Car Behavior and Tire Temps after Patch 2.0PS4
- Thread starter Jack Dulmage
- 319 comments
- 85,941 views
- 2,373
- The Chocolate Factory
- ozwheels3
Interesting how carbon and iron brakes have the same operating range. I assume this is a video game aspect to keep things streamlined across the board.
- 6,293
- Canada
Well, I dunno...I'm still stumped.
NISMO GTR GT3, Monza, Oct 5, 3pm, 22C ambient, 31C track, Light Cloud
I know Monza is a low tire wear track, but I cannot get heat into the Hards in these conditions.
I tried the Softs, and can get them to sit nicely in the mid 80s, at 1.80-1.83bar. Best lap a 1:48.582, I was averaging in the high 48s, low 49s. I could maintain that pace for an indefinite period, there was no real drop off in performance from the tires. I know 48s and 49s is not blisteringly fast, but for race pace, it's not bad (from what I've experienced in online lobbies).
So...2 questions:
1. Are people still convinced that the Hard tire is the way to go in all but the coldest conditions? I don't really consider 31C track temp to be cold. The more testing I do, the more I feel like the Hard/Soft options for GT3 are just that, a hard and soft option, based on driving style, setup, narrow temp margined, etc - as opposed to the notion that the Hard is supposed to be used in almost all conditions, and the soft is only for really cold temps (below 20C track temp), or 1 quali lap.
2. What do I do with the front right tire?? Like I said, I can get the rear left to hold nicely at 80-90C, 1.8bar, same with the front left. The right rear I can get into the low 80s at like 1.79bar.
But the front right...no idea what to do?? Even with minimum starting pressure (1.30bar), the hottest I can get that tire while doing race laps is about 72C. Most of the lap, it's about 65C. And the pressure peaks at about 1.65bar.
So what do I do? It's under temp, under pressure. I tried increasing the starting pressure by quite a bit, but that just made it worse. I can't go any lower either.
Also, what is better...under pressure, or under temp?
NISMO GTR GT3, Monza, Oct 5, 3pm, 22C ambient, 31C track, Light Cloud
I know Monza is a low tire wear track, but I cannot get heat into the Hards in these conditions.
I tried the Softs, and can get them to sit nicely in the mid 80s, at 1.80-1.83bar. Best lap a 1:48.582, I was averaging in the high 48s, low 49s. I could maintain that pace for an indefinite period, there was no real drop off in performance from the tires. I know 48s and 49s is not blisteringly fast, but for race pace, it's not bad (from what I've experienced in online lobbies).
So...2 questions:
1. Are people still convinced that the Hard tire is the way to go in all but the coldest conditions? I don't really consider 31C track temp to be cold. The more testing I do, the more I feel like the Hard/Soft options for GT3 are just that, a hard and soft option, based on driving style, setup, narrow temp margined, etc - as opposed to the notion that the Hard is supposed to be used in almost all conditions, and the soft is only for really cold temps (below 20C track temp), or 1 quali lap.
2. What do I do with the front right tire?? Like I said, I can get the rear left to hold nicely at 80-90C, 1.8bar, same with the front left. The right rear I can get into the low 80s at like 1.79bar.
But the front right...no idea what to do?? Even with minimum starting pressure (1.30bar), the hottest I can get that tire while doing race laps is about 72C. Most of the lap, it's about 65C. And the pressure peaks at about 1.65bar.
So what do I do? It's under temp, under pressure. I tried increasing the starting pressure by quite a bit, but that just made it worse. I can't go any lower either.
Also, what is better...under pressure, or under temp?
- 51,796
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
For "heavy" cars, I think the Hard tyre is best for fast tracks. Softs for street tracks and short circuits.
Circuits with lots of load on the tyre, in long turns, won't do the soft tyres any favors.
I haven't driven one yet, but I guess the Open wheelers might be the best judge on both tyres.
