not backed that up.

TO BE CLEAR, I'm not taking any sides as I tune my cars for driving enjoyment(and usually despise the tunes posted for various seasonals and what not). Getting this deep into suspension tuning hasn't been required thus far.

 

[Jack Napier]

It's actually pretty simple & since it's clear so many think I'm wrong clueless blah blah, I kept very obscure for a reason, this is to see if the big GTP tuners would have the following answer... Not one came through, it's a shame.

Cats about to jump out.

How I use camber and a demo car for proof...

Riding neg camber on the inside front tire helps with cars that oversteer crazy. Like the Ruf YB and X-Bow

many use ballast to cure this and they are adding mass wheel angle tuning will fix

Riding pos cam on the inside through the corner will help cars that understeer a lot and help control under/over balance


So

Pos camb on inside to help cars with understeer

&

Neg camb on the inside to help cars with oversteer.

Proof? Grab a Ruf YB add 5 degrees front and 1.5 in the rear


Want proof?!?!?!?

This is not a tune just a camber demo

Buy a RuF YB

Get Sport Soft Tires

Add the adj suspension

Leave ride height stock

Spring rate stock

Damps
4/4
5/5

ARB to weight
4/6
Brakes to weight
4/6 (run ABS at zero)

Camb and toe zero/zero/zero/zero

Get light all light weight parts oil and break in n all that.

Stock diff, stock gear box I'm talking STD parts all around Baby...

Should be 540PP

485hp
428tq
1064kg

Default settings.

Hit the track, notice the cars front end just doesn't want to hold in the corner just a pita to drive...

Usually ballast to the rescue adding mass for no good reason..

Instead adjust the wheel angles to

Camb
6.0/1.5
Toe
0.35/0.65


I have just demonstrated using neg camber on the front to have my inside front tire ride neg camber in the corner instead of positive as with zero camb setting... This is to help with the cars oversteer...

You can also try

Camb
0.0/0.0
Toe
0.35/0.65

Zero camber It will not be cured of the oversteer it will just oversteer at a slower pace, making longer slides.

Adding the crazy camber to a Ruf Yellowbird changed it from an oversteer nightmare, to understeer yawner... And I could run the brakes tuned to weight even..... Surprise the rear ain't on fire, notice that...

As you can see this reduces oversteer in the front and the rear is still composed holding on well with its -1.5 camb and 4/6 brakes

The reduced oversteer now makes the car much easier to drive.

That is not a Tune, just demonstrating how using camber in the front can help with oversteer. I kept the car very much out of whack and used exaggerated camber up front to illustrate my point.... IF you know how to use camber in the front it's a great tuning tool..

The YB is a beast love it love it love it...

Ketchup for those Feet?

 

[Johnnypenso]

It's actually pretty simple & since it's clear so many think I'm wrong clueless blah blah, I kept very obscure for a reason, this is to see if the big GTP tuners would have the following answer... Not one came through, it's a shame.

Cats about to jump out.

How I use camber and a demo car for proof...

Riding neg camber on the inside front tire helps with cars that oversteer crazy. Like the Ruf YB and X-Bow

many use ballast to cure this and they are adding mass wheel angle tuning will fix

Riding pos cam on the inside through the corner will help cars that understeer a lot and help control under/over balance


So

Pos camb on inside to help cars with understeer

&

Neg camb on the inside to help cars with oversteer.

Proof? Grab a Ruf YB add 5 degrees front and 1.5 in the rear


Want proof?!?!?!?

This is not a tune just a camber demo

Buy a RuF YB

Get Sport Soft Tires

Add the adj suspension

Leave ride height stock

Spring rate stock

Damps
4/4
5/5

ARB to weight
4/6
Brakes to weight
4/6 (run ABS at zero)

Camb and toe zero/zero/zero/zero

Get light all light weight parts oil and break in n all that.

Stock diff, stock gear box I'm talking STD parts all around Baby...

Should be 540PP

485hp
428tq
1064kg

Default settings.

Hit the track, notice the cars front end just doesn't want to hold in the corner just a pita to drive...

Usually ballast to the rescue adding mass for no good reason..

Instead adjust the wheel angles to

Camb
6.0/1.5
Toe
0.35/0.65


I have just demonstrated using neg camber on the front to have my inside front tire ride neg camber in the corner instead of positive as with zero camb setting... This is to help with the cars oversteer...

You can also try

Camb
0.0/0.0
Toe
0.35/0.65

Zero camber It will not be cured of the oversteer it will just oversteer at a slower pace, making longer slides.

Adding the crazy camber to a Ruf Yellowbird changed it from an oversteer nightmare, to understeer yawner... And I could run the brakes tuned to weight even..... Surprise the rear ain't on fire, notice that...

As you can see this reduces oversteer in the front and the rear is still composed holding on well with its -1.5 camb and 4/6 brakes

The reduced oversteer now makes the car much easier to drive.

That is not a Tune, just demonstrating how using camber in the front can help with oversteer. I kept the car very much out of whack and used exaggerated camber up front to illustrate my point.... IF you know how to use camber in the front it's a great tuning tool..

The YB is a beast love it love it love it...

Ketchup for those Feet?

Same post from the Camber thread...Same Answer

 

[Zenmervolt]

What do you think the ARB are there to do? It's keep more load + grip on the inside tires

Uh, no. The ARB is there to help tune relative roll stiffness between the two axles and to lower the car slightly during cornering by applying an upward force to the inside tire which negates some of the effects of body roll.

Increasing the roll stiffness of the front axle while leaving the roll stiffness of the rear axle the same increases the load on the outside front tire in corners. This is exactly the opposite of what you're claiming it does. Any time you increase the roll stiffness of one axle relative to the other, you will increase the weight transfer for the axle with the increase in roll stiffness and make the outside tire on that axle work harder.

A quite excellent write-up can be found here: http://www.gencoupe.com/articles-ch...ess-weight-transfer-what-you-should-know.html

 

[Terronium-12]

Jack, remember when I told you there wouldn't be a third warning?