Circuits with lots of load on the tyre, in long turns, won't do the soft tyres any favors.
I haven't driven one yet, but I guess the Open wheelers might be the best judge on both tyres.
- 1,787
- RomKnight
The reality minimum was set at 1.4 IIRC for V8SC after teams started to run really lower than the manufacturer specified and ofc, tyres weren't lasting as long (not that they last much on slicks and on abuse. It's an heavy car really
)/edit
Actually it seems to be 1.2 (17PSI) since 2014. Dunlop Recommendation is 18PSI.
/edit2
@twitcher
Tracks like Barcelona a.e., will destroy the front left because well, the way it's designed
You you'll struggle to keep temps on that one down. Obviously the front right won't be quite the same. You just have to make the most out of it and manage that front left in this case.
This is very car/track combo dependent and it's racing. I wish I was an engineer to help but, I'm not
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- 6,293
- Canada
My issue wasn't the tire overheating...it was that I couldn't get the front right ABOVE 72C.The reality minimum was set at 1.4 IIRC for V8SC after teams started to run really lower than the manufacturer specified and ofc, tyres weren't lasting as long (not that they last much on slicks and on abuse. It's an heavy car really
/edit
Actually it seems to be 1.2 (17PSI) since 2014. Dunlop Recommendation is 18PSI.
/edit2
@twitcher
Tracks like Barcelona a.e., will destroy the front left because well, the way it's designed
You you'll struggle to keep temps on that one down. Obviously the front right won't be quite the same. You just have to make the most out of it and manage that front left in this case.
This is very car/track combo dependent and it's racing. I wish I was an engineer to help but, I'm not
Soft tire, track temp of 31C, Monza. I was running absolute minimum pressure in the tire (starting at 1.30bar, when warm it was 1.65bar). If I weaved on straights, I got get heat in it no problem, but doing race laps, it would cool to the high 60s
I guess what I'm getting at is at 31C track temp, if I can't get heat in the soft tire...what the hell do I do when track temp is 21C??
General point for the thread...anyone find this odd:
Optimum pressure is 1.8 bar.
Across all testing I've done so far, I'm seeing about a 0.3 to 0.4 bar increase from starting pressures to working pressures.
The scale for tire pressure adjustment goes from 1.30 to 3.00 bar.
Why can't we go lower than 1.30bar? Is that minimum regulations? Who on earth is going to put 2.95bar starting pressure in a GT3 car??
Scale seems very generic to me, like it was slapped on by someone who didn't actually do tire pressure and temp tests in the game.
Edit:
This just gets better and better.
I spent several hours dialing in those pressures and temps, the GTR at Monza. Got both a hard tire and soft tire setup to work in various temp ranges. For both compounds, I was able to get the tires to sit at about 85-90C, and between 1.8-1.9bar. The pressures would come after 2-3 laps, and then hold rock steady. For both compounds, starting pressures were in the low 1.40bar area.
So after all the testing, I set up a 5 lap race against the AI. Monza, GT3, 32C ambient, 48C track, light cloud. I got with the hard tire setup because of the heat. Race starts, I flip my HUD to check pressures and temps....HUD is showing pressures to be at 2.02bar and climbing.
With the starting pressures I set, I was never able to get close to 2.00bar...how the game got there in simulated warm-up lap is beyond me.
Just going with my gut, I decide to restart the session. This time, I start the race without even going into my tuning menu. When the race starts, I check the HUD, now it's showing 1.80bar front and rear....
I'm feelin' lucky, so I restart the session again. This time, I go to the tune menu and make sure my Monza Hard tire setup is loaded. 1.44 front, 1.42 rear on the left side, pretty much minimums on the right side. I start the race a 3rd time, check the HUD...as the AI is rolling to the line, the HUD shows my starting pressures, but with a greyed out tire icon. Then the icon turns to green, and the pressures jump to 1.86bar on the left side, 1.79bar right rear, and 1.70bar right front - basically exactly like my working pressures in the practice session.
Now, no matter how many times I restart, it loads the propper pressures.
The other thing that's off is the temps. It's starting the race with every tire at 96C. Isnt 96C right on the upper edge of starting to overheat? I thought ideal was in the mid to high 80s, low 90s?
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- 6,293
- Canada
So, I think I'm starting to get to the root of what may have been causing me so much grief.
This game is a steaming pile of turd.
Check out the disco ball tire temps
I loaded a different race, Daytona, formation lap, same setup as a at Monza. Start the race, and get that can of worms for tire temps. The temps jumping by 10C in micro seconds, and you can see the colours flashing for like a light show.
Now, back on day 1 of PC2, some bloke in an online lobby told me flashing tires meant I had flat spotted the tire. Ok. I know I've seen this flashing tire crap while online, sometimes after a crash, sometimes not. Sometimes at the start, sometimes randomly in the middle of the race. I never payed that much attention to it, despite the dozen of crashes caused by it, as I just thought it was a mistake I made which damage the tire.
Clearly not. This bull hucky seems to happen randomly.
Also note the pressures in that video. Again, they start at 2.20bar!! Wtf. My starting pressures are 1.42 and 1.38. This is so whack, so broken, I don't even know where to turn next.
I don't care how much people want to say this game simulates this, simulates that.."you need to adapt your driving style." No, 🤬 off Charlie. I don't trust a single thing this game is doing at the moment, to be able to decipher what is simulated and what is programming garbage.
This game is a steaming pile of turd.
Check out the disco ball tire temps
I loaded a different race, Daytona, formation lap, same setup as a at Monza. Start the race, and get that can of worms for tire temps. The temps jumping by 10C in micro seconds, and you can see the colours flashing for like a light show.
Now, back on day 1 of PC2, some bloke in an online lobby told me flashing tires meant I had flat spotted the tire. Ok. I know I've seen this flashing tire crap while online, sometimes after a crash, sometimes not. Sometimes at the start, sometimes randomly in the middle of the race. I never payed that much attention to it, despite the dozen of crashes caused by it, as I just thought it was a mistake I made which damage the tire.
Clearly not. This bull hucky seems to happen randomly.
Also note the pressures in that video. Again, they start at 2.20bar!! Wtf. My starting pressures are 1.42 and 1.38. This is so whack, so broken, I don't even know where to turn next.
I don't care how much people want to say this game simulates this, simulates that.."you need to adapt your driving style." No, 🤬 off Charlie. I don't trust a single thing this game is doing at the moment, to be able to decipher what is simulated and what is programming garbage.
- 2,373
- The Chocolate Factory
- ozwheels3
The setup range for tire pressures is definitely very strange and obviously not meant for GT3 cars.My issue wasn't the tire overheating...it was that I couldn't get the front right ABOVE 72C.
Soft tire, track temp of 31C, Monza. I was running absolute minimum pressure in the tire (starting at 1.30bar, when warm it was 1.65bar). If I weaved on straights, I got get heat in it no problem, but doing race laps, it would cool to the high 60s
I guess what I'm getting at is at 31C track temp, if I can't get heat in the soft tire...what the hell do I do when track temp is 21C??
General point for the thread...anyone find this odd:
Optimum pressure is 1.8 bar.
Across all testing I've done so far, I'm seeing about a 0.3 to 0.4 bar increase from starting pressures to working pressures.
The scale for tire pressure adjustment goes from 1.30 to 3.00 bar.
Why can't we go lower than 1.30bar? Is that minimum regulations? Who on earth is going to put 2.95bar starting pressure in a GT3 car??
Scale seems very generic to me, like it was slapped on by someone who didn't actually do tire pressure and temp tests in the game.
Edit:
This just gets better and better.
I spent several hours dialing in those pressures and temps, the GTR at Monza. Got both a hard tire and soft tire setup to work in various temp ranges. For both compounds, I was able to get the tires to sit at about 85-90C, and between 1.8-1.9bar. The pressures would come after 2-3 laps, and then hold rock steady. For both compounds, starting pressures were in the low 1.40bar area.
So after all the testing, I set up a 5 lap race against the AI. Monza, GT3, 32C ambient, 48C track, light cloud. I got with the hard tire setup because of the heat. Race starts, I flip my HUD to check pressures and temps....HUD is showing pressures to be at 2.02bar and climbing.
With the starting pressures I set, I was never able to get close to 2.00bar...how the game got there in simulated warm-up lap is beyond me.
Just going with my gut, I decide to restart the session. This time, I start the race without even going into my tuning menu. When the race starts, I check the HUD, now it's showing 1.80bar front and rear....
I'm feelin' lucky, so I restart the session again. This time, I go to the tune menu and make sure my Monza Hard tire setup is loaded. 1.44 front, 1.42 rear on the left side, pretty much minimums on the right side. I start the race a 3rd time, check the HUD...as the AI is rolling to the line, the HUD shows my starting pressures, but with a greyed out tire icon. Then the icon turns to green, and the pressures jump to 1.86bar on the left side, 1.79bar right rear, and 1.70bar right front - basically exactly like my working pressures in the practice session.
Now, no matter how many times I restart, it loads the propper pressures.
The other thing that's off is the temps. It's starting the race with every tire at 96C. Isnt 96C right on the upper edge of starting to overheat? I thought ideal was in the mid to high 80s, low 90s?
When I had the tire pressure bug mine also started at 2.00 bar.
I’m almost positive the difference in feel from practice and qualifying to the race is down to the tires being preheated for the race. I did a small test at Fuji with the hards at 80F track temperature and the highest my temps got were around 200 and that was only at the left rear. At the beginning of the race the temps were already at 210 all around and the pressure at 1.80. Naturally the tire pressures were about 0.05 higher all around during the race due to the tires being more hot than they ever were during practice. With the hard tires the temperature isn’t as much of a problem because of their wide operating range, but the increase in pressure was noticeable. I will try soft tires tomorrow and do a more in depth test. If the softs start at 210F like the hards that is way too hot for them and I’m confident that is the root cause of cars handling differently in the race.
- 154
- Canada
- DULMAGE5
@IanBell @The_American
From what i am gathering there seems to be a fundamental issue with the tire pressures/temps, or we are missing something... can you guys shed some light on the subject?
I ran a 1 hour race at Daytona (Career night race) in the Audi R8 LMS GT3, ran the soft compound and all tires at 1.30 bar (approx. the hottest i could make the tires) and still couldn't get the tires to stay above 80 degrees Celsius...
From what i am gathering there seems to be a fundamental issue with the tire pressures/temps, or we are missing something... can you guys shed some light on the subject?
I ran a 1 hour race at Daytona (Career night race) in the Audi R8 LMS GT3, ran the soft compound and all tires at 1.30 bar (approx. the hottest i could make the tires) and still couldn't get the tires to stay above 80 degrees Celsius...
- 2,621
- Upstate SC, USA
- GTP_crowhop
Setting the Tires to the lowest Pressures will not give you the desired results. I recommend you read this thread from start to finish.
- 154
- Canada
- DULMAGE5
I have... started the damn thread. However i have went up and down the pressures for 4 hours today trying everything in this thread. Lower the pressures, lower the temp (some exceptions) but for a night race around Daytona i couldn't get them to stay above 80 C, closest i got was high 70's when tire pressures were set at 1.30, the lowest possible. As temp dropped, so did tire temps until they leveled out around 50-60 (depending on sector). temp eventually got down to 11 C, but started at 25 i think, dropped the entire time.
I tried setting the pressure so i reached 30-32 PSI Hot, that just made my tires stay around 40 - 50 C
- 2,373
- The Chocolate Factory
- ozwheels3
- 51,796
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
Yep. I put the links up in the previous page.👍The reality minimum was set at 1.4 IIRC for V8SC after teams started to run really lower than the manufacturer specified and ofc, tyres weren't lasting as long (not that they last much on slicks and on abuse. It's an heavy car really
/edit
Actually it seems to be 1.2 (17PSI) since 2014. Dunlop Recommendation is 18PSI.
/edit2
@twitcher
Tracks like Barcelona a.e., will destroy the front left because well, the way it's designed
You you'll struggle to keep temps on that one down. Obviously the front right won't be quite the same. You just have to make the most out of it and manage that front left in this case.
This is very car/track combo dependent and it's racing. I wish I was an engineer to help but, I'm not
- 2,621
- Upstate SC, USA
- GTP_crowhop
1.40 to 1.37 on the very bottom end for most tracks to start. That's the default in the Huracan. Most of what I've been running has been set in the Fall and that pressure works at almost every track. I need to increase the pressure at Daytona and Le Mans, but that 1.40 is a good base for most circuits.
One thing I have not experienced is lowering the Pressure to increase Temps. That doesn't work. In most cases it seems the temps will be what they'll be. You can increase Pressure up to 1.9 at the start, but that doesn't mean the tires will get hot or be cold. It just means you'll have too much pressure and no grip. Same deal if you start the pressures too low.
I should say, I think every GT3 car I've driven had the same tire pressure/compound as the Huracan. That default pressure may or may not be the case across all GT3 cars. I've not driven them all.
- 2,373
- The Chocolate Factory
- ozwheels3
When I was increasing pressures the middle tire temp decreased as expected. You won’t notice as much of a difference with the inside and outside temps since that part of the tread isn’t supported by the air pressure as much.
@Jack Dulmage What was the date, time and weather conditions for your race at Daytona? I want to try it for myself and see what happens. So far all I’ve experienced is overheating with softs.
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- 6,293
- Canada
Sorry, but you're wrong. Lowering the starting pressure increases the working temp of the tire. This has been tested extensively, it's the way it works.
I did a similar race...25 min at Daytona, time set on x60. The race started with my tires at 96C, but by the end of lap 2, I was in the 70s. At night, dropped into the 50s, and then back into the 70s during the day. My starting pressures were 1.36 in the front 1.32 in the rear.
Increasing the pressures lowers the working temps, and I can't really go any lower with the pressures...already the working pressure is only about 1.70 bar.
I set up a bunch of different races tonight, all offline. Every time I started the session, the first time I started the race, I got the dancing tire indicators, like in the video above. Restarting the session fixed the glitch. The starting pressures were sometimes as high as 2.56bar, and temps as high as 105C
I start the session, start the race, and when I check the HUD, the pressures are whack, and the temps are dancing all over the place. 100% broken.
It's fixable offline by restarting the session, but if this is happening online at all, it could explain a few things.
- 8,460
- Rockay City
They stabilize over time (as you keep driving), so it looks like simply a cold/hot patch that evens out in temp over time while driving. AFAIK, each tire segment is modelled with 11 subsegments, so if one or two is/are different and you start rolling, you will see alternating temps (alternating faster as the speed goes up). As to what caused the difference in temp for a particular segment: that's not clear to me. Could be the standstill at start, could be some other thing.
Would be nice to have a 3d graph of the tire instead of a 2d diagram.
- 2,373
- The Chocolate Factory
- ozwheels3
No it wouldn’t because the optimum hot pressure has already been stated to be around 1.8 by the devs and a cold 1.3-1.4 will get you near 1.8 hot. Even if the pressures were way off and you decreased pressure by 0.1 bar you wouldn’t see a massive change in temperature. If that was the case and 0.1 bar made a big difference then tire temperature could be controlled solely by tire pressures within the setup. We know this isn’t true.
- 154
- Canada
- DULMAGE5
- 6,293
- Canada
...what game are you playing? Yes it does.
Take any gt3 car on slicks to your track of choice. Set the tire pressures to something like 1.40 bar. Do 5-10 laps, watching the temp the whole time. Make not of what temp the tire evens out at.
Go back to the pits, lower the pressures to minimum (1.30 bar), and then do another 5-10 laps. The temps will increase faster and with less effort. They'll also peak higher as well.
If you're talking about a track that has 1 tire very unloaded, the the front right at Monza, then wierd things will happen, and lowering the pressure won't necessarily increase the working temp. However, on loaded tires, lowering initial pressures will increase the working temp of the tire, as there is more flex in the rubber with less pressure in the tire.
Edit
They stabilize sure, but you're reaching if you think it's a temp difference caused by the start. Don't see it in any other situation, standing or rolling starts.They stabilize over time (as you keep driving), so it looks like simply a cold/hot patch that evens out in temp over time while driving. AFAIK, each tire segment is modelled with 11 subsegments, so if one or two is/are different and you start rolling, you will see alternating temps (alternating faster as the speed goes up). As to what caused the difference in temp for a particular segment: that's not clear to me. Could be the standstill at start, could be some other thing.
Would be nice to have a 3d graph of the tire instead of a 2d diagram.
You can also have it happen to you randomly mid race. I've been in online races where the tire indicator just starts flashing randomly, basically saying I've got 4 square tires or whatever.
I appreciate what they're trying to simulate, but I really don't trust that it's being done poperly or accurately, and it seems very glitchy at the moment.
- 6,293
- Canada
I just spent a bunch of time testing.
BMW M6 GT3
Leguna Seca
Oct 5 2017, 3:00pm
24C Ambient, 40C Track, Light Cloud
Slick Hard tire
Default setup, I've never driven this car before today.
I did 5, 5-lap runs. Started with the pressures at 1.30bar, and increased by 0.10bar each new run. I checked the temps across all tires the moment I passed the end of the exit curb of the final corner on the 5th flying lap.
1.30 bar
80/85/87.......100/98/92
81/84/85........ 95/96/92
1.40 bar
77/83/86.........99/96/89
78/81/82.........93/92/88
1.50 bar
77/83/85..........99/96/89
79/82/86..........93/92/87
1.61 bar
74/80/82..........98/95/88
76/80/82..........92/91/86
1.71 bar
76/82/85..........95/92/85
77/81/83..........94/92/86
It's not a massive change, but those numbers tell me that as you increase the starting pressures, on average, working temps go down. That's been my experience across a wide variety of cars in my 96.5hrs played thus far.
I can upload the videos of each test run if you'd like, but that's a lot more effort.
Edit: forgot to add, it does seem like there's an inflection point between 1.61-1.71 bar. I think this is because over inflation is causing extra sliding, which in turn generates more heat. I didn't bother continuing above 1.71, as the car was getting increasingly tough to drive, and the working pressures were massively above the recommended 1.80bar.
Edit 2: also forgot, pay specific attention to the front right tire, which is the most loaded and worked around Leguna Seca. It behaves directly as I said it would...increase in starting pressure results in lower working temps.
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- 2,621
- Upstate SC, USA
- GTP_crowhop
It doesn't matter at all, but these findings are inconsistent with the results I get at Daytona Road Course, Long Beach and Laguna Seca in the Huracan GT3.
If I need to increase Temp in a tire, I increase the Pressure in it. But the first goal for me is to ensure the Tire is up to the correct Pressure. You can have an under Pressured tire that gets hot, but performance is so poor is it silly to do so and it eventually gets cold again. For me the key has been getting the Pressure in the correct range and making small incremental Pressure changes to influence Temps. If my Right Front is too cold at Long Beach, I increase the Pressure. If the Left Rear is too hot at Long Beach, I decrease the Pressure. This has worked well for me.
